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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm not sure Flash Gits have a place competitively given the existence of Lootas and other units that deal with units the Flash Gits want to be killing but better.

They are 30ppm with T4 and a 4+ save and just for kicks they don't get Klan Traits unless you make a detachment around them, which means you're now investing more heavily into them.

I guess if your meta has a ton of Primaris units they might be useful. Otherwise why are you taking them? Lootas or Tankbustas better kill heavy infantry and vehicles respectively.

E -

the_scotsman wrote:

Wants to be freebootas - Boomdakkas, KBBs, Skrapjets, Mek gunz, flash gits, killa kanz, warbikers, squigbuggies, SAG meks, all kinds of planes.

I disagree with much of this. The KBB is far better as ES as it allows the unit to advance and fire at full BS, basically guarantees the burnas are used from turn 1 and half its weapons don't benefit from +1 to hit. In fact for any of the units that want to be moving up the field as fast as possible I'd say the ES trait is best. So that's everything except SAG Meks, Planes, Mek Guns and Flash Gits in this list.

I disagree, I play mostly a mixed freeboota/ES list and I've pretty much shifted all my buggies from ES to freeboota over a few games.

As you pointed out yourself while discussing the boomdakka snazzwagon in the other thread, even with ES, your odds of getting into 8" range with the boosta-blasta turn 1 is pretty slim if your opponent isn't right on the line, and without ES, it's pretty easy to get it in range turn 2.

The advance and shoot at full is a wash with the freeboota trait, since they also get that after the first unit goes down, which in my experience so far is way more trivial than it seems to ensure with plenty of grot units going first to try and score a kill.

In terms of lootas versus Flash Gitz, I think you are vastly overestimating the difference versus light and heavy infantry. Neither is an anti-tank unit (versus a standard T7 tank lootas deal .018 damage per point and flash gits .016 while moving, .022 while not moving.) but flash gits have a slight advangage versus standard infantry types while on the move (.027 v .028 against GEQ, .013 vs .015 vs MEQ) and then a solid advantage while not moving. And that's completely ignoring the reroll from the ammo runt, the +1BS on the kaptin, and the possibility of Gun Crazy Showoffs going off. Thanks to the 4+ armor they're also twice as durable per point vs ap- or ap-1 weaponry.

Lootas definitely do shine when you invest in the huge unit, screen with an absolute shitton of grots and have them popping the 2cp stratagem to shoot again every turn. But it is a bit silly to claim that you have to invest so much in flash gits when lootas only really become effective when they're a 400 point unit screened by 180 points of grots.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wants to be Bad Moonz - Lootas, big units of tankbustas, max size shoota boyz squads, morkanauts, quad or triple KMB dreads. Also oddly, deffkilla wartrikes, I love the 4++/5+++ build on them, I would take them as my single hq in a bad moonz detachment if I were doing bad moonz spearhead.

Why the morkanaut? Wouldn't it benefit more from deff skulls or freebootas?

Wants to be freebootas - Boomdakkas, KBBs, Skrapjets, Mek gunz, flash gits, killa kanz, warbikers, squigbuggies, SAG meks, all kinds of planes.

I agree with Blackie, the SAG should be deff skulls. I usually get one or two hits out of him (d6 shots), and 4+ would not change that by a lot. Making sure that one hit wounds and deals a lot of damage is worth much more IMO. Too bad the deff skullz warlord trait is limited to 18" though...
Badrukk is also missing from the list - he can serve as both one to trigger the trait (almost guaranteed 3 damage against most targets) or one to benefit from it.

In addition, if you are going for an army with lots of combined arms units (nauts, dreads, shoota boyz, melee oriented buggies), you might want them to be freebootas as well, as the aura works for the fight phase as well.

You can put more than 1 Mek Gun into a unit. They just split into separate units after deployment.

My thoughts on Kulturs.

Goffs: if a unit has a ton of attacks, this is a solid choice. Between Da Lucky Stikk, Skar Boyz, and exploding 6s, this is the Kultur for maximum CC damage.

Evil Sunz: any unit that relies on mobility benefits here. Short range assault and CC units.

Bad Moonz: if your unit has long range and a bunch of shots, here's your home.

Death Skullz: here's where you start thinking about local meta as well as what you want your army to do. In AP- heavy meta, or with units that have a small number of variable damage shots, this is a good choice.

Freebootahz: that +1 is so sweet, but if your opponent ain't running some easy to kill units, you may rarely see it. You don't wanna blow 70-80% of your shots taking down a unit and only have a handful left for that +1.

Snakebites: if your meta is full of multi-wound weapons, you can see some benefit here. Otherwise, you have much better choice.

Why would snakebites be good against multi-wound weapons? The chance goes from saving 1 in 6 shots to 1 in 36 shots when shot at by D2 weapons and to 1 in 216 when taking 3 damage.

It basically multiplies your unit's wounds by 1.2 (before you argue, remember you can save a saved wound again), so you "gain" six additional wounds for a unit of boyz, 3-4 on a naut and 1-2 on a buggy. Unless you are running an army consisting mostly of large units and/or battlewagons, nauts and stompa, the snakebites kulture will do preciously little to you but make you roll lots of dice. IMO The best parts of the snakebite kulture are the relic and the stratagem.

 Jidmah wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wants to be Bad Moonz - Lootas, big units of tankbustas, max size shoota boyz squads, morkanauts, quad or triple KMB dreads. Also oddly, deffkilla wartrikes, I love the 4++/5+++ build on them, I would take them as my single hq in a bad moonz detachment if I were doing bad moonz spearhead.

Why the morkanaut? Wouldn't it benefit more from deff skulls or freebootas?

Wants to be freebootas - Boomdakkas, KBBs, Skrapjets, Mek gunz, flash gits, killa kanz, warbikers, squigbuggies, SAG meks, all kinds of planes.

I agree with Blackie, the SAG should be deff skulls. I usually get one or two hits out of him (d6 shots), and 4+ would not change that by a lot. Making sure that one hit wounds and deals a lot of damage is worth much more IMO. Too bad the deff skullz warlord trait is limited to 18" though...
Badrukk is also missing from the list - he can serve as both one to trigger the trait (almost guaranteed 3 damage against most targets) or one to benefit from it.

In addition, if you are going for an army with lots of combined arms units (nauts, dreads, shoota boyz, melee oriented buggies), you might want them to be freebootas as well, as the aura works for the fight phase as well.

Morka is entirely armed with "wound myself on a 1" weaponry, so I like bad moonz on him to reroll all those 1s.

That's fair, Jid. This is just my personal opinion. I feel like of you're gonna run Snakebitez, you're probably throwing it on your big guys and not on your Boyz. But, like I said, there's better options for ya in the other Kulturz, regardless of what you wanna do.

yeah i have a mork that i run badmoonz because it tends to toss out like 7-8 "gets hot" dice. Its 3D3+1 Kustom Mega weapons, yeah you can only possibly suffer 2 wounds (KMB being a separate instance of "this weapon" compared to the 3D3 KMZ) but i'd rather not suffer one at all if i can help it lol.
It does its job, its a bigass target that tends to draw attention even though its not actually my main threat but it can dish out some damage if allowed to live too long. I think i permanently made my friend gun for it first now after it popped his marine floaty tank thing (always forget what thats called) in 1 round of shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:
- The most common reason to not include mek guns in your list is not owning any or not enough. Despite them getting a lot better, they are still one of the most expensive ways to buy points in the entire game.

Use trukk to convert more and about 15 per gun. Albeit that gives you bubble chucka. But let's see. 4 mek guns=144e and 3 trukk=87e for total of 231e. That gives you 13 mek guns so 4 traktor, 4 smasha gun, 4 KMK and those 3 are all useful. 556 points(I think). Plus one bubble chucka or spare chassis.

Makes it bit more reasonable proposition.

- All mek guns are one datasheet. At 2000 points you cannot fill more than three heavy slots with them - not necessarily an issue, but one to look out for to not get yourself DQ'ed at tournaments.

18 is generally plenty. At 2000 you don't want bazillion of them. Well smasha guns maybe but ah well you got to live with that one. With loota star and all the HQ tax for 3 battallions you will be struggling to fit more than 18 mek guns anyway.

Flashgitz pros and cons:

Pro's
1) BS 4 (Kaptin has BS3)
2) Heavy 3 per model. A unit of 10 puts out 30 shots. With More Dakka you will average about 15 hits (if stationary), 10 of which will be re-rolls of 5 and 6, so about another 7 hits. That is roughly 22 S6, -2 AP, Dmg 2 shots.
3) 4+ armour with two wounds. Still have Nob statline so not too shabby in CC either. Combine with a Painboy for durability
4) If you take Badrukk, you are re-rolling 1's. Combined with More Dakka, that is a huge amount of fire power being generated
5) If a fellow FB unit kills an enemy unit, any stationary Flashgitz within 24', will be BS3!.

Cons:
1) Expensive. 150pts for 5 is a lot of points. I think they're slightly over costed
2) They have to move preferably to the middle of the board to get a good range on everything, meaning they are going to be on BS5 pretty much first turn
3) You ideally want them in a transport, which means they are not benefiting from Badrukk (a transport is probably better for them then he is in the long run)
4) Locked into Freebooters for the most part.
5) If they are not in a transport and focus fired on, they still die pretty easy

the_scotsman wrote:
I disagree, I play mostly a mixed freeboota/ES list and I've pretty much shifted all my buggies from ES to freeboota over a few games.

As you pointed out yourself while discussing the boomdakka snazzwagon in the other thread, even with ES, your odds of getting into 8" range with the boosta-blasta turn 1 is pretty slim if your opponent isn't right on the line, and without ES, it's pretty easy to get it in range turn 2.

The advance and shoot at full is a wash with the freeboota trait, since they also get that after the first unit goes down, which in my experience so far is way more trivial than it seems to ensure with plenty of grot units going first to try and score a kill.

In terms of lootas versus Flash Gitz, I think you are vastly overestimating the difference versus light and heavy infantry. Neither is an anti-tank unit (versus a standard T7 tank lootas deal .018 damage per point and flash gits .016 while moving, .022 while not moving.) but flash gits have a slight advangage versus standard infantry types while on the move (.027 v .028 against GEQ, .013 vs .015 vs MEQ) and then a solid advantage while not moving. And that's completely ignoring the reroll from the ammo runt, the +1BS on the kaptin, and the possibility of Gun Crazy Showoffs going off. Thanks to the 4+ armor they're also twice as durable per point vs ap- or ap-1 weaponry.

Lootas definitely do shine when you invest in the huge unit, screen with an absolute shitton of grots and have them popping the 2cp stratagem to shoot again every turn. But it is a bit silly to claim that you have to invest so much in flash gits when lootas only really become effective when they're a 400 point unit screened by 180 points of grots.

So you’re wrong on a few things here.

An ES KBB is guaranteed to be in 8” flamer range in turn 1 if the stuff it wants to flame is 24” away. This is what I showed on the other thread when discussing the BDSW. Something I never got a chance to respond to you about by the way which was a shame because some Muppet claimed it put the discussion to bed which I don’t believe was true. A none ES KBB is a coin toss if targets 24” away.

Your buggies have to be in range of the unit that scored the kill. Not always ideal or likely if those units are Mek Guns hanging back. It’s also guaranteed and not reliant on a kill so is much more reliable. It’s not a wash at all.

Lootas are literally always in cover. So Flash Gits are not twice as durable in reality. Flash Gits cost far more and their gun is half the range of a Deffgun so they have less valid targets. Why are you shooting either at GEQ or MEQ?

As for your argument around Lootas ‘shining’. They work in many other situations than that you’ve described above. You’ve simply mentioned one of the most effective ways to run them. Also why aren’t you taking Grots? Grots exist in almost every Ork list now, they might as well screen something. It’s unlikely they’ll keep up with your Trukk Flash Gits.
E - format.

Flash Gits suffer from the same problems as many of our units in that they are expensive, not particularly durable and need to push up field to get best bang for their buck. When the majority of the army is pushing up field it’s nice to have a unit that can hang back like Lootas. Lootas have the added flexibility in that they can adopt any clan tactic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

So you’re wrong on a few things here.

An ES KBB is guaranteed to be in 8” flamer range in turn 1 if the stuff it wants to flame is 24” away. This is what I showed on the other thread when discussing the BDSW. Something I never got a chance to respond to you about by the way which was a shame because some
Muppet claimed it put the discussion to bed which I don’t believe was true. A none ES KBB is a coin toss if targets 24” away.

Your buggies have to be in range of the unit that scored the kill. Not always ideal or likely if those units are Mek Guns hanging back. It’s also guaranteed and not reliant on a kill so is much more reliable. It’s not a wash at all.

Lootas are literally always in cover. So Flash Gits are not twice as durable in reality. Flash Gits cost far more and their gun is half the range of a Deffgun so they have less valid targets. Why are you shooting either at GEQ or MEQ?

As for your argument around Lootas ‘shining’. They work in many other situations than that you’ve described above. You’ve simply mentioned one of the most effective ways to run them. Also why aren’t you taking Grots? Grots exist in almost every Ork list now, they might as well screen something. It’s unlikely they’ll keep up with your Trukk Flash Gits.

Flash Gits suffer from the same problems as many of our units in that they are expensive, not particularly durable and need to push up field to get best bang for their buck. When the majority of the army is pushing up field it’s nice to have a unit that can hang back like Lootas. Lootas have the added flexibility in that they can adopt any clan tactic.

Lootas don't really shine in any other circumstances besides the loota bomb, though. If you're not dumping everything into them, they perform worse against heavy targets than Flash Gitz (almost half the output vs Knight equivalents, in fact), with the only instance they're better being when the Gitz have to move and both are shooting at a Russ equivalent (when stationary, the Gitz win), and hugely worse than either Tankbustas (significantly less than half the output vs. anything but a RIS Knight, which the tankbustas still almost doubling their output) or Mek Gunz (who do better still).

As to why you'd be shooting either at infantry, Tankbustas simply trounce both if you're looking to blow holes in armor (even their vanilla shooting beats Showin' Off Lootas). Moving, Jumping, advancing+More Dakka, or hitching a ride gives them plenty of range to get to the targets that matter, so the range is only relevant if they're trying to cross majority of the table diagonally and a transport/Jump isn't available.

 Trimarius wrote:

Lootas don't really shine in any other circumstances besides the loota bomb, though. If you're not dumping everything into them, they perform worse against heavy targets than Flash Gitz (almost half the output vs Knight equivalents, in fact), with the only instance they're better being when the Gitz have to move and both are shooting at a Russ equivalent (when stationary, the Gitz win), and hugely worse than either Tankbustas (significantly less than half the output vs. anything but a RIS Knight, which the tankbustas still almost doubling their output) or Mek Gunz (who do better still).

As to why you'd be shooting either at infantry, Tankbustas simply trounce both if you're looking to blow holes in armor (even their vanilla shooting beats Showin' Off Lootas). Moving, Jumping, advancing+More Dakka, or hitching a ride gives them plenty of range to get to the targets that matter, so the range is only relevant if they're trying to cross majority of the table diagonally and a transport/Jump isn't available.

If you see my first post in this thread you’ll notice that I stated Tank Bustas are the better AV option so no argument from me there.

Lootas have twice the range of Flash Gits who will always be moving to fire at their target. I’ve never had Flash Gits hitting at BS 4+ so I’m not sure why were using this fictional comparative.

There are better units point for point at clearing MEQ and GEQ than Flash Gits (again stated in my first post). Tank Bustas and Mek Guns are better AV. I’m struggling to see why some posters are suggesting Flash Gits are competitive when the same posters claimed other units were not competitive for exactly the same reasons? Lootas can at least sit on/near an objective in cover trying to ping wounds off most anything on the table. They benefit more from More Dakka (because if they move they still hit/explode on 5s) which is useful if Da Jumping them. They are more durable point for point assuming they’re in cover and they’re always in cover. They better utilise the Loot It stratagem as they have a chance to refund the CP. They’re not optimal but they offer more for them than Flash Gits.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Trimarius wrote:

Lootas don't really shine in any other circumstances besides the loota bomb, though. If you're not dumping everything into them, they perform worse against heavy targets than Flash Gitz (almost half the output vs Knight equivalents, in fact), with the only instance they're better being when the Gitz have to move and both are shooting at a Russ equivalent (when stationary, the Gitz win), and hugely worse than either Tankbustas (significantly less than half the output vs. anything but a RIS Knight, which the tankbustas still almost doubling their output) or Mek Gunz (who do better still).

As to why you'd be shooting either at infantry, Tankbustas simply trounce both if you're looking to blow holes in armor (even their vanilla shooting beats Showin' Off Lootas). Moving, Jumping, advancing+More Dakka, or hitching a ride gives them plenty of range to get to the targets that matter, so the range is only relevant if they're trying to cross majority of the table diagonally and a transport/Jump isn't available.

If you see my first post in this thread you’ll notice that I stated Tank Bustas are the better AV option so no argument from me there.

Lootas have twice the range of Flash Gits who will always be moving to fire at their target. I’ve never had Flash Gits hitting at BS 4+ so I’m not sure why were using this fictional comparative.

There are better units point for point at clearing MEQ and GEQ than Flash Gits (again stated in my first post). Tank Bustas and Mek Guns are better AV. I’m struggling to see why some posters are suggesting Flash Gits are competitive when the same posters claimed other units were not competitive for exactly the same reasons? Lootas can at least sit on/near an objective in cover trying to ping wounds off most anything on the table. They benefit more from More Dakka (because if they move they still hit/explode on 5s) which is useful if Da Jumping them. They are more durable point for point assuming they’re in cover and they’re always in cover. They better utilise the Loot It stratagem as they have a chance to refund the CP. They’re not optimal but they offer more for them than Flash Gits.

I wasn't advocating people run out and buy loads of Flash Gitz, I was just pointing out that they're not worse than Lootas, a unit that's having something of a resurgence. They do more damage per point to most things (even assuming the Lootas are Badmoons and the Flash Gitz aren't benefiting from the +1), and only slightly less than Lootas in their worst comparison: T7 while having to move while the Lootas don't, which while likely to matter turn 1 against an army with these sorts of targets (IG parking lots, for example, aren't known for rushing you), is less likely to in later turns, as a four foot diameter circle on a 6x4 board covers a good amount of the field once you've moved up. They're tougher by default, but neither is particularly resilient. Lootas are better suited to mobbing up into one giant, stratagem hungry Badmoons blob (which is still outperformed by other choices at any one task), but Flash Gitz are better suited to msu style operations.

In the end, like most medium caliber weapons, neither is ideal at clearing away chaff or at handling heavy armor, so end up only being okay at whichever they're doing at the time.

So, really, pick whichever one you like better, if you feel like using either. It turns out that sweet pirate hats are a perfectly valid reason to pick them.