Go back to some of the old small arm stats?

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**Bharring**

People don't even spend points on the screens as much anymore. IG is mostly down to the Loyal 32 - while Guardsmen are still 4ppm.

Fixing them is hard. Making them OP enough to be seen is easy. They aren't the same thing.

**Martel732**

10-11 ppm is about right for a tac marine. That fixes at least 50% of their problems in my view. Close enough for a model on the way out. And bring melta down from 17. That's a total joke when 40K is now Invuln save: the game. (Except Imperium)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bharring wrote:
People don't even spend points on the screens as much anymore. IG is mostly down to the Loyal 32 - while Guardsmen are still 4ppm.

Fixing them is hard. Making them OP enough to be seen is easy. They aren't the same thing.

I mean if you wanna point out where my Plague Marine fix was OP feel free. I've given multiple fixes for Tactical Marines over the course of many threads:
1. 12 points
2. A rule for "Bolt" weapons (though I concede this is something hard to agree on)
3. You get your Special or Heavy at 5 dudes, the opposite at 7, and then a weapon of your choice at 10 to better help Special/Heavy saturation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
10-11 ppm is about right for a tac marine. That fixes at least 50% of their problems in my view. Close enough for a model on the way out. And bring melta down from 17. That's a total joke when 40K is now Invuln save: the game. (Except Imperium)

My theory?
I think GW priced it like that because of the Assault profile (which they think will be used) which is significantly less valuable than it was in previous editions.

**Martel732**

Honestly, the assault profile has been bad since late 3rd. Maybe it worked in 4th, I forget. But 5th ed brought about leafblowers, mass plasma, mass melta, and parking lots. And SW that got TRIPLE the attacks if charged. GW has been out to lunch on marine punching for a long, long time.

**pelicaniforce**

Sir Heckington wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
It’s true the armor modifiers have lots of problems and it prevents people from house ruling the Good Rule:

Haravikk wrote:
shyzo wrote:
If you could change 5 things in the core rules, what would those be?

Hmm, tough to decide what my top 5 would be, but here's a few:

1. Armour Saves are only negated if AP is less than the armour value, if AP is equal it's a -2 penalty to the save, and if the AP is one worse (higher) then it's a -1. This means that AP4 weapons reduce marines to 4+, while AP3 reduces them to 5+, and AP2 or better punches straight through. It makes weapons with an AP value that's close a bit more useful, particularly AP4 weapons which are currently pretty underwhelming thanks to the large amounts of 3+ armour out there.

This is nice.

So against guardsmen:

Bolters would go from -0 ap to -2 ap
Heavy bolters would go from -1 ap to -2 ap
Stalker Boltguns would stay the same
Plasma would stay the same

Against Tau:
Bolters would become Ap-1
Heavy bolters would go from -1 ap to -2 ap
Stalker Boltrifles would go to -3 AP
Plasma guns would stay the same

Against Marines:
Bolters would stay the same
Heavy Bolters would stay the same.
Stalker Boltrifles would stay the same
Plasma Guns would go to -4 AP

I like it. I really like it actually. It would make terminators SV2 really meaningful, while still not being completely invincible to everything that's not AP2.

Obviously the best part is you don’t really need a “bolter rule” because the -1 or -2 is right in the profile.

Oh yeah people really prefer playing with it. The best part for marines is that bolters are supposed to do something against 5+ and 6+ but unlike second edition ap-1 that people ask for they don’t do stupid things to terminator armor and like monoliths. It balances pretty much everywhere and you don’t even have to repoint things to adjust for it you just play with your normal list.