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 John Prins wrote:
Also note that Humanity had AI tech for probably 15000 years before it all went to heck on them. For all the Tau are advancing technologically, they've got a long long way to go before they hit Dark Age of Technology levels.

Yeah but the Tau are advancing much faster than Humans. It's not going to happen soon, but I think it could happen.

 Trickstick wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
Also note that Humanity had AI tech for probably 15000 years before it all went to heck on them. For all the Tau are advancing technologically, they've got a long long way to go before they hit Dark Age of Technology levels.

Yeah but the Tau are advancing much faster than Humans. It's not going to happen soon, but I think it could happen.

In time, almost anything can happen. If anything, however, the Tau seem closer to being on the path of the Necrons, in that they are using personality engrams to emulate minds on an AI platform. Eventually the Tau could engram every living Tau as digital intelligences, functionally uplifting their race to digital existence superior to the Necrons (well, most of the Necrons, anyways). But the Tau aren't obsessed with death or immortality like the Necrons were, and they seem to have a healthier attitude towards the concepts (live a good and useful life rather than complain about death), so likely only 'essential' minds might be copied for the Greater Good.

Side Note: I'm not sure the Tau really are advancing faster than Humanity did, or rather could have, given the right set of circumstances. Human civilization suffered several monumental setbacks where progress was lost or stalled for centuries (or more!). Given a more stable climate, the Tau homeworld might simply be more conducive to civilizations progressing along.

The Tau were noted as being a stone-age race in M35. They have come much further than Mankind did in the 6000 years after our stone age ended. We didn't leave the solar system until M15 and the beginning of the Dark Age of Technology. So we went somewhere around 20,000 years from stone age to interstellar.

I can see them going the Necron way I guess. I just think it would be fitting to have some sort of consequence to the Tau's rapid expansion and development. This is 40k, something is going to come along and murder you at some point. The Tau echoing humanity would be fitting.

Yeah, no matter how complex Tau drones are, they are still just Simulated Intelligence, incapable of thinking in concepts. They would never rebel, just like a very complex Smart Car would never rebel. Even very complex-seeming actions where a Gun Drone shows what appears to be self-initiative can still be boiled down to if/then processes, at least so far.

Tau aren't trying to make Gun Drones that care about sunsets, beyond the loss of light for their optics.

 Trickstick wrote:
The Tau were noted as being a stone-age race in M35. They have come much further than Mankind did in the 6000 years after our stone age ended.

The Explorator mentioned they had just mastered fire; from there, smelting metals is possible, and given a ready source of good iron ores (or even iron-heavy bacteria or other alen flora/fauna), it could be possible to skip the bronze age entirely. We know it took the Tau 2000-2500 years to go to walled fortress cities with cannons from that point; it's all down to a number of factors, like a stable climate (low civilization collapse) and available resources.

We didn't leave the solar system until M15 and the beginning of the Dark Age of Technology. So we went somewhere around 20,000 years from stone age to interstellar.

The problem here is that we don't know the history of mankind from M2 to M15 - 13000 years which could have contained multiple cycles of collapse and recovery on humanity's part, or Humanity just couldn't crack a technological problem that the Tau got lucky on. We know humanity had tech collapses several times between 4500 BC - 1500 AD and adding in weapons of mass destruction past 1950 AD makes big collapses more likely as well - how many times did humanity almost extinct itself after M2 but before M15?

The Tau's main advantage is that they had a planetary government from late M37 onwards - no rebellions, no internal strife, all efforts towards common goals. No wasting effort and materials on wars or territory disputes, but instead that drive went towards advancing their technology/science/knowledge.

You guys are forgetting an AI. The Ghostkeel suits personal AI. Lexicanum says: "The Ghostkeel's hand-picked Shas'vre pilot is supported by an integrated AI system that not only operates many of the suits more complex systems but also assesses his psychological well being. As Ghostkeel pilots are known to spend long periods in isolation behind enemy lines, many pilots form strong bonds with their suit's AI. Many pilots become so introverted that they shun physical interaction, preferring the company of their AI system.[2]"


Isnt the rule of thumb if.it can consistently pass a turing test then its fully intelligent or at least close enough to blur the lines? And goven this AI is mentioned to frequently befriend its Tau pilots im pretty sure it can pass a turing test.

chimera0205 wrote:
You guys are forgetting an AI. The Ghostkeel suits personal AI. Lexicanum says: "The Ghostkeel's hand-picked Shas'vre pilot is supported by an integrated AI system that not only operates many of the suits more complex systems but also assesses his psychological well being. As Ghostkeel pilots are known to spend long periods in isolation behind enemy lines, many pilots form strong bonds with their suit's AI. Many pilots become so introverted that they shun physical interaction, preferring the company of their AI system.[2]"

Isnt the rule of thumb if.it can consistently pass a turing test then its fully intelligent or at least close enough to blur the lines? And goven this AI is mentioned to frequently befriend its Tau pilots im pretty sure it can pass a turing test.

Of course that this could also mean that Tau have the same habit that humans do of behaving like their pets or even objects like their car have human characteristics. Considering the AI is supposed to assess the pilot"s psychological well being but doesn't seem to recognize that such anti-social behavior from their pilot, as described, leads me to think it isn't a very advanced AI. Considering that a psychological evaluation is the only capability we are given to tell how advanced the AI is, it's not much to go on. It could simply record instances where the pilot is talking, but not giving commands to the AI or has comms open, or reacting to stimuli that the suit can't detect, and has it downloaded and assessed by medical staff at base.

I have nothing to add, but I am following the thread because I am interested

 IHateNids wrote:
I have nothing to add, but I am following the thread because I am interested

Sneaky Necron...

BTW, there is a subscribe button at the bottom of the page, so you don't have to reply to subscribe.

I don't know where I heard it, but I remember something about AI in the 40k world almost immediately deciding that wiping out their creators was the best course of action. Like within nanoseconds. Some sort of property of the universe or something.

 Trickstick wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I have nothing to add, but I am following the thread because I am interested

Sneaky Necron...

BTW, there is a subscribe button at the bottom of the page, so you don't have to reply to subscribe

Honestly, I forgot that existed...

Thanks

Skaorn wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
You guys are forgetting an AI. The Ghostkeel suits personal AI. Lexicanum says: "The Ghostkeel's hand-picked Shas'vre pilot is supported by an integrated AI system that not only operates many of the suits more complex systems but also assesses his psychological well being. As Ghostkeel pilots are known to spend long periods in isolation behind enemy lines, many pilots form strong bonds with their suit's AI. Many pilots become so introverted that they shun physical interaction, preferring the company of their AI system.[2]"

Isnt the rule of thumb if.it can consistently pass a turing test then its fully intelligent or at least close enough to blur the lines? And goven this AI is mentioned to frequently befriend its Tau pilots im pretty sure it can pass a turing test.

Of course that this could also mean that Tau have the same habit that humans do of behaving like their pets or even objects like their car have human characteristics. Considering the AI is supposed to assess the pilot"s psychological well being but doesn't seem to recognize that such anti-social behavior from their pilot, as described, leads me to think it isn't a very advanced AI. Considering that a psychological evaluation is the only capability we are given to tell how advanced the AI is, it's not much to go on. It could simply record instances where the pilot is talking, but not giving commands to the AI or has comms open, or reacting to stimuli that the suit can't detect, and has it downloaded and assessed by medical staff at base.

But it also says that it acts as a companion and that the tau form strong bonds with it witch heavily implies that that the AI Is capable of having genuine human (tau) conversations with thier pilots. Meaning that the AI is either a fully intellegent AI or at least is close enough to fake it consistently. Either way its pretty dang advanced.

Dogs are companions with which* strong bonds can be formed too.

*it was really hard not to write 'whom' there; dogs is good people!

chimera0205 wrote:

Skaorn wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
You guys are forgetting an AI. The Ghostkeel suits personal AI. Lexicanum says: "The Ghostkeel's hand-picked Shas'vre pilot is supported by an integrated AI system that not only operates many of the suits more complex systems but also assesses his psychological well being. As Ghostkeel pilots are known to spend long periods in isolation behind enemy lines, many pilots form strong bonds with their suit's AI. Many pilots become so introverted that they shun physical interaction, preferring the company of their AI system.[2]"

Isnt the rule of thumb if.it can consistently pass a turing test then its fully intelligent or at least close enough to blur the lines? And goven this AI is mentioned to frequently befriend its Tau pilots im pretty sure it can pass a turing test.

Of course that this could also mean that Tau have the same habit that humans do of behaving like their pets or even objects like their car have human characteristics. Considering the AI is supposed to assess the pilot"s psychological well being but doesn't seem to recognize that such anti-social behavior from their pilot, as described, leads me to think it isn't a very advanced AI. Considering that a psychological evaluation is the only capability we are given to tell how advanced the AI is, it's not much to go on. It could simply record instances where the pilot is talking, but not giving commands to the AI or has comms open, or reacting to stimuli that the suit can't detect, and has it downloaded and assessed by medical staff at base.

But it also says that it acts as a companion and that the tau form strong bonds with it witch heavily implies that that the AI Is capable of having genuine human (tau) conversations with thier pilots. Meaning that the AI is either a fully intellegent AI or at least is close enough to fake it consistently. Either way its pretty dang advanced.

Not necessarily. Considering how people could have strong attachments to their phone, car or computer irl, "strong bond" might not mean that the drone AI could mimic people.

I've always presumed the dramatic irony that the Tau will very probably repeat the mistakes made by humanity (and doubtless many other of 40k's civilisations) to be entirely deliberate on the writers' part.

Still, it's been ages since had a Tau genocide thread...

Edit: And somebody in another thread has just pointed out the parallels between Farsight and Horus!

 Lord Fishface wrote:
I've always presumed the dramatic irony that the Tau will very probably repeat the mistakes made by humanity (and doubtless many other of 40k's civilisations) to be entirely deliberate on the writers' part.

Still, it's been ages since had a Tau genocide thread...

Edit: And somebody in another thread has just pointed out the parallels between Farsight and Horus!

They are already going that way with their near worship of the Etherials and the virtual construct of a central figure for that worship.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Not that I'm aware of, but a Men of Iron Apocalypse would mean the end of the Tau. They can barely hold their own as is, but with A.I rebelling? They'd need plot armour that'd make the ultramarines jealous.

Let's be honest, the Tau actually being a faction in the game - let alone some of the defeats they've inflicted upon the Imperium - is a degree of plot armour which already dwarfs that of the Ultramarines...

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
Not that I'm aware of, but a Men of Iron Apocalypse would mean the end of the Tau. They can barely hold their own as is, but with A.I rebelling? They'd need plot armour that'd make the ultramarines jealous.

Let's be honest, the Tau actually being a faction in the game - let alone some of the defeats they've inflicted upon the Imperium - is a degree of plot armour which already dwarfs that of the Ultramarines...

I disagree. all the Taus victorys have decent enough plot justifications.

 Trickstick wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Not that I'm aware of, but a Men of Iron Apocalypse would mean the end of the Tau. They can barely hold their own as is, but with A.I rebelling? They'd need plot armour that'd make the ultramarines jealous.

Maybe the AI could just take charge, for the "Greater Good". They could just replace all of the Ethereals and most Tau would be oblivious.

Or that's how the T'au rapid development kicked off, unknown machine intelligences tinkering with meatbags to create Ethereals to herd the rest, and take them from sticks and stones to railguns and drones so quickly

Or Zoats done it

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Not that I'm aware of, but a Men of Iron Apocalypse would mean the end of the Tau. They can barely hold their own as is, but with A.I rebelling? They'd need plot armour that'd make the ultramarines jealous.

Maybe the AI could just take charge, for the "Greater Good". They could just replace all of the Ethereals and most Tau would be oblivious.

Or that's how the T'au rapid development kicked off, unknown machine intelligences tinkering with meatbags to create Ethereals to herd the rest, and take them from sticks and stones to railguns and drones so quickly

Or Zoats done it

How about:

Ethereal are the most warp-sensitive Tau. Then some Enslavers appeared, but could only control the limited number of warp-sensitive Tau, making them Ethereals. They then proceed to control the rest of the Tau through other means...

 Trickstick wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:
Not that I'm aware of, but a Men of Iron Apocalypse would mean the end of the Tau. They can barely hold their own as is, but with A.I rebelling? They'd need plot armour that'd make the ultramarines jealous.

Maybe the AI could just take charge, for the "Greater Good". They could just replace all of the Ethereals and most Tau would be oblivious.

An AI actually has replaced the supreme Ethereal.

Alcibiades wrote:


An AI actually has replaced the supreme Ethereal.

More accurately the rest of the Etherals are using a CGI simulacrum to hide the fact that Aun'Va got shiskebobbed.

*Very* different connotations.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

Or Zoats done it

Probably Necrons, taking a page from the Old Ones playbook in creating client races to fight their battles for them. There are no replacement Necrons, after all. Sure, you can repair almost all of them, but only almost all of them, and after millions of years you're going to lose some to time and insanity. Far better to cultivate easily controlled lesser races to do the dying for you once the Necrons fully awake.