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This guy would be pretty decent if Raptors could take a melee weapon worth a damn, but they can't so he isn't.

The guy is a Fabius Bile carbon copy of Kayvaan Shrike.. with an added gun spear, possibly looted from Argel Tal who looted it from a custodes.

he is as disappointing for Chaos as Shrike is for imperial ...

top and bottom of the issue is .. Play Ultras or GTFO it seems

My Ravens are now even more Sad and Emo considering this looks like Shrike won't get Primaris'd

It's all a plot to make regular CSM into a joke both fluffwise and gameplaywise.

Massive ld-debuff stacking is kind of meme-build, it can utterly crush some armies while other armies are completely unaffected. I guess this is just realistic, fluffy. However Lascannons being able to pierce heaviest armors and shields while effectively stopping at one ork/cultist/termagant. Maybe the organic matter just disperses laser in more effective nullifying manner. They should just start removing armors from Chaos Tanks and putting layers of cultists there as they seem more efficient.

I guess Warp Talons could have been ok with Haarken if they had Raptor keyword, but they don't. Using raptors for melee... They just don't do much.
Do also note that thanks to the magic of RAI, Raptor Champion cannot take both Combi-weapon and Power weapon. This ruling is markedly different from SM who are allowed to take both Combi-weapon and Melee weapon.

Main problem however is Raptors are expensive mobile CSM who don't even have much damage output. Thus they have same problem as normal MEQ units - most anti-horde weapons in the game are point-by-point inflicted casualties more efficient against MEQ than actual horde type units.

 techsoldaten wrote:

That's incorrect.

He allows units to reroll all hits in melee. That's better than a generic Chaos Lord. Unless you are taking Raptors for shooting, which would be foolish, he's better on that front.

The reason you do this is so you can also take Abaddon in the backfield for rerolls on all shooting. Now you have a deep strike threat for a Chaos Gunline.

He allows you to re-roll all hits for Raptors. He provides nothing for your rank and file troops, unless he also has the Chaos Lord generic re-roll 1s, which seems unlikely.

If he's 120 points, sure, I guess he's reasonably priced, it doesn't change the fact that he's a mediocre character at best. I'd still probably take a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack and an artifact of my choice rather than this character's overly elaborate pistol/spear.

Yes, you could use him as the deep strike threat in some kind of Black Legion gunline. Of course, more cheaply, effectively, and flexibly you could include a Khornate Daemons detachment that does the job better.

Also, his LD aura is -1 at 18", some mentioned the -3 LD, which I assume is calculating in something I'm not thinking of like additional Raptor squads around him or Night Lords or something. Which, yes, would have some nice synergy if you had decided that the Raptors/Night Lords, LD debuffing was going to be part of your army's thing, and yes, he would amplify that very effectively. It's still a fidgety mechanic that doesn't affect entire factions within the game and is negated by 2 CP.

In conclusion, my opinion remains, he's trash.

How do you know he's trash when we haven't seen all his rules and weapons yet?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do you know he's trash when we haven't seen all his rules and weapons yet?

I don't know, I have strong suspicions.

1) He's not dishing out enough damage to be a real threat to any significant units, so he's basically a bully unit that you'll use to pick on scrubs, which, given his LD debuff and such is probably what he should be doing. However, basic CSM units do bully work just fine.
2) He's probably not bringing the standard Chaos Lord re-roll 1s to the table, so I have to pack an additional Lord just to provide that or bring Abaddon, sure, not the worst choice, I guess.
3) He's not providing re-rolls to wound, so I have to find an additional HQ slot for an Exalted Champion to tag along with him to have any hope of those Raptors accomplishing anything. Sub-note on this, I can't give him a jump pack, so I need to figure out how I'm getting him there also.

I guess I just see the need to surround him with a bunch of extra stuff to optimize his performance. But sure, if you're looking for a relatively cheap jump lord who can't actually go toe-to-toe with anything tougher than a 2nd tier HQ slot, sure, he's super.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do you know he's trash when we haven't seen all his rules and weapons yet?

I don't know, I have strong suspicions.

1) He's not dishing out enough damage to be a real threat to any significant units, so he's basically a bully unit that you'll use to pick on scrubs, which, given his LD debuff and such is probably what he should be doing. However, basic CSM units do bully work just fine.
2) He's probably not bringing the standard Chaos Lord re-roll 1s to the table, so I have to pack an additional Lord just to provide that or bring Abaddon, sure, not the worst choice, I guess.
3) He's not providing re-rolls to wound, so I have to find an additional HQ slot for an Exalted Champion to tag along with him to have any hope of those Raptors accomplishing anything. Sub-note on this, I can't give him a jump pack, so I need to figure out how I'm getting him there also.

I guess I just see the need to surround him with a bunch of extra stuff to optimize his performance. But sure, if you're looking for a relatively cheap jump lord who can't actually go toe-to-toe with anything tougher than a 2nd tier HQ slot, sure, he's super.

Your suspicions are literally just guesswork, and not exactly educated guesswork at that. You have basically no information to even make a guess about the model's performance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your suspicions are literally just guesswork, and not exactly educated guesswork at that. You have basically no information to even make a guess about the model's performance.

I have his statline, his weapons, a couple of his special abilities, and his legion tag. Unless he's hiding a powerfist I'm unaware of somewhere, I have more than enough information to come to a conclusion.

But hey, as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong, however, until that is proven conclusively, I return to my previously stated opinion.

He's trash.

Haarken Worldclaimer; reason #4 raptors should have 2 attacks baseline, alongside being fluff-wise a more elite unit than assault marines, possibly being daemon-possessed, and just in general Chaos Marines probably deserving 2A apiece.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your suspicions are literally just guesswork, and not exactly educated guesswork at that. You have basically no information to even make a guess about the model's performance.

I have his statline, his weapons, a couple of his special abilities, and his legion tag. Unless he's hiding a powerfist I'm unaware of somewhere, I have more than enough information to come to a conclusion.

But hey, as usual, I'm happy to be proven wrong, however, until that is proven conclusively, I return to my previously stated opinion.

He's trash.

You have the shooting profile of one weapon, and stats wise he has an extra attack over regular Lords, which you might've noticed. Or not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have the shooting profile of one weapon, and stats wise he has an extra attack over regular Lords, which you might've noticed. Or not.

I have the shooting profile of one weapon and know the profile of his melee weapon. So he's got an extra attack, so what? He's got the option of S4 with re-rolls to wound or S5 with no re-rolls to wound.

I guess I'm just not getting what everybody's so excited about. Given the information made available to us currently I am unable to draw any conclusion other than, he's trash.

Is he cheaper than a style of Chaos Lord I wouldn't bother fielding anyway? Probably. But being cheap and bad is not getting him off the bench, sorry.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have the shooting profile of one weapon, and stats wise he has an extra attack over regular Lords, which you might've noticed. Or not.

I have the shooting profile of one weapon and know the profile of his melee weapon. So he's got an extra attack, so what? He's got the option of S4 with re-rolls to wound or S5 with no re-rolls to wound.

I guess I'm just not getting what everybody's so excited about. Given the information made available to us currently I am unable to draw any conclusion other than, he's trash.

Is he cheaper than a style of Chaos Lord I wouldn't bother fielding anyway? Probably. But being cheap and bad is not getting him off the bench, sorry.

you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

 Togusa wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You have the shooting profile of one weapon, and stats wise he has an extra attack over regular Lords, which you might've noticed. Or not.

I have the shooting profile of one weapon and know the profile of his melee weapon. So he's got an extra attack, so what? He's got the option of S4 with re-rolls to wound or S5 with no re-rolls to wound.

I guess I'm just not getting what everybody's so excited about. Given the information made available to us currently I am unable to draw any conclusion other than, he's trash.

Is he cheaper than a style of Chaos Lord I wouldn't bother fielding anyway? Probably. But being cheap and bad is not getting him off the bench, sorry.

you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

Exactly. It's very rare for Special Character Marines to not have melee weapons doing over D1.

 Togusa wrote:


you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

I included theoretical stabby spear stats in my previous post, go reading! Like, S4 with re-rolls for damage (Lightning Claw) or S5 with no re-rolls (stabby spear), for reals!

I know that if his lightning claw did anything particularly special it probably wouldn't just be called a lightning claw. Chaos especially is very fond of grand and dreadful names for their favorite stabby bits, note the spear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. It's very rare for Special Character Marines to not have melee weapons doing over D1.

Yes, as noted, his stabby spear does D3 damage.

He's still trash.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

I included theoretical stabby spear stats in my previous post, go reading! Like, S4 with re-rolls for damage (Lightning Claw) or S5 with no re-rolls (stabby spear), for reals!

I know that if his lightning claw did anything particularly special it probably wouldn't just be called a lightning claw. Chaos especially is very fond of grand and dreadful names for their favorite stabby bits, note the spear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. It's very rare for Special Character Marines to not have melee weapons doing over D1.

Yes, as noted, his stabby spear does D3 damage.

He's still trash.

Well Lucius has just a straight up Master Crafted Sword.

Quite honestly the only character I can think of with some lame weapon is the Deathwatch dude with a regular Power Sword.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Lucius has just a straight up Master Crafted Sword.

Quite honestly the only character I can think of with some lame weapon is the Deathwatch dude with a regular Power Sword.

Pretty sure you just made my point.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well Lucius has just a straight up Master Crafted Sword.

Quite honestly the only character I can think of with some lame weapon is the Deathwatch dude with a regular Power Sword.

Pretty sure you just made my point.

By saying that the only character with a dinky melee weapon is from the Deathwatch?

I wish he was a night lord rather than give the Black Legion yet another character. Spread the love GW.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:


Not the end of the world. Hopefully Angron will arrive sooner or later with a satisfying World Eaters codex.

Ha! I see what you did there (although I think unintentionally)

Well, there was a chaos lord in warhammer fantasy last time called Valkia the bloody. She was actually a pretty interesting chaos champion who wielded a spear. Maybe this Haarkan can be a better Valkia.

I wouldn't say I am disappointed with his stats but there are too many factions which simply don't care about freakshow leadership shenanigans.

Also, I hope that spear has a good melee profile, I have only seen the ranged profile so far.

I get the feeling Haarken is a bit of a Scooby Doo villian who is set to fail in order to showcase the new Papa Smurf.

If his spear has a melee profile that is str 9 attack with a flat 3 damage at ap-3, I would be pretty interested. Having a CSM variant of Smash captains would be cool.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
By saying that the only character with a dinky melee weapon is from the Deathwatch?

Both really, Lucius' weapon, despite the rather banal name of Master Crafted Sword, is actually a special weapon. Obviously in Lucius' case it's a Master Crafted Sword because it relates to his character background as a master swordsman, but the point is that it is very specifically named, it's not just called a Sword or a Power Sword. Likewise, the new chaos character got a Lightning Claw, not a master crafted Lightning Claw, not the Demon's Talons, just a Lightning Claw, just like the Deathwatch character and his dinky Power Sword.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
By saying that the only character with a dinky melee weapon is from the Deathwatch?

Both really, Lucius' weapon, despite the rather banal name of Master Crafted Sword, is actually a special weapon. Obviously in Lucius' case it's a Master Crafted Sword because it relates to his character background as a master swordsman, but the point is that it is very specifically named, it's not just called a Sword or a Power Sword. Likewise, the new chaos character got a Lightning Claw, not a master crafted Lightning Claw, not the Demon's Talons, just a Lightning Claw, just like the Deathwatch character and his dinky Power Sword.

Well they referred to it as HIS Lightning Claw. They never gave the profile name.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they referred to it as HIS Lightning Claw. They never gave the profile name.

Ok, sure, you know what, at this point, believe what you want. He's going to be amazing, a superhuman example of the perfection Chaos expects from every commander, a game-changing threat, worth every penny of investment.

Let me know how it goes.

I'm not inclined to spend money for more trash.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they referred to it as HIS Lightning Claw. They never gave the profile name.

Ok, sure, you know what, at this point, believe what you want. He's going to be amazing, a superhuman example of the perfection Chaos expects from every commander, a game-changing threat, worth every penny of investment.

Let me know how it goes.

I'm not inclined to spend money for more trash.

Oh I'm sure he'll probably just be mediocre.

Good news is Raptors went down to 15 points. So there's that I guess.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

I included theoretical stabby spear stats in my previous post, go reading! Like, S4 with re-rolls for damage (Lightning Claw) or S5 with no re-rolls (stabby spear), for reals!

I know that if his lightning claw did anything particularly special it probably wouldn't just be called a lightning claw. Chaos especially is very fond of grand and dreadful names for their favorite stabby bits, note the spear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. It's very rare for Special Character Marines to not have melee weapons doing over D1.

Yes, as noted, his stabby spear does D3 damage.

He's still trash.

You don't know what he does yet. Do you know that his lighting claw doesn't have a name? THERE IS NO FULL DATA SHEET FOR HIM.

 Togusa wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


you do realize that spears can stab in addition to being thrown don't you?

you know what a lightning claw does, but do you know what HIS lightning claw might do?

I included theoretical stabby spear stats in my previous post, go reading! Like, S4 with re-rolls for damage (Lightning Claw) or S5 with no re-rolls (stabby spear), for reals!

I know that if his lightning claw did anything particularly special it probably wouldn't just be called a lightning claw. Chaos especially is very fond of grand and dreadful names for their favorite stabby bits, note the spear.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Exactly. It's very rare for Special Character Marines to not have melee weapons doing over D1.

Yes, as noted, his stabby spear does D3 damage.

He's still trash.

You don't know what he does yet. Do you know that his lighting claw doesn't have a name? THERE IS NO FULL DATA SHEET FOR HIM.

We saw the part of the datasheet that includes his equipment.

It had lightning claw in lowercase, so not a special weapon, same as the Deathwatch character with a power sword.

So apparently from both leaks and the reviews that are now available, his spear does not have a melee profile, only a ranged one. Let me repeat that: His SPEAR cannot be used in melee.

This is mind-bogglingly stupid even for GW. For such a cool character he's pretty much straight garbage, and will likely exist just so Calgar can crush him to show how awesome his new Primaris body is.

Wayniac wrote:
So apparently from both leaks and the reviews that are now available, his spear does not have a melee profile, only a ranged one. Let me repeat that: His SPEAR cannot be used in melee.

This is mind-bogglingly stupid even for GW. For such a cool character he's pretty much straight garbage, and will likely exist just so Calgar can crush him to show how awesome his new Primaris body is.

Yep. And looks like he's 135pts, and doesn't do anything extra beyond what they showed. So he's a wash. Especially considering that most of our other characters are getting big points drops in CA. Kharn is 120pts now, Huron is 105, and Lucius is 85! These guys are pretty damn efficient now if you want a foot slogging character.