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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:


Yes, but what about Lost and the Damned as a faction? You do understand they exist with HQs, elites and the such. Plauge Ogryns, Mutant Rabble, Berserker Ogryns ect. Lost and the Damned are just as much of a faction as IG are, plenty of groups with 0 Chaos Space Marines in them, while still being dedicated to the Dark Gods and accepting their gifts.

How much of that is Forge World stuff? Games Workshop generally doesn't put Forge World models into their codices.

Not to mention you already can make a CSM army without a single Chaos Marine in it. If makes you feel better, GW could drop the Astartes part of the codex name and just call it Heretics or Heretics of the Imperium and just group everything in. I am not beholden the the name on the front cover. Also, if it is largely an Imperial Guard army, sounds like the Astra Militarum codex just needs the same treatment as mentioned for space marines of a couple of pages on rules for traitorous guard.

Outside of Forge World stuff, which I don't know and don't care to know, all we are talking about is adding and subtracting keywords, right?

And how much variety would you have? You have one troop. One!

That's really what they need to add. Just like with Brood Brothers: Guard can swap <Imperium> with <Chaos> and <Astra Militarum> with <Militarum Traitoris> (or some similar faux-Latin name), and lose doctrines and extra things like can't take commissars or something.

It could be one page in a White Dwarf article.

Wayniac wrote:
That's really what they need to add. Just like with Brood Brothers: Guard can swap <Imperium> with <Chaos> and <Astra Militarum> with <Militarum Traitoris> (or some similar faux-Latin name), and lose doctrines and extra things like can't take commissars or something.

It could be one page in a White Dwarf article.

And consequently losing :
Mutant rabble, militia, cultists, Beastmen, marauders, ogryn Berzerkers, spawn, etc.

...
....

"great idea!"

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
That's really what they need to add. Just like with Brood Brothers: Guard can swap <Imperium> with <Chaos> and <Astra Militarum> with <Militarum Traitoris> (or some similar faux-Latin name), and lose doctrines and extra things like can't take commissars or something.

It could be one page in a White Dwarf article.

And consequently losing :
Mutant rabble, militia, cultists, Beastmen, marauders, ogryn Berzerkers, spawn, etc.

...
....

"great idea!"

What I was saying was in direct response to the notion we don't need another codex, e.g. no Renegades & Heretics.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Oh it's the narrow minded attitude. You realise that fw armies are equally official right?
And your sentiment shows through, so if you have no Clue about the army i reccomend you read up on it.

Yes, I do know that. Doesn't change the fact that Games Workshop doesn't put them in their codices. That's not my policy, that is Games Workshop's. Until they do, I am not going to worry about them. I don't know all the units in the all the current codices. I am certainly more likely to run into them than any Forge World model. And I defiantley not going to ever buy a Forge World model so I am not going to waste my time thinking about them. Oddly enough this is hobby for me and not a job, so I can look into the parts I like and ignore the parts that are way too expensive for me to ever consider purchasing.

However, if you honestly think GW is going to put together a codex that needs Forge World models to exist, by all means, let's have an actual Lost and Damned codex on store shelves.

Saturmorn, you're coming off as a very "My way or the highway" type of person. Yes, it is just a hobby-but people should be allowed to enjoy their hobby however they want, NOT just how you want.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


Oh it's the narrow minded attitude. You realise that fw armies are equally official right?
And your sentiment shows through, so if you have no Clue about the army i reccomend you read up on it.

Yes, I do know that. Doesn't change the fact that Games Workshop doesn't put them in their codices. That's not my policy, that is Games Workshop's. Until they do, I am not going to worry about them. I don't know all the units in the all the current codices. I am certainly more likely to run into them than any Forge World model. And I defiantley not going to ever buy a Forge World model so I am not going to waste my time thinking about them. Oddly enough this is hobby for me and not a job, so I can look into the parts I like and ignore the parts that are way too expensive for me to ever consider purchasing.

However, if you honestly think GW is going to put together a codex that needs Forge World models to exist, by all means, let's have an actual Lost and Damned codex on store shelves.

I never said it needs fw, however you could allready see the first Dose of GW produced lost and the damned in bsf.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wayniac wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
That's really what they need to add. Just like with Brood Brothers: Guard can swap <Imperium> with <Chaos> and <Astra Militarum> with <Militarum Traitoris> (or some similar faux-Latin name), and lose doctrines and extra things like can't take commissars or something.

It could be one page in a White Dwarf article.

And consequently losing :
Mutant rabble, militia, cultists, Beastmen, marauders, ogryn Berzerkers, spawn, etc.

...
....

"great idea!"

What I was saying was in direct response to the notion we don't need another codex, e.g. no Renegades & Heretics.

Sarcasm is beautiful.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Saturmorn, you're coming off as a very "My way or the highway" type of person. Yes, it is just a hobby-but people should be allowed to enjoy their hobby however they want, NOT just how you want.

I am simply pointing out that Forge World stuff isn't going to be in Game Workshop codices. I want them there as they are official units to be used, but clearly GW doesn't. It isn't my way, it is Games Workshop's way or the highway. Since GW has created plastic kits of 40k beastmen and renegade guard, those could conceivably be placed into a Chaos Space Marine codex. However, Renegade Orgyn Berserkers being a Forge World only model will not. I don't see there being quite the enough non-Forge World models to create a the Lost and the Damned codex without serious cannibalization of units that could more easily just be placed into existing factions that could also make use of them with a page detailing how to change keywords to create a composite renegade army.

How is that not allowing people to enjoy the hobby like they want. Remembering, I don't control GW's policy of not mentioning Forge World in their codices.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Saturmorn, you're coming off as a very "My way or the highway" type of person. Yes, it is just a hobby-but people should be allowed to enjoy their hobby however they want, NOT just how you want.

I am simply pointing out that Forge World stuff isn't going to be in Game Workshop codices. I want them there as they are official units to be used, but clearly GW doesn't. It isn't my way, it is Games Workshop's way or the highway. Since GW has created plastic kits of 40k beastmen and renegade guard, those could conceivably be placed into a Chaos Space Marine codex. However, Renegade Orgyn Berserkers being a Forge World only model will not. I don't see there being quite the enough non-Forge World models to create a the Lost and the Damned codex without serious cannibalization of units that could more easily just be placed into existing factions that could also make use of them with a page detailing how to change keywords to create a composite renegade army.

How is that not allowing people to enjoy the hobby like they want. Remembering, I don't control GW's policy of not mentioning Forge World in their codices.

Why is it any harder to get a FW Codex than a GW Codex?

Not Online!!! wrote:


I never said it needs fw, however you could allready see the first Dose of GW produced lost and the damned in bsf.

And I think those units would work fine in Chaos Space Marine warbands without the need of creating an allied detachment. No argument that they wouldn't be great as a base for a Lost and Damned warband. I just don't want them to be exclusive to them outside of allies.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Saturmorn, you're coming off as a very "My way or the highway" type of person. Yes, it is just a hobby-but people should be allowed to enjoy their hobby however they want, NOT just how you want.

I am simply pointing out that Forge World stuff isn't going to be in Game Workshop codices. I want them there as they are official units to be used, but clearly GW doesn't. It isn't my way, it is Games Workshop's way or the highway. Since GW has created plastic kits of 40k beastmen and renegade guard, those could conceivably be placed into a Chaos Space Marine codex. However, Renegade Orgyn Berserkers being a Forge World only model will not. I don't see there being quite the enough non-Forge World models to create a the Lost and the Damned codex without serious cannibalization of units that could more easily just be placed into existing factions that could also make use of them with a page detailing how to change keywords to create a composite renegade army.

How is that not allowing people to enjoy the hobby like they want. Remembering, I don't control GW's policy of not mentioning Forge World in their codices.

If they weren't supported though they would've not ended up in both CA'S...

And Cutting the r&H list even further then it is, is very much a detriment for any veteran since the stupid campaign list...

Also do you seriously think that Gw won't take over production of said units?
The same happened to the Baneblade btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


I never said it needs fw, however you could allready see the first Dose of GW produced lost and the damned in bsf.

And I think those units would work fine in Chaos Space Marine warbands without the need of creating an allied detachment. No argument that they wouldn't be great as a base for a Lost and Damned warband. I just don't want them to be exclusive to them outside of allies.

Csm allready have cultists. So yes they can and should be exclusive, csm should focus on the legions, mostly the non cult ones atm since they are extremely underdevelopped.

 JNAProductions wrote:


Why is it any harder to get a FW Codex than a GW Codex?

Ask Games Workshop not me. Unless you are talking about me spending money on a book with units I am not going to ever field or even encounter. I got better things to spend my money on than that. Like I said, I have no interest in Forge World stuff. They want to create a codex with all their models and few of the non-Games Workshop stuff, more power to them and the players that want them. I am not going to know anything about it because I give it about as much mind as I do Age of Sigmar.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


Why is it any harder to get a FW Codex than a GW Codex?

Ask Games Workshop not me. Unless you are talking about me spending money on a book with units I am not going to ever field or even encounter. I got better things to spend my money on than that. Like I said, I have no interest in Forge World stuff. They want to create a codex with all their models and few of the non-Games Workshop stuff, more power to them and the players that want them. I am not going to know anything about it because I give it about as much mind as I do Age of Sigmar.

Then why, if you have self addmittedly no idea about the army do you then demmand it to be folded into another one?

Tygre wrote:
IMHO Traitor Guard could just be a "regiment" entry in the Guard codex - with a blurb about renaming and chaosifying unit names etc. Renegade Space Marines - the more recent traitors - could also be a renegade "chapter" in the Space Marine codex.

With the changes above I would do two Chaos codex's; Codex:Chaos Space Marines for the Veterans of the Long War and well established traitors - like the red corsairs; and Codex: Lost and the Damned for the Cultists, Mutants and Beastmen etc.

Traitor Guard would fit in Lost and the Damned. Traitor Guard follow a much less rigid command structure, and have much more improvised weapons (The biggest thing being actual melee for basic troops), Traitor Guard are unique enough to be their own faction within lore, regardless of current rules. Traitor Guard don't need to really exist out of a lost and the damned codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


Why is it any harder to get a FW Codex than a GW Codex?

Ask Games Workshop not me. Unless you are talking about me spending money on a book with units I am not going to ever field or even encounter. I got better things to spend my money on than that. Like I said, I have no interest in Forge World stuff. They want to create a codex with all their models and few of the non-Games Workshop stuff, more power to them and the players that want them. I am not going to know anything about it because I give it about as much mind as I do Age of Sigmar.

Then why, if you have self addmittedly no idea about the army do you then demmand it to be folded into another one?

This.

Regardless of current status, within lore RnH are plenty unique to be their own army, and they simply need a model line. Forge world or Games workshop, just because you Saturmon don't care about them doesn't mean they should be folded into another book.

Not Online!!! wrote:


Then why, if you have self addmittedly no idea about the army do you then demmand it to be folded into another one?

First off, demand is a strong word setting a tone that you are hearing that is different that the one I an offering. I am suggesting not demanding with these ideas. I am demanding you stop insinuating that I am.

Because we are talking about Games Workshop (read: not Forge World only) products. Forge World units might be in Chapter Approved and FAQs, but they are not in codices. The Games Workshop products are likely to be in codices or already in codices. So I see it being much easier to simply add a page detailing how to use the units already in codices to create a heretical army.

I am not normally for this kind of thing, but this could probably be in a White Dwarf issue or better yet an up coming Chapter Approved going over how to create various renegade/heretical armies by changing keywords rather generate yet another codex to buy. It isn't like these units couldn't be in Chaos Space Marine list anyways, they would just have to take them as an allied detachment. As Blackstone Fortress has shown, the line between Chaos Space Marines and Servants of the Abyss is pretty murky. I can easily see that as Chaos Space Marine warband with only few actual marines and they hold the leadership positions. Where another player can see them as a warband that can function without the marines there at all. Both are true. I think those units can be in either without going to the trouble of generating an allied detachment.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It would go a long way for Chaos Space Marines to have the following as Troop choices:

Beastmen
Cultists
Traitor Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War

Cultists would be the conscript version of Traitor Guard basically as suggested. Chaos Space Marines would still exist to represent relatively new converts/initiates to Chaos. Finally, stop titling upgrades and stratagems with Veterans of the Long War and just make them an actual unit. They could be separate from Chosen (though likely share the same stat line) with war gear options more inline with a Troop instead of an Elite choice. More than doubling the number of Troop choices, I think will go a long way in helping Chaos Space Marines develop more varied army lists.

Then what is this?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It would go a long way for Chaos Space Marines to have the following as Troop choices:

Beastmen
Cultists
Traitor Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War

Cultists would be the conscript version of Traitor Guard basically as suggested. Chaos Space Marines would still exist to represent relatively new converts/initiates to Chaos. Finally, stop titling upgrades and stratagems with Veterans of the Long War and just make them an actual unit. They could be separate from Chosen (though likely share the same stat line) with war gear options more inline with a Troop instead of an Elite choice. More than doubling the number of Troop choices, I think will go a long way in helping Chaos Space Marines develop more varied army lists.

Then what is this?

A suggestion.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It would go a long way for Chaos Space Marines to have the following as Troop choices:

Beastmen
Cultists
Traitor Guard
Chaos Space Marines
Veterans of the Long War

Cultists would be the conscript version of Traitor Guard basically as suggested. Chaos Space Marines would still exist to represent relatively new converts/initiates to Chaos. Finally, stop titling upgrades and stratagems with Veterans of the Long War and just make them an actual unit. They could be separate from Chosen (though likely share the same stat line) with war gear options more inline with a Troop instead of an Elite choice. More than doubling the number of Troop choices, I think will go a long way in helping Chaos Space Marines develop more varied army lists.

Then what is this?

A suggestion.

Which was pointed out to you that it is terrible to which you reacted in a way that can be summarized as feth the army that had it before.

You seem to be the only one pointing out things are "terrible" while seemingly offering no constructive suggestions, just attacking other's ideas... seems like you're one of those "they had this before, so they should always have it" sort of people.

Wayniac wrote:
You seem to be the only one pointing out things are "terrible" while seemingly offering no constructive suggestions, just attacking other's ideas... seems like you're one of those "they had this before, so they should always have it" sort of people.

No i am actively questioning his logic here mainly because there exists a list of an army that is literally based on these units and he just wants to fold them into an army that should focus on csm instead in order of fixing a percived lack of list versatility.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Which was pointed out to you that it is terrible to which you reacted in a way that can be summarized as feth the army that had it before. .

No, I pointed out that non-Forge World doesn't have a The Lost and the Damned faction yet listed. It currently doesn't other than Indices and CA. There is no The Lost and the Damned codex, and I suspect there isn't one on the horizon yet. If Games Workshop was to create one great. I would prefer that it didn't take the Blackstone Fortress units exclusively to make it as I can also see those units being in a core Chaos Space Marine warband as well. Just like I assume many Chaos Space Marine units could be made use by the Lost and the Damned. To which, I would prefer that until a larger model line exclusive them was generated, their rules be rolled into the parent codex a player is likely to use to create their army. Even then, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to just have units shared among both codices just with different keywords as to avoid creating an allied detachment to get them.

Again, you are reading a tone in my posts that just isn't there. I certainly didn't call anyone narrow minded here. But you are definitely on you way to creating when discussing this subject with you.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
You seem to be the only one pointing out things are "terrible" while seemingly offering no constructive suggestions, just attacking other's ideas... seems like you're one of those "they had this before, so they should always have it" sort of people.

No i am actively questioning his logic here mainly because there exists a list of an army that is literally based on these units and he just wants to fold them into an army that should focus on csm instead in order of fixing a percived lack of list versatility.

Yes, this doesn't fix their versatility. Infact it just makes them not CSM, I think having Cultists in CSM is as far as it needs to go. The rest can be brought in through allies (Although I think that system should be redone to make it easier/ala removing the blood brothers rules and fixing CP.)


Lost and the Damned are plenty fine in their own codex, CSM just need to be fixed as a troop choice. Lost and the Damned have no models right now, which sucks but it's rumored that will be fixed soon, and with how much Traitor Guard can be done with conversions, I'm sad of the no models no rules policy, because all they need is an upgrade kit or 2 (Not that I don't want a full kit, but that's wishful thinking). CSM should have Cultists, Veterans of the Long war and CSM as a troop choice, I like the VoTW idea, for sure.

Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s

I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.

How much of that is Forge World stuff? Games Workshop generally doesn't put Forge World models into their codices.

Not to mention you already can make a CSM army without a single Chaos Marine in it. If makes you feel better, GW could drop the Astartes part of the codex name and just call it Heretics or Heretics of the Imperium and just group everything in. I am not beholden the the name on the front cover. Also, if it is largely an Imperial Guard army, sounds like the Astra Militarum codex just needs the same treatment as mentioned for space marines of a couple of pages on rules for traitorous guard.

Outside of Forge World stuff, which I don't know and don't care to know, all we are talking about is adding and subtracting keywords, right?

Considering i neither started the snark nor belive that my way is the only correct one and even Offered a point why there won't be a csm codex that will have lost and the damned in them i Cede my point.
Edit: to clarify :
I would not be against a big faction book that goes indepth into subfaction, what i am against is the suggestion of, just flip keywords around until it fits, because i pointed allready out how many unique units would get lost.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Which was pointed out to you that it is terrible to which you reacted in a way that can be summarized as feth the army that had it before. .

No, I pointed out that non-Forge World doesn't have a The Lost and the Damned faction yet listed. It currently doesn't other than Indices and CA. There is no The Lost and the Damned codex, and I suspect there isn't one on the horizon yet. If Games Workshop was to create one great. I would prefer that it didn't take the Blackstone Fortress units exclusively to make it as I can also see those units being in a core Chaos Space Marine warband as well. Just like I assume many Chaos Space Marine units could be made use by the Lost and the Damned. To which, I would prefer that until a larger model line exclusive them was generated, their rules be rolled into the parent codex a player is likely to use to create their army. Even then, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to just have units shared among both codices just with different keywords as to avoid creating an allied detachment to get them.

Again, you are reading a tone in my posts that just isn't there. I certainly didn't call anyone narrow minded here. But you are definitely on you way to creating when discussing this subject with you.

I'm not entirely against this, but at the same time, GSC and Tyranids have to ally different detachments to be allies, and they have the same command structure (The hive mind), why should CSM be any different?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s

I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.

It you take offense to the /s that wasn't directed at you just the fact that I think 40k has way too many codices. If you did take offense I apologize. Honestly, I think it would be better if GW could roll all of Chaos into one and most of IoM into like two codices.

Since that is my stance, I still don't see a need for a the Lost and the Damned codex. I think Games Workshop would need at least as much as the new GSC to justify it and even then that is very light. I don't think that the units in Blackstone Fortress are nearly enough, and I don't think they need to be exclusive just to create that new codex since I think they would work very well in CSM warband. However, I don't want to leave potential renegade army idea floundering. So I think a page in a codex ripe with creating an heretical army would work.

As for a new renegade or giving into chaos. That is how is described in the CSM codex. Most traitorous marines give into the Ruinous Powers simply to survive. Again, that is not my way or the highway. That is how the CSM describes it. Don't take issue with me, I didn't write it that way.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yup, because what 40k needs is another faction codex./s

I don't really see a need for the Lost and the Damned to be separate from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Those warbands are either newly renegade and can use the Imperial codex of choice as they still have IoM equipment, or they have accepted of chaos and can use the Chaos Space Marine codex. Anything in between can be a page or two in either or both codices to cover the special snowflake stuff. There is nothing stopping a Chaos Space Marine warband from press ganging beastmen or guardsmen into service. Heck, Thousand Sons already make use of beastmen in the rules now. And Blackstone fortress' Servants of the Abyss is just a fancy name for Black Legion warlord that doesn't have many marines in his warband.

It you take offense to the /s that wasn't directed at you just the fact that I think 40k has way too many codices. If you did take offense I apologize. Honestly, I think it would be better if GW could roll all of Chaos into one and most of IoM into like two codices.

Since that is my stance, I still don't see a need for a the Lost and the Damned codex. I think Games Workshop would need at least as much as the new GSC to justify it and even then that is very light. I don't think that the units in Blackstone Fortress are nearly enough, and I don't think they need to be exclusive just to create that new codex since I think they would work very well in CSM warband. However, I don't want to leave potential renegade army idea floundering. So I think a page in a codex ripe with creating an heretical army would work.

As for a new renegade or giving into chaos. That is how is described in the CSM codex. Most traitorous marines give into the Ruinous Powers simply to survive. Again, that is not my way or the highway. That is how the CSM describes it. Don't take issue with me, I didn't write it that way.

So then i am sorry for missintepreting that then.
R&H recently went anyways oop, and these units technically make the list, because in essence r&H is just the fancier name for lost and the damned.

I agree with you on the fact though that there are waaaaaaay to many dexes atm. I however also want to point out that Gw uses the minidexes as a reccurent income of sorts. It makes sense for them to do this and they do. Look at knights f.e.

It also does not really fix the main issue csm have, namely that beyond 2 cult legions the main legions are everything but fleshed out.

 Sir Heckington wrote:
.

I'm not entirely against this, but at the same time, GSC and Tyranids have to ally different detachments to be allies, and they have the same command structure (The hive mind), why should CSM be any different?

You are right. I guess you could go with the fact that CSM tend to be a little more hands on with those under them. I also generally think of anything less than a marine as not being an ally with CSM where might usually makes right so they become defacto part of the Warlord's warband.

However, this is largely because I think currently CSM codex needs more troop options. I would gladly give up beastmen and regular human troops (cults and guardsmen) for at least two other options to at least somewhat match space marines.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
.

I'm not entirely against this, but at the same time, GSC and Tyranids have to ally different detachments to be allies, and they have the same command structure (The hive mind), why should CSM be any different?

You are right. I guess you could go with the fact that CSM tend to be a little more hands on with those under them. I also generally think of anything less than a marine as not being an ally with CSM where might usually makes right so they become defacto part of the Warlord's warband.

However, this is largely because I think currently CSM codex needs more troop options. I would gladly give up beastmen and regular human troops (cults and guardsmen) for at least two other options to at least somewhat match space marines.

Alpha legion agents / infiltrators? Kinda like a still human scout?

Chosen could also easily be moved down and renamed into veterans of the long war.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
.

I'm not entirely against this, but at the same time, GSC and Tyranids have to ally different detachments to be allies, and they have the same command structure (The hive mind), why should CSM be any different?

You are right. I guess you could go with the fact that CSM tend to be a little more hands on with those under them. I also generally think of anything less than a marine as not being an ally with CSM where might usually makes right so they become defacto part of the Warlord's warband.

However, this is largely because I think currently CSM codex needs more troop options. I would gladly give up beastmen and regular human troops (cults and guardsmen) for at least two other options to at least somewhat match space marines.

I agree that CSM need more troop options, however I'd go with Cultists, CSM, Veterans of the long War, and some kind of sniper unit equivalent to Scouts. I think most people think of things less than marines to where they become part of CSM warbands, which is fair considering their focus on CSM, but it's still something that should be noted imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:


So then i am sorry for missintepreting that then.
R&H recently went anyways oop, and these units technically make the list, because in essence r&H is just the fancier name for lost and the damned.

I agree with you on the fact though that there are waaaaaaay to many dexes atm. I however also want to point out that Gw uses the minidexes as a reccurent income of sorts. It makes sense for them to do this and they do. Look at knights f.e.

It also does not really fix the main issue csm have, namely that beyond 2 cult legions the main legions are everything but fleshed out.

I Appreciate that.

I don't like the mini-dexes myself, but I could easily see them creating such a thing. I think a mini-dex would, at very least, could take some of the renegade and heretic units from the various codices and putting them all in one place making it easier for a dedicated player to do so. As a mini-dex it, hopefully, would be cheaper too. At the same time, I like the idea of a player being able to just say their IoM is renegade switching a few keywords and creating a whole new kind of army with minimal fuss.

You are correct, it doesn't fix the Chaos Undivided issue. Honestly, it did really bother me until I started playing Kill Team which really exposed how poor the CSM troop choice really were.


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 Sir Heckington wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sir Heckington wrote:
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I'm not entirely against this, but at the same time, GSC and Tyranids have to ally different detachments to be allies, and they have the same command structure (The hive mind), why should CSM be any different?

You are right. I guess you could go with the fact that CSM tend to be a little more hands on with those under them. I also generally think of anything less than a marine as not being an ally with CSM where might usually makes right so they become defacto part of the Warlord's warband.

However, this is largely because I think currently CSM codex needs more troop options. I would gladly give up beastmen and regular human troops (cults and guardsmen) for at least two other options to at least somewhat match space marines.

I agree that CSM need more troop options, however I'd go with Cultists, CSM, Veterans of the long War, and some kind of sniper unit equivalent to Scouts. I think most people think of things less than marines to where they become part of CSM warbands, which is fair considering their focus on CSM, but it's still something that should be noted imo.

And as someone that doesn't like cultists, guardsmen and beastmen in with their CSM I would like that. I just don't want to spend a lot of points on Troop options that seems to make my army weaker. I don't know how you could include a scout-like unit to CSM, but I agree it would definitely be something useful to them.