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No, i dont read it that way.

you can have up to 4 additional infiltrators and a helix adept, so my read is that you can run a 6 man squad with a helix adept, but you cannot run a 5 man squad with a helix adept, NOR can you run a 10 man squad without a helix adept.

 Karhedron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Yup, this is the real problem. They cost significantly more than Intercessors and have a worse gun. Their ability is very situational in that it will severely impede a handful of armies but be absolutely worthless against many others. Deep strike denial may well severly mess with Jumping Orks and Daemon bombs but will be worthless against Knights + Loyal32.

If 40K had sideboards, they would be a perfect sideboard unit. As it stands, in competitive play, you will have to decide if you want to spend a lot of points and an offensive downgrade to get a unit that only has situational benefits over Intercessors.

If they get reduced to sub-20 points, I think they might be useful. Currently, I am not convinced. Do you need to get a full 10-man squad to get a Helix Adept?

Why wouldn't they be valuable against Knights +Loyal 32? Positioned aggressively, they have a perfect opportunity to box those guardsmen into their own deployment zone, keeping them tied up and off objectives.

BrianDavion wrote:
you can have up to 4 additional infiltrators and a helix adept, so my read is that you can run a 6 man squad with a helix adept, but you cannot run a 5 man squad with a helix adept, NOR can you run a 10 man squad without a helix adept.

Yup. This is my reading.

Speaking as another Deathwatch player, who does do lore, I do think Deathwatch should get vanguard space marines.

I'll go one over and actually say why. Their combat style fits the Rainbox six style specialist roles. Veteran scout units to slink behind enemy lines and call in precise veteran strikes at the right times, excellent fluff.

Their role and combat ability goes well with Deathwatch schemes of combat. Skilled sniper units ? Excellent, knock out characters as to sow chaos in the ranks. Suppress Over watch for smaller specialist assault groups to close with the enemy preventing over watch, which some xeno armies love ( Tau, for one ) great. Deep strike disrupting for the enemy as well as ability to be forward operation and directly aided by air reserves ( corvus ) or teleport strike, sounds fitting.

In all honesty with crunch and fluff they scream deathwatch style, to me. Crossing your arms to say " No, they gots enough. " Just sounds odd. As well I will say if you strip away the fluff and the feel from 40k its a pretty crap game. The feel of story and character within the units is what drives this game. While I can agree game balance is important I don't think these units would make or break the Deathwatch but they sure would feel good for the faction and fit their play style for a best of the best covert force where numbers are light but skills are deep.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Speaking as another Deathwatch player, who does do lore, I do think Deathwatch should get vanguard space marines.

I'll go one over and actually say why. Their combat style fits the Rainbox six style specialist roles. Veteran scout units to slink behind enemy lines and call in precise veteran strikes at the right times, excellent fluff.

Their role and combat ability goes well with Deathwatch schemes of combat. Skilled sniper units ? Excellent, knock out characters as to sow chaos in the ranks. Suppress Over watch for smaller specialist assault groups to close with the enemy preventing over watch, which some xeno armies love ( Tau, for one ) great. Deep strike disrupting for the enemy as well as ability to be forward operation and directly aided by air reserves ( corvus ) or teleport strike, sounds fitting.

In all honesty with crunch and fluff they scream deathwatch style, to me. Crossing your arms to say " No, they gots enough. " Just sounds odd. As well I will say if you strip away the fluff and the feel from 40k its a pretty crap game. The feel of story and character within the units is what drives this game. While I can agree game balance is important I don't think these units would make or break the Deathwatch but they sure would feel good for the faction and fit their play style for a best of the best covert force where numbers are light but skills are deep.

death watch'll proably get em, the problem is making them work with SIA

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Speaking as another Deathwatch player, who does do lore, I do think Deathwatch should get vanguard space marines.

I'll go one over and actually say why. Their combat style fits the Rainbox six style specialist roles. Veteran scout units to slink behind enemy lines and call in precise veteran strikes at the right times, excellent fluff.

Their role and combat ability goes well with Deathwatch schemes of combat. Skilled sniper units ? Excellent, knock out characters as to sow chaos in the ranks. Suppress Over watch for smaller specialist assault groups to close with the enemy preventing over watch, which some xeno armies love ( Tau, for one ) great. Deep strike disrupting for the enemy as well as ability to be forward operation and directly aided by air reserves ( corvus ) or teleport strike, sounds fitting.

In all honesty with crunch and fluff they scream deathwatch style, to me. Crossing your arms to say " No, they gots enough. " Just sounds odd. As well I will say if you strip away the fluff and the feel from 40k its a pretty crap game. The feel of story and character within the units is what drives this game. While I can agree game balance is important I don't think these units would make or break the Deathwatch but they sure would feel good for the faction and fit their play style for a best of the best covert force where numbers are light but skills are deep.

The only reason they aren't at this time is because their shoulder pads are directly molded.

The shoulder pads I get, hopefully when the full kit drops they will. As for working with SIA, that should be no real issue as they are basically infiltrating marines with slightly better bolters. I had a hell of a time getting the pads off the starter primaris for deathwatch pads. I just did a paint thing with the interceptors, wasn't going to do that there. The snipers I wouldn't see getting SIA as they have their own SIA built in.

Lemondish wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Yup, this is the real problem. They cost significantly more than Intercessors and have a worse gun. Their ability is very situational in that it will severely impede a handful of armies but be absolutely worthless against many others. Deep strike denial may well severly mess with Jumping Orks and Daemon bombs but will be worthless against Knights + Loyal32.

Why wouldn't they be valuable against Knights +Loyal 32? Positioned aggressively, they have a perfect opportunity to box those guardsmen into their own deployment zone, keeping them tied up and off objectives.

Because Infiltrators will die very quickly when deployed near Knights. Plenty of common Knight weapons like the Avenger or Plasma Decimator are virtually perfect Primaris-killers, to say nothing of their Titanic Feet. Infiltrators also lack any heavy weapons to effectively threaten the Knights. Deploying Infiltrators aggressively against Knights is basically handing your opponent an easy way to wipe out your scoring units before they can contribute to the battle significantly.

 Karhedron wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know if i'd say game changing, especially at their price-point.

Yup, this is the real problem. They cost significantly more than Intercessors and have a worse gun. Their ability is very situational in that it will severely impede a handful of armies but be absolutely worthless against many others. Deep strike denial may well severly mess with Jumping Orks and Daemon bombs but will be worthless against Knights + Loyal32.

Why wouldn't they be valuable against Knights +Loyal 32? Positioned aggressively, they have a perfect opportunity to box those guardsmen into their own deployment zone, keeping them tied up and off objectives.

Because Infiltrators will die very quickly when deployed near Knights. Plenty of common Knight weapons like the Avenger or Plasma Decimator are virtually perfect Primaris-killers, to say nothing of their Titanic Feet. Infiltrators also lack any heavy weapons to effectively threaten the Knights. Deploying Infiltrators aggressively against Knights is basically handing your opponent an easy way to wipe out your scoring units before they can contribute to the battle significantly.

Ok, let's break this down. One, it's kind of impossible to shoot them if they're tied in combat against the guardsman screen. Can't contest objectives, can't win.

And two, if the Knight player feels they need to shoot the Infiltrators, then by all means, I welcome it. Better that than literally anything else.

But few units are safe from being removed by Knights, and even fewer are meant to engage them, so I'm uncertain why this is a concern here when there are few alternatives. It's madness to cut a unit from consideration because another unit, should you face it, will have the upper hand. After all, with that perspective, why bring a Knight when an enemy Knight can kill it?

Non-castellan ik shooting is pretty poor, actually. Krast crusaders, i guess, too. But primaris are one of the few statlines they are good against. They are hopeless vs guardsmen.

Infiltrators are 23 points each and have a fancy boltgun with ap-0. There point cost is a true indicator of how little GW understands about this game.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Infiltrators are 23 points each and have a fancy boltgun with ap-0. There point cost is a true indicator of how little GW understands about this game.

22

Lemondish wrote:
It's madness to cut a unit from consideration because another unit, should you face it, will have the upper hand. After all, with that perspective, why bring a Knight when an enemy Knight can kill it?

It is not so much cutting Infiltrators from consideration because they might face Knights. Rather it is because they have a hefty price premium and a weapon downgrade over Intercessors. In return they get a bonus that is only valuable against a relatively small number of opposing armies.

 Karhedron wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
It's madness to cut a unit from consideration because another unit, should you face it, will have the upper hand. After all, with that perspective, why bring a Knight when an enemy Knight can kill it?

It is not so much cutting Infiltrators from consideration because they might face Knights. Rather it is because they have a hefty price premium and a weapon downgrade over Intercessors. In return they get a bonus that is only valuable against a relatively small number of opposing armies.

I don't think that last thing is quite true.

In my eyes, their two main purposes are forward deployment and deep strike denial+. Those are both really potent tools individually, but it's really unlikely that you'll get equal value from each of them in every match up.

Sometimes it's the deep strike denial that helps the most, like countering a mobbed up unit of Boyz from making use of Da Jump. Other times it's scout deployment, where that screen of Guardsmen gets charged first turn and can't move out of their own deployment. These rules aren't always going to benefit you at equal levels in every game, but even when only one is an active contributor in the match, it's powerful enough to disrupt your opponent's plans heavily. I think that makes them a bit more versatile and useful against more match ups than you give them credit.

So you know where I'm coming from, for my playstyle, they work wonders - I like to take the centre of the board and operate from there. You struggle to achieve certain powerful strategic goals when in order to be efficient your army needs to castle, or get into the opponent's face as soon as possible. Occupying that middle space makes it much easier to contest or secure objectives, gives you more space to maneuver, and lets you deny both movement and objectives. I prefer the middle ground of those two extremes (castle and assault), and in a fun form of poetic symmetry, this translates as literally the middle ground.

Having said that, if your meta is a cut throat, ITC exclusive, high intensity tournament level environment, then you will find 22 points will be a hard pill to swallow when you need to be as efficient as possible. But then again, if you're trying to compete at top tables against the best lists and players, you made a grievous error by bringing Space Marines in the first place

every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

It makes all deep strike assaults illegal for area covered that. So orks who rely quite a lot on their 78% chance DS charges goes from 78% to flat out 0%. That hurts orks quite a bit. Blood letters also hate not being able to charge out of deep strike ever.

 Xenomancers wrote:
every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

Some armies get to either deploy closer or can stack bonuses to make a charge from Reserves reliable. The extra 3" of denial is a bit bonus against those armies but it is very specific to certain matchups (Daemon bombs, Jump Orks, certain Nid builds etc). This is my concern with them, sometimes they will do very well, other times you will wish had brought Intercessors instead. Intercessors are 5 points cheaper per model and come with a better gun, hence my reluctance on Infiltrators.

 Xenomancers wrote:
every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

Not really. Those 3" mean nothing coming onto the board via deep strike can charge. That's a significant impact on the efficacy of those tactics. How? By completely turning them off. That's 9" of extra movement you're fully denying, especially against armies that really benefit from the charge, pile in, and consolidate.

Maybe you don't play in an environment where these are a factor. Understandable, but its kind of impossible to know what type of special meta you play in so it's easier to just look at everything as likely to be faced.

You at the very least must play in an environment where board control is a factor. Against most anti-infantry fire, those Infiltrators are definitely more durable than Scouts, and that can't be ignored.

Though you could also hypothetically just buy 2x of Scouts and push the bubble out even further. Even if they do charge and destroy half of them they’ve started further away and you’ve still got half the Scouts left for next turn.

bort wrote:
Though you could also hypothetically just buy 2x of Scouts and push the bubble out even further. Even if they do charge and destroy half of them they’ve started further away and you’ve still got half the Scouts left for next turn.

Smart opponents will just charge and pile in such that they don't kill all the Scouts, but rather do wrap tricks and kill the Scouts in the Marine player's own turn. This is one advantage that Infiltrators have against deep striking melee blobs; they can't be charged from reserves. Is it worth 22 ppm? Probably not. Especially when some other armies just don't care about any of that (like Tau or Knights).

One neat little gimmick with Infiltrators' guns that I think is underrated and could be useful if they come down in points is the fact that a 6 to hit automatically wounds. Even against big things like Knights. Could come in very handy against high-toughness targets.

Sure, they're gonna trap and you lose that shooting turn. But, they've hopefully had to start 2 9" bubbles away instead of 1 12" bubble. There's definitely cases where the 12" is better, but as noted there's a lot of armies where it doesn't matter and so the same points in Scouts gives other upsides.

I'd still like to eventually get a unit of 5 Infiltrators to mix in for variety, but I'm also really hoping their cost drops first.

Also lot of weapons (plasma gun, bolters etc.) is rapid fire 24' so one cannot deepstrike into rapid fire range cutting half of deep striking weapon firepower

bort wrote:
Sure, they're gonna trap and you lose that shooting turn. But, they've hopefully had to start 2 9" bubbles away instead of 1 12" bubble. There's definitely cases where the 12" is better, but as noted there's a lot of armies where it doesn't matter and so the same points in Scouts gives other upsides.

I'd still like to eventually get a unit of 5 Infiltrators to mix in for variety, but I'm also really hoping their cost drops first.

Here's the thing - it isn't two 9'' bubbles away - they aren't 18'' away, they're still 9'' away. The distinction in language is subtle, but in reality it's pretty big. Most things that want to rush you (because marines are susceptible to being swarmed and rendered worthless against speed like this) will have ways to make that 9'' charge all but inevitable. Which means they've moved 9'' from the charge, up to 3'' from the pile in, up to 3'' from the consolidate, and maintain complete protection from shooting in the following turn. Even when you're facing a force that has a couple 9'' bubbles stringing out across the board, it's easy enough to find a spot to drop and charge effectively.

Infiltrators make that strategy impossible, which is a fantastic benefit against those forces. I cannot highlight how important that breathing room can be against forces that want to do this to you.

And yet they still also bring your tried and true board control and screening for the other fast armies that want to get across the board and crash into your lines. Just as with scouts, your lines aren't in your deployment zone when they forward deploy. They're more durable than scouts against most anti-infantry firepower, despite being the same cost per wound, and all you've managed is a slight reduction that nearly reaches half your firepower from your screening units. They can also begin the match on an objective, which depending on how your mission goes, might force the opponent to spend time and effort trying to dislodge a unit of infiltrators rather than targeting those hellblasters, or aggressors, or suppressors. Anything to help confuse target priority is a good decision in my mind.

These guys are already pretty good for everything outside of high level tournament play (as is the case for a lot of marine units, honestly), so a points drop would be a cherry on top for me and I absolutely would not complain. But it's also true that a points drop doesn't change how to use them, which is pretty much the topic at hand here.

Back on topic: Vanguard Libby is slowly becoming one of my most favourite units lately. Combined with the work done by Eliminators, these two units are a ridiculous combination of character hunting shenanigans. Mind Raid and Tenebrous Curse definitely rock, and I've gone kind of crazy with testing this guy.

For instance, we all know the Tome can give him Null Zone, which I managed to use pretty reliably against some daemons the other day. You see, Null Zone wording says it applies the aura 6'' around the Librarian - so I gave him the Shoot and Fade warlord trait just to play around with that. Deployed him forward, moved him up to apply the aura to a few units (if I successfully cast it), blasted away at them, then selected the Libby to shoot and either moved him out of harms way or into another spot where the Null Zone aura would give the rest of my shooting units some good targets. Was super fun - but ultimately kind of risky since giving a squishy forward deployed character warlord is doomed to always fail lol

As I said earlier, the shooty buff on rievers with carbines is pretty strong.

In my Deathwatch army I'm just using the infiltrators as intercessors as the models are great and pretty similar too intercessors anyway. Really hope we get to include them in Deathwatch lists sometime as I love the models and they do have some cool rules.

Lemondish wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

Not really. Those 3" mean nothing coming onto the board via deep strike can charge. That's a significant impact on the efficacy of those tactics. How? By completely turning them off. That's 9" of extra movement you're fully denying, especially against armies that really benefit from the charge, pile in, and consolidate.

Maybe you don't play in an environment where these are a factor. Understandable, but its kind of impossible to know what type of special meta you play in so it's easier to just look at everything as likely to be faced.

You at the very least must play in an environment where board control is a factor. Against most anti-infantry fire, those Infiltrators are definitely more durable than Scouts, and that can't be ignored.

just look at the meta in general. What lists does the extra deep strike denial effect? Orks, daemons, blood angels, tyranids. Okay that's cool, what are the odds you'll play one of those armies in most of your games? Pretty low actually.

Can those armies play around your bigger deep strike bubble, considering youre spending twice as much on your screening units as you could be? Definitely.

Scouts are a real liability in ITC, though.

footfoe wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

Not really. Those 3" mean nothing coming onto the board via deep strike can charge. That's a significant impact on the efficacy of those tactics. How? By completely turning them off. That's 9" of extra movement you're fully denying, especially against armies that really benefit from the charge, pile in, and consolidate.

Maybe you don't play in an environment where these are a factor. Understandable, but its kind of impossible to know what type of special meta you play in so it's easier to just look at everything as likely to be faced.

You at the very least must play in an environment where board control is a factor. Against most anti-infantry fire, those Infiltrators are definitely more durable than Scouts, and that can't be ignored.

just look at the meta in general. What lists does the extra deep strike denial effect? Orks, daemons, blood angels, tyranids. Okay that's cool, what are the odds you'll play one of those armies in most of your games? Pretty low actually.

Can those armies play around your bigger deep strike bubble, considering youre spending twice as much on your screening units as you could be? Definitely.

Orks did just do really well at Adepticon and a Daemon/TS list won the whole thing so there is that. Infiltrators would have both helped in the ork match up and also in the Daemon/TS match up.

footfoe wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
every army has a 9" no deep strike zone on every model - infiltrators extend that 3". It's nice but seriously overrated.

Not really. Those 3" mean nothing coming onto the board via deep strike can charge. That's a significant impact on the efficacy of those tactics. How? By completely turning them off. That's 9" of extra movement you're fully denying, especially against armies that really benefit from the charge, pile in, and consolidate.

Maybe you don't play in an environment where these are a factor. Understandable, but its kind of impossible to know what type of special meta you play in so it's easier to just look at everything as likely to be faced.

You at the very least must play in an environment where board control is a factor. Against most anti-infantry fire, those Infiltrators are definitely more durable than Scouts, and that can't be ignored.

just look at the meta in general. What lists does the extra deep strike denial effect? Orks, daemons, blood angels, tyranids. Okay that's cool, what are the odds you'll play one of those armies in most of your games? Pretty low actually.

Can those armies play around your bigger deep strike bubble, considering youre spending twice as much on your screening units as you could be? Definitely.

Okay let's ignore the fact that there is no global meta and look at the US ITC meta specifically. What armies want to control the board?

Every single one. The value of deep strike denial against those forces you listed absolutely is huge, but it pales in comparison with how beneficial board control is. It's how games are won, ITC or otherwise, because controlling movement and holding onto objectives is so extremely valuable. That opponent HAS to commit heavily into removing any screen in order to make their gimmicks work, and they will commit far more to that fight than you lose here. Then, when they have done that, they still have to contend with a variety of other threats upon landing. I'm not talking theory here - this is how I've been successfully using them, so I'm sharing my experience.

Sure, you can achieve early board control with scouts - but I've found Infiltrators are more durable and still bring that second bonus that straight up turns off for a few turns some of the things that will kill your mobility and box you in.

As an aside, I think it's important to highlight how in a meta so diverse as this one, you need to be able to react to a variety of different armies. Ork, GSC, and Blood Angels are still ridiculously numerous despite your feelings otherwise.