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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Tyel wrote:
In a casual CSM vs Marines game, Brazen Beasts would help a lot.

The problem is movement. I mean if your untouched CSM unit magically finds itself within an easy charge range of a guardsman squad or a fire warrior squad, they should bully them in close combat. But how are they going to get there? And avoid being Greater Gooded to oblivion when they charge? You can buy Rhinos, but they are not free and you are still looking at an easily screened turn 2 charge unless they have conveniently walked what you want to charge towards you.

Pretty sure the only use Marines have is to take a boltgun, go to ground hopefully on an objective in or next to your deployment zone, in cover if possible, and just plink away all game.

Screens are a problem, but it looks like we're actually going to be in a decent position to clean them turn 1 with shooting thanks to the new rotor cannon. That's basically the ultimate anti-screen weapon in the game.

As for movement, we'd got red corsair advance and charge, which means a turn 2 assault. And then there's warptime, which will allow a turn 1 assault in some deployments (for a big 20man squad.)

Not sure any of this is enough, of course.

Sounds about right.

Throw in an apostle and VotLW to make chainswords wound a Castellan on 4s...

20 CSM with chainswords +1 to wound from VotLW and +1 to wound from apostle ends up doing about 9 damage to a castellan (not counting powerfist, plasma pistols, etc.) So probably better used on some big guns still.

I'm trying to get a handle on just how capable/not capable melee CSM are with all this stuff. My impression is that if they had a 3rd attack (even just on the charge like they used to), or if they could have bolter+chainsword, then they'd definitely have a role. But without those, I'm just really not seeing it working out except maybe as a Red Corsair gimmick. I think we're gonna see a lot of 5man csm with rotor cannon and combi bolter, and that's about it.

However, that's with offensive analysis. The other angle to consider is defensive. In that regard, the question is: with the plethora of new defensive buffs, can mass CSM be defensively efficient enough to give your opponent problems killing them? Could running a ton of marines be viable just because they are really hard to kill efficiently? And how about those new cheaper terminators?

Asmodios wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
If I'm not mistaken we haven't seen all the CSM rules/strategems/detachments yet so isn't it a little too early to be crying out in pain?

Going by some of the user's posts in the run up to the GSC release, it is never too early to start complaining...

Is that CSM cost correct, btw? Given 78 is not divisible by 5, something looks off.

that's true I forgot I was on dakka for a moment..... clearly CSM are unplayable and people should start burning their models because just the sneak peaks haven't presented a game-breaking combo yet.

Though proper model burning has to be recorded and posted on youtube otherwise it didn´t happen.

I think while it's gimmicky, a big squad of 20 CSM with Pistol+Chainsword, 2x Flamers, Champion w/Combi-Flamer + Chainaxe, Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath might not be that bad if properly supported (both with characters and with other ranged units). The problem is that's 291 points and requires more points in support.

Like anything else, the CSM army has to be the sum of its parts, not single gimmicks that are taken to the extreme. The army should be built up of several different "modules".

It seems like a lot of work just to make a unit perform as well as equivalents do just for showing up.

Wayniac wrote:
I think while it's gimmicky, a big squad of 20 CSM with Pistol+Chainsword, 2x Flamers, Champion w/Combi-Flamer + Chainaxe, Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath might not be that bad if properly supported (both with characters and with other ranged units). The problem is that's 291 points and requires more points in support.

Like anything else, the CSM army has to be the sum of its parts, not single gimmicks that are taken to the extreme. The army should be built up of several different "modules".

Easy enough, I think. A couple havok units, da, and lord. 20 csm, da, exalted. Discordant, MoP, and daemon engines.

Cultists are solid when you can bubble them s 5++ before the enemy can shoot and the other stuff.

Interesting times ahead.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It seems like a lot of work just to make a unit perform as well as equivalents do just for showing up.

Well, yes and no. The unit is not as good just for showing up as other armies. But we have like 3x as many buff options as other armies too. So it's gonna be about finding the right ratio of units to characters and maximizing those buffs.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It seems like a lot of work just to make a unit perform as well as equivalents do just for showing up.

Well, yes and no. The unit is not as good just for showing up as other armies. But we have like 3x as many buff options as other armies too. So it's gonna be about finding the right ratio of units to characters and maximizing those buffs.

Exactly. Is it going to be a choice you pick if you are in a very competitive ITC meta or if you intend to try to go top 20 in LVO? No, of course not. But in a case like that 90% of the book is junk anyway. It does seem like an interesting thing to do for local metas that aren't hyper-competitive. It requires experimentation like most everything else in the Chaos army.

How much stacking works though?

I mean I've looked at say possessed - who theoretically can get a 3++ (earth+tzeentch), with 2 wounds with a -1 to hit (apostle). They do D3 S6 attacks AP-2. which is a bit random, but you can save a reroll, and stack more buffs on them as required.

But will they do enough to force my opponent to shoot them. Or will they just focus on killing everything else, and deal with that squad last (preferably after all the characters have been sniped out)?

I feel its getting a bit death star. With buffing characters this is going to be 700ish points. Is it going to really do enough given it will do literally nothing for the first, and potentially second turn of the game? I guess you have to play it and see.

Tyel wrote:
How much stacking works though?

I mean I've looked at say possessed - who theoretically can get a 3++ (earth+tzeentch), with 2 wounds with a -1 to hit (apostle). They do D3 S6 attacks AP-2. which is a bit random, but you can save a reroll, and stack more buffs on them as required.

But will they do enough to force my opponent to shoot them. Or will they just focus on killing everything else, and deal with that squad last (preferably after all the characters have been sniped out)?

I feel its getting a bit death star. With buffing characters this is going to be 700ish points. Is it going to really do enough given it will do literally nothing for the first, and potentially second turn of the game? I guess you have to play it and see.

Consider a list that uses 20 nurgle possessed with a nurgle sorc giving them -1 to be hit and a priest giving them -1 to be hit. This unit is insanely inefficient to shoot at, and with more character buffs and specialist detachment traits, can threaten any unit in close combat. You run a lot of characters up behind it who can't be shot because of character rule. Then have the rest of your army be longer ranged or vehicles or something else, and you're looking at a pretty nasty skew list that leaves your opponent very few good targeting options. Terminators might also be good for this. (10 alpha legion nurgle terminators with combi-plasma. -3 to be hit and can nuke anything!)

Or consider just running a ton of 5 man cheap terminators, csm, and havoc squads with a good mixing of characters (probably as alpha legion) so that every squad is always going to have a buff up and at least one aura. Could be solid mid-fielder all rounders. I haven't run the math on just how efficient that sort of thing would be yet. In the past we know it wasn't efficient enough. But now we have new buffs, new weapons, and some points changes. So it's entirely possible that something that wasn't efficient before will be efficient now.

If we are going to actually point out how crap the CSMs are, we should do it the same way we do Guardsmen. Basically, how awesome they CAN be.

With no orders, and no unit buffs, a IS sucks. But with all factors in play they become overpowered for the cost.

Don't CSMs get essentially:

Re-roll wounds with a DA near
Re-roll hits with an AS near
Exploding 6's in melee across the entire army when facing Imperium units
Warp/Summoning shenanigans (Very unsure of myself here but I thought they can do silly things like Cultists do)
+1s to Strength, Wound rolls, and attacks when near certain leaders

I mean, yeah, they aren't awesome as the new shiny bois, but properly executed, a CSM rush is a pretty awful thing to have to deal with, when your opponent spends next to nothing to achieve it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If we are going to actually point out how crap the CSMs are, we should do it the same way we do Guardsmen. Basically, how awesome they CAN be.

With no orders, and no unit buffs, a IS sucks. But with all factors in play they become overpowered for the cost.

Don't CSMs get essentially:

Re-roll wounds with a DA near
Re-roll hits with an AS near
Exploding 6's in melee across the entire army when facing Imperium units
Warp/Summoning shenanigans (Very unsure of myself here but I thought they can do silly things like Cultists do)
+1s to Strength, Wound rolls, and attacks when near certain leaders

I mean, yeah, they aren't awesome as the new shiny bois, but properly executed, a CSM rush is a pretty awful thing to have to deal with, when your opponent spends next to nothing to achieve it.

Re-roll wounds in melee is from Exalted Champion
Re-roll all hits from a Dark Apostle Prayer (melee only), or Abaddon, or 1's from lords (also various niche strats)
CSM have no warp/summoning shenanigans
I'm not aware of any leaders that give them a bonus to strength. A DA prayer can give +1 to wound, as can VotLW strat if they are a legion unit. Don't think any character gives them an attack bonus.

So some of that stuff, yes.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If we are going to actually point out how crap the CSMs are, we should do it the same way we do Guardsmen. Basically, how awesome they CAN be.

With no orders, and no unit buffs, a IS sucks. But with all factors in play they become overpowered for the cost.

Don't CSMs get essentially:

Re-roll wounds with a DA near
Re-roll hits with an AS near
Exploding 6's in melee across the entire army when facing Imperium units
Warp/Summoning shenanigans (Very unsure of myself here but I thought they can do silly things like Cultists do)
+1s to Strength, Wound rolls, and attacks when near certain leaders

I mean, yeah, they aren't awesome as the new shiny bois, but properly executed, a CSM rush is a pretty awful thing to have to deal with, when your opponent spends next to nothing to achieve it.

Infantry squads outshoot and are more durable than several other troop choices for the cost. What are you babbling about?

Welcome to 40k. Apparently 'being Chaos' is reason enough for GW to overprice and under-represent the 'biggest, baddest faction' in 40k.

It's why our main source of vehicles, daemon engines, hit on 4's instead of 3's like space marines.

It's why our cultists, despite losing legion traits, are still 5 points instead of 4 like guardsmen that get orders and regiments.

It's why our space marines can be kitted out to be as expensive as a Knight Gallant and yet do 100% less on the table.

It's why our Obliterators went up 50% in points for a huge increase in base size and for only 2 extra shots, oh and some melee that they'd prefer not to use because they'll be too busy shooting.

It's why the Marks do nothing except unlock the ability to take Icons that do less than they did before. Just look at the Icon of Excess. Last edition it was a 5+FNP. Now it makes us slightly better against Imperium units in close combat. Does nothing against Eldar, Slaanesh's favored enemy.

But hey, our armies will look a lot cooler on the table before we have to remove our models from it.

drbored wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Apparently 'being Chaos' is reason enough for GW to overprice and under-represent the 'biggest, baddest faction' in 40k.

It's why our main source of vehicles, daemon engines, hit on 4's instead of 3's like space marines.

It's why our cultists, despite losing legion traits, are still 5 points instead of 4 like guardsmen that get orders and regiments.

It's why our space marines can be kitted out to be as expensive as a Knight Gallant and yet do 100% less on the table.

It's why our Obliterators went up 50% in points for a huge increase in base size and for only 2 extra shots, oh and some melee that they'd prefer not to use because they'll be too busy shooting.

It's why the Marks do nothing except unlock the ability to take Icons that do less than they did before. Just look at the Icon of Excess. Last edition it was a 5+FNP. Now it makes us slightly better against Imperium units in close combat. Does nothing against Eldar, Slaanesh's favored enemy.

But hey, our armies will look a lot cooler on the table before we have to remove our models from it.

The best part about csm is, that there still are worse things in the overall faction

Not Online!!! wrote:

drbored wrote:
Welcome to 40k. Apparently 'being Chaos' is reason enough for GW to overprice and under-represent the 'biggest, baddest faction' in 40k.

It's why our main source of vehicles, daemon engines, hit on 4's instead of 3's like space marines.

It's why our cultists, despite losing legion traits, are still 5 points instead of 4 like guardsmen that get orders and regiments.

It's why our space marines can be kitted out to be as expensive as a Knight Gallant and yet do 100% less on the table.

It's why our Obliterators went up 50% in points for a huge increase in base size and for only 2 extra shots, oh and some melee that they'd prefer not to use because they'll be too busy shooting.

It's why the Marks do nothing except unlock the ability to take Icons that do less than they did before. Just look at the Icon of Excess. Last edition it was a 5+FNP. Now it makes us slightly better against Imperium units in close combat. Does nothing against Eldar, Slaanesh's favored enemy.

But hey, our armies will look a lot cooler on the table before we have to remove our models from it.

The best part about csm is, that there still are worse things in the overall faction

Yep. It's pretty sad. I've gotten used to being slapped by GW again and again, paying reparations for 3.5 even though I never played it, apparently. I remember when the 6th edition Codex came out and then-prophet Phil Kelly, who had written the glorious revamp of the Dark Eldar Codex, lost all credibility when he said that the 6th edition Codex was an 'homage' to the 5th edition Codex, which was merely a blandening for the entire faction. That was a sad day. I remember when they came out with traitor legion traits for Chaos in 7th edition only to wipe the slate clean a few months later with 8th edition and give us worse legion traits across the board. That was just bad.

We used to have flavor, be able to take all sorts of fluffy thins and remain relatively competitive, even back in 5th, 6th, and 7th. Now? Half the legion traits do nothing, Chaos Marines are suffering from the same problems as Tacticals but we don't have Primaris as a fall-back options, don't have any access to storm shields, our marks and icons have been blanded down to near uselessness, and even with this big update, half of our kits are still ancient.

The worst part is imagining that it'll be another 3-5 years before we get another model update (bar World Eaters and Emperor's Children). Oh well. Back to waiting for Sisters of Battle.

drbored wrote:


Yep. It's pretty sad. I've gotten used to being slapped by GW again and again, paying reparations for 3.5 even though I never played it, apparently. I remember when the 6th edition Codex came out and then-prophet Phil Kelly, who had written the glorious revamp of the Dark Eldar Codex, lost all credibility when he said that the 6th edition Codex was an 'homage' to the 5th edition Codex, which was merely a blandening for the entire faction. That was a sad day. I remember when they came out with traitor legion traits for Chaos in 7th edition only to wipe the slate clean a few months later with 8th edition and give us worse legion traits across the board. That was just bad.

We used to have flavor, be able to take all sorts of fluffy thins and remain relatively competitive, even back in 5th, 6th, and 7th. Now? Half the legion traits do nothing, Chaos Marines are suffering from the same problems as Tacticals but we don't have Primaris as a fall-back options, don't have any access to storm shields, our marks and icons have been blanded down to near uselessness, and even with this big update, half of our kits are still ancient.

The worst part is imagining that it'll be another 3-5 years before we get another model update (bar World Eaters and Emperor's Children). Oh well. Back to waiting for Sisters of Battle.

I feel like you and I are reading two different sets of news.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

drbored wrote:


Yep. It's pretty sad. I've gotten used to being slapped by GW again and again, paying reparations for 3.5 even though I never played it, apparently. I remember when the 6th edition Codex came out and then-prophet Phil Kelly, who had written the glorious revamp of the Dark Eldar Codex, lost all credibility when he said that the 6th edition Codex was an 'homage' to the 5th edition Codex, which was merely a blandening for the entire faction. That was a sad day. I remember when they came out with traitor legion traits for Chaos in 7th edition only to wipe the slate clean a few months later with 8th edition and give us worse legion traits across the board. That was just bad.

We used to have flavor, be able to take all sorts of fluffy thins and remain relatively competitive, even back in 5th, 6th, and 7th. Now? Half the legion traits do nothing, Chaos Marines are suffering from the same problems as Tacticals but we don't have Primaris as a fall-back options, don't have any access to storm shields, our marks and icons have been blanded down to near uselessness, and even with this big update, half of our kits are still ancient.

The worst part is imagining that it'll be another 3-5 years before we get another model update (bar World Eaters and Emperor's Children). Oh well. Back to waiting for Sisters of Battle.

I feel like you and I are reading two different sets of news.

Same news, just vastly different expectations for what Chaos as a faction should be.

I meant more along the line of non csm Chaos armies.

That said 7th was one blunder after another so I am not surprised.

I wouldn't call them total trash, 3 min sized units +2 hq gets you 8cp. They can sit on a objective in cover with a 2+ vs mortars and generate the cps which chaos immensely hungers for. (bloodletters 6cp, tzaangors3cp, slaneesh shoot twice combo 3cp, any codex deamon unit basically 2-3). Ill take my red corsairs dirty 17 into my start game with 13 cp have 0 free toolbox cp lists any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wouldn't call them total trash, 3 min sized units +2 hq gets you 8cp. They can sit on a objective in cover with a 2+ vs mortars and generate the cps which chaos immensely hungers for. (bloodletters 6cp, tzaangors3cp, slaneesh shoot twice combo 3cp, any codex deamon unit basically 2-3). Ill take my red corsairs dirty 17 into my start game with 13 cp have 0 free toolbox cp lists any day.

A version of power armored space marine sucks.

In other news... water is wet.

I do think it's strange that power armor is suddenly bad, and the cause seems to be the return of save modifiers, but in 2nd edition (the last time there were save modifiers) power armor was pretty good.

Power Armor is bad because the cost to durability and offensive ability on Power Armor units is off. A 13 Point Space Marine is twice as twice the offense and defensive as a 4 Point Infantry Squad model. Do you see the problem?

drbored wrote:


It's why our Obliterators went up 50% in points for a huge increase in base size and for only 2 extra shots, oh and some melee that they'd prefer not to use because they'll be too busy shooting.

They went up 50% in cost for a 50% increase in shooting, better melee and T5 and this is supposed to be evidence that GW hates Chaos?



Can I get some hate too please?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

drbored wrote:


Yep. It's pretty sad. I've gotten used to being slapped by GW again and again, paying reparations for 3.5 even though I never played it, apparently. I remember when the 6th edition Codex came out and then-prophet Phil Kelly, who had written the glorious revamp of the Dark Eldar Codex, lost all credibility when he said that the 6th edition Codex was an 'homage' to the 5th edition Codex, which was merely a blandening for the entire faction. That was a sad day. I remember when they came out with traitor legion traits for Chaos in 7th edition only to wipe the slate clean a few months later with 8th edition and give us worse legion traits across the board. That was just bad.

We used to have flavor, be able to take all sorts of fluffy thins and remain relatively competitive, even back in 5th, 6th, and 7th. Now? Half the legion traits do nothing, Chaos Marines are suffering from the same problems as Tacticals but we don't have Primaris as a fall-back options, don't have any access to storm shields, our marks and icons have been blanded down to near uselessness, and even with this big update, half of our kits are still ancient.

The worst part is imagining that it'll be another 3-5 years before we get another model update (bar World Eaters and Emperor's Children). Oh well. Back to waiting for Sisters of Battle.

I feel like you and I are reading two different sets of news.

Nah, just an optimist/pessimist view I think.

On the pessimist side:

-GW remains shackled to what's kept space marines bottom tier all edition, no legion traits on vehicles and a 13ppm baseline for power armor is pretty terribad.

-Oblits undoubtedly got worse. They were a borderline tournament competitive unit before, now they are fairly bad. I don't know if they're centurion-tier, but they definitely got revamped with those gak sandwiches in mind.

-Terminators remain Terminators, Raptors remain Raptors, CSMs remain CSMs, only very small updates to the basic power armored core of the CSM range means they're going to be in a fairly similar spot powerwise, in my opinion. Chaos Terminators for example still pay a 3ppm spike tax over loyalist CSMs, which is bizarre given that it seems GW DOES KNOW it's ridiculous that they pay that and yet, still chose not to drop them down to 23 to fully match for some baffling reason.

On the optimist side:

-There were a number of important, albeit small buffs. The new reaper cannons are the bomb, and being available to 5-man CSM squads (my rubrics cry dusty tears) is pretty nice. 85pts for a unit that standing still puts out 8 S5 AP-1 shots and 8 S4 AP- shots is pretty decent antiinfantry dakka. Chainaxes on terminators is also a big boost, as with no legion trait that helps get in off deep strike terminators want to be as shooty as possible. IIRC chaos terminators are under 30ppm for a basic dude putting down 4 bolter shots at 24 at all times, which is not too shabby, and you now have two different means to make combi-plasmas on them incapable of overheating (new Priest Prayer and Prescience)

-The new priest basically gives you a second psychic power list where every power has an 83.3% chance of going off and is unblockable. For 110pts he's a bit pricy but a +1 to hit power that stacks with your other +1 to hit power in an army that has access to a double shoot stratagem...That's fairly tasty.

-The red corsairs detachment is a significant advantage in the competitive soup game for Chaos. an 8CP battalion grants very close to the CPs per point spent that the loyal 32 gives, which for a CP thirsty army like CSM is a big deal.

We will see chaos marines and chaos marine soup performing better on the competitive stage. however I can 100% also see a dedicated CSM player disappointed in this release for many reasons.

We will see chaos marines and chaos marine soup performing better on the competitive stage. however I can 100% also see a dedicated CSM player disappointed in this release for many reasons.

I think it's important to note that there's a difference between a list being good competitively, and having an interesting and fun ruleset to build from.

That's why CSM in 8th have disappointed me, because the list feels stripped down even if it has good options.

Also, a lot of the options do seem really good for everything other than like extremely cutthroat metas or if you're trying to reach top 20 in LVO. For everyone else, there are a lot of great options, even some new life into CSM (and I'm not talking about the "heretical 17" red corsair soup) that I think will shine in local meta, maybe even beyond.

It's only the ultra-competitive ITC metas where it might fall flat but those are largely stagnant anyways and 90% of everyone's codex is garbage by that metric.