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You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. Or, have a number of lists and randomly select them. That's what I do a lot. List tailoring is complete BS.

What if I happen to know that Bob wants to see if he can handle the worst my codex can throw at him, Sam just wants to throw dice and not have it be a route in either direction, and George doesn't really care as long as theres sum krumpin ta be had?

List tailoring for tactical advantage is bad. But there are times your list might vary based on who your playing for reasons other than maximizing the odds that you're going to win.

And that's before we even start talking about narrative.

If I show up, and there's a Tyranid player and two Marine players, and we want to do a 2v2, I'm certainly going to list tailor; only one of my Farseers and none of my Phoenix Lords would ever work with the Tyranids directly, but the Cult of Lokus (long homebrew fluff explaination) does so readily! So I'm certainly going to throw together a list that only includes those who would follow Lokus in his schemes.

I don't really know, for sure, if it's going to be a 2k game, 1500 game, 1250, allies, or what game. I don't know if I'm going up against someone who's sick of Harlequins. Or just scared of Reapers. There are far too many permutations of what I might play to build a list for each. And, even if that were possible, selecting a list from such a wide selection introduces the same concern.

TLDR: that's how you play, and probably fits what you're looking for in this game. It's not how I play, and would detract from what I'm looking for in this game.

Martel732 wrote:
You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. Or, have a number of lists and randomly select them. That's what I do a lot. List tailoring is complete BS.

yea... it does suck to show up to play a game and then somebody want to play, you start pulling out models for your take all comers and they start building thier list seeing what you are unpacking >_< there is one player here who is notorious for that, if I unpack my horde orks suddenly he has flamers all over the place. if i bring my mechanical orks... battlecannons and lascannons for days with coincidently zero flamers.

I have zero tolerance. I call them out as cheaters. I dont care if they get mad.

I'm glad that hasn't been a concern in my meta (to my knowledge). Resorting to what y'all are talking about would suck for me.

Resorting? Seems like a logical default to me. You are stuck with one list at any event, after all. If i had multiple factions, i wouldnt tell my opponent which one it was beforehand.

Martel732 wrote:
Resorting? Seems like a logical default to me.

Seems like a logical construct to maximize competition.

You are stuck with one list at any event, after all.

If you only play PUGs to get better for Events, then that makes sense. If you play PUGs entirely for other reasons, it doesn't really matter.

If i had multiple factions, i wouldnt tell my opponent which one it was beforehand.

It's a lot harder to set up a narrative if you don't know what you're up against. While some stories can begin with going in blind, when every story does, it's cliche/bland.

TLDR: sounds like a sane and logical (and good) system where all players are focusing on being as competitive as possible. But sounds like gak for me. No huge surprise - there are a lot of different reasons why different people play this game.

Am I the only person left on the planet that uses a codex, tablet, and only occasionally a calculator?

Just Tony wrote:Am I the only person left on the planet that uses a codex, tablet, and only occasionally a calculator?

Probably. Tablets suck, the mud dries out too quickly, and the stylus is always spreading it everywhere, and they're so heavy to carry. Upgrade to papyrus paper, like the rest of the modern world.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. Or, have a number of lists and randomly select them. That's what I do a lot. List tailoring is complete BS.

yea... it does suck to show up to play a game and then somebody want to play, you start pulling out models for your take all comers and they start building thier list seeing what you are unpacking >_< there is one player here who is notorious for that, if I unpack my horde orks suddenly he has flamers all over the place. if i bring my mechanical orks... battlecannons and lascannons for days with coincidently zero flamers.

In my home group, we always tailored to each other. I don't understand this aversion to it. We knew what each other played, and how we played them, and built our lists around what we knew that person had available and usually brought, and what we expected them to bring. I think an important part of list building and the strategy thereof is predicting what your opponent is going to bring to the table, how they're going to fight, and how you're going to make sure that fails.

I think a small amount of tailoring is alright. For example, if my all comers list has some anti-psyker but I'm playing Tau, then it makes perfect sense to tweak it and use those points elsewhere.

But I completely agree that writing your entire list based on what your opponent is taking is not cool and I wouldn't play you if you tried it with me.

Your imagination, the tabletop, then something to add up the points. If you get in a rut like I did, the community.

For tournament builds I mean, there's always research. Somebody somewhere has science'd the heresy out of optimal builds for just about every standard point value. Start there, think it over, understand the tactics of that army comp. Play around with battlescribe and crunch numbers. Add your own twist to it.

All said., it's down to the dice and no app can account for that.
Rather be lucky than good

 Just Tony wrote:
Am I the only person left on the planet that uses a codex, tablet, and only occasionally a calculator?

Possibly. In the age of apps you may be alone. But wait the guys from oumuamua might be with you.
Well, I'm using only battlescribe and have not used any other builder.
It works for me especially when I use it at the pc because then you can seem all options at a glimpse.

Martel732 wrote:
You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. List tailoring is complete BS.

I use BattleScribe but I agree, don't list tailor when you see your opponent's army. Having said that, with friends we usually discuss the sort of things we'll bring in advance then share BattleScribe lists beforehand.

Similarly, also bring your codex in case there are rules that need checking during the game. I trust my opponents but I don't know all their rules. When something game changing is dropped out of the blue it's just courteous to read out the exact wording if your opponent wasn't aware it even existed. The fluff around new rules can also be good to read out for effect. People also make mistakes too, and finding out you lost a game because your opponent was getting their rules wrong (and you thought it seemed totally OP but there was no way to check) is frustrating to say the least.

I use Battlescribe but do miss WL army builder.
I think I still have print outs of lists I built with it waaaay back when. It had a nice little UI on it with good options.

Having said that BS is functional and seems to always be updated which is cool.

 Just Tony wrote:
Am I the only person left on the planet that uses a codex, tablet, and only occasionally a calculator?

I use both pen/paper/calculator and BattleScribe. One thing I noticed when I started using BS is I ended up with no idea what stuff actually cost. I think it's the disconnect between entering the units but not points cost that does it, but it meant it was a lot harder to alter lists in my head. Also, the BS UI is an affront to humanity and I think it actually takes longer to build an army like Deathwatch or Blood Angels using BS than it does using pen and paper because you have so many units that have options on each individual model.

Pen.
Paper.
Calculator.

I don't use unreliable trash

I tend to use spreadsheets/word/pen&paper to work out my lists, then once I am fairly sure about it I will create it in Battlescribe which allows me to share the list with my opponent easily etc.

Therefore allowing me to double check/confirm that I have worked out the points etc. correctly.

p.s. If you use Battlescribe, and you wish to include an assassin and therefore require 85 reinforcement points etc. what is the best way to show that on Battlescribe? - nevermind, the latest BS update included an option for this.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Just Tony wrote:Am I the only person left on the planet that uses a codex, tablet, and only occasionally a calculator?

Probably. Tablets suck, the mud dries out too quickly, and the stylus is always spreading it everywhere, and they're so heavy to carry. Upgrade to papyrus paper, like the rest of the modern world.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. Or, have a number of lists and randomly select them. That's what I do a lot. List tailoring is complete BS.

yea... it does suck to show up to play a game and then somebody want to play, you start pulling out models for your take all comers and they start building thier list seeing what you are unpacking >_< there is one player here who is notorious for that, if I unpack my horde orks suddenly he has flamers all over the place. if i bring my mechanical orks... battlecannons and lascannons for days with coincidently zero flamers.

In my home group, we always tailored to each other. I don't understand this aversion to it. We knew what each other played, and how we played them, and built our lists around what we knew that person had available and usually brought, and what we expected them to bring. I think an important part of list building and the strategy thereof is predicting what your opponent is going to bring to the table, how they're going to fight, and how you're going to make sure that fails.

If both parties go into the game with that sure, might even add some fun for some people( though requires knowing your opponent before hand which often we randomize). but when you literally wait to start list building until the opponent is unpacking their models (who is using a take all comers list) and you watch what comes out and adjust your list accordingly? I mean most of us use the same list we would have used vs imperial knights or horde tyranids.

ValentineGames wrote:
Pen.
Paper.
Calculator.

I don't use unreliable trash

Well, a builder shows you all options at a glance and also takes into account the index.

Considering you don't always know what kind of game your playing theres no point in writing out a physical list copy.

I don't always know if im doing a 1500/2000 point game. Or if its gonna be a team game or a 3 player free for all. I just use battlescribe and make a list after we decide what kind of game we are playing. I don't even ask what my opponent is using.

If you pre-arrange your games with someone, sure go ahead, but generally since its just a friendly game with nothing at stake I don't care if my opponent tailors againgst me. Why would I?

Im not loosing anything by loosing or winning anything by winning. Im just going to play.

Its actually kind of fun to see someone come with a list tailored againgst you since you can see how good you really are.

 wuestenfux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Pen.
Paper.
Calculator.

I don't use unreliable trash

Well, a builder shows you all options at a glance and also takes into account the index.

And?
I'm sure people can turn off their call of battlefield games and spend 30 minutes writing a list.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Anotherguardsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm hoping that the official one will be great. But I'm not gonna hold my breath...

Official one? I didn't know they were planning on releasing their own, I even suggested it in the Community Survey and barring that, a partnership with Battlescribe to at least fix it's problems and make it with official data.

There even is an official one already on the Warhammer Community Page however, it only has powerlevels and no profiles / special rules with it so it's very basic. But they said they'll expand it.

Oh! I know exactly what you're talking about now, I have used it before but it gives nothing more than powerlevel, as you said so I didn't find it very useful. I do like how the UI is easy to use and a drop down type menu, I do hope they expand it and make it a tool worth using.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:

 filbert wrote:
I still use the WolfLair Army Builder too but I wonder how long data file support will continue for that.

Battlescribe is OK, I'm not a huge fan of the printed layout - I would rather it look more like Army Builder's does but it is useful enough to have on PCs where I don't have an Army Builder license.

I've just been using it to build lists, then writing the lists out in a format I like better later. For tournaments especially, I'll write out the list like a worksheet, with checkboxes for relic choices and pregame stratagems, since those can change on a game by game basis.

Do you have an example of how you write your revamped lists out by chance? I'm curious to see how you do it is all.

I used to use Army Builder, but their subscription model seriously ticked me off. These days, I use BattleScribe, and while the UI is pretty poor, it hasn’t let me down yet.

Personally, I can’t imagine trying to do pre-8E rosters by hand, and have had enough bad experience with people getting things wrong I wouldn’t trust them if they did.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You should have your list before you show up or even know your opponent. Or, have a number of lists and randomly select them. That's what I do a lot. List tailoring is complete BS.

yea... it does suck to show up to play a game and then somebody want to play, you start pulling out models for your take all comers and they start building thier list seeing what you are unpacking >_< there is one player here who is notorious for that, if I unpack my horde orks suddenly he has flamers all over the place. if i bring my mechanical orks... battlecannons and lascannons for days with coincidently zero flamers.

So you start unpacking your horde orks, wait until he's putting his flamers on the table, then start unpacking your mechanical orks into the actual play area. If he complains tell him your horde orks were in the way. If he starts swapping his flamers for lascannons, say "oh wait, that's not even the list I wanted to play" and then start swapping in the horde orks. Repeat until he storms out of the gaming area. Bonus points if he doesn't come back for a couple of weeks.

Well, battlescribe is not very printer friendly.
Are the other tools mentioned more printer friendly?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, battlescribe is not very printer friendly.
Are the other tools mentioned more printer friendly?

It is printer friendly if you take the time to customise the output.

 Anotherguardsman wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:

 filbert wrote:
I still use the WolfLair Army Builder too but I wonder how long data file support will continue for that.

Battlescribe is OK, I'm not a huge fan of the printed layout - I would rather it look more like Army Builder's does but it is useful enough to have on PCs where I don't have an Army Builder license.

I've just been using it to build lists, then writing the lists out in a format I like better later. For tournaments especially, I'll write out the list like a worksheet, with checkboxes for relic choices and pregame stratagems, since those can change on a game by game basis.

Do you have an example of how you write your revamped lists out by chance? I'm curious to see how you do it is all.

Sure. This is a list I took to a tournament yesterday. I generally always used the 3 traits option for the Knights, and usually used the same ones, but I just fill out the sheet and hand it to my opponent before the game starts so he knows what I have.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U1-oq5s2eOjPFDK8dAFwtjGCT1QjG18m7QnbXfyRkZ8/edit

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, battlescribe is not very printer friendly.
Are the other tools mentioned more printer friendly?

It is printer friendly if you take the time to customise the output.

Well, I've copy and pasted the text into a .doc file.
But customization takes quite a while.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, battlescribe is not very printer friendly.
Are the other tools mentioned more printer friendly?

It is printer friendly if you take the time to customise the output.

Well, I've copy and pasted the text into a .doc file.
But customization takes quite a while.

No, I mean Click "Share Roster > Custom" and customise it there.

FWIW, while it obviously isn't either an automatic or instant update, with a spreadsheet you can easily set it up so that you change a single (points) value on one master sheet and have that value update across all your list sheets.

It's effort, but not very much, and even if it was more effort I'd still use the spreadsheet method 'cause it allows me to track and stay on top of so many other things than just points, too.