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Wayniac wrote:
RE: Tailoring. It's not cheating, full stop. It's a jerk move to do unless it's agreed upon (some groups enjoy trying to "one-up" each other), but it's not at all "cheating".

Depends on one fact and one fact only:
Did you view what your opponent was about to play for that session and picked a tailored accordingly?
Or did you bring a list based on a best "guess" of what you think your opponent will bring (like he does not change his list)?

Certainty or guess are two different things.

Didn't previous editions have an explicit instruction that part of writing an army roster was exchanging what factions you were playing before writing the list? Granted this was in the saner times of a single FoC and not EveryoneSoup.

Wayniac wrote:
RE: Tailoring. It's not cheating, full stop. It's a jerk move to do unless it's agreed upon (some groups enjoy trying to "one-up" each other), but it's not at all "cheating".

for a pickup game with no predetermined rules and just throwing down dice not cheating. In league games where said rules include taking the same list and/or predetermined lists before the match then it is. Even in tournaments I can say I have had to call a lot of people out on swapping models that do not match the list. like space marine sargents who on thier official printed out lists have combi plasma, but since I am playing orks they are suddenly combi flamers and "oops i forgot to update my tournament list but see on my phone in battlescribe it says flamers" or suddenly thier army builder list has a sarg with a plasma pistol that is not on their submitted list and a piece of wargear is no longer on a vehicle. for me its an easy solution if this is a tournament and your list says this is your equipment then its what was on the list you submitted, lets call over a judge to have you DQ'd for cheating or you can use what is on this list i am holding.

It can easily have a greater effect than other forms of cheating. Its cheating.

Sounds like you are talking about a bunch of different things.

If I play a tournament I have a presubmitted list I play. What's there to discuss about that?

If I play a casual game against my AM friend I pay special attention to my anti tank elements. If I play my tyrannid friend I make sure to have some Tesla immortals for his genestealers, though I have no clue of he's actually taking them. Is that tailoring? Don't know. It certainly isn't cheating.

If I go to a gaming club I pack a reasonable list and bring the models. Depending on how things turn out, if I meet someone new who wants to play I ask what kind of game he wants I guess. And of it's something my necrons are I'll prepared I tell him I'd like to make some adjustments as my necrons would otherwise struggle against his Dark Eldars. Or something along those lines.

Under no circumstances would I wait to see someone's list and then pull something out of the hat to counter that. Except if there's some sort of agreement on that. Perhaps he dares me to beat his list?

Martel732 wrote:
It can easily have a greater effect than other forms of cheating. Its cheating.

you can't say that because it has a greater effect, its cheating. cheating is by definition doing something against the rules. as other have said, its unfair, but not cheating.

Personnally i find that theres different levels of tailoring.
basic level : No tailoring, we both build TAC lists, this is fine

Level 1 : i know before the match that i'll be playing against drukhari. I play admech and put some icarus arrays on my crawlers before showing up to the store for the game (this is fine by me, most people i play with do things like this, it encourages players in building smart lists).

Level 2 : I know before the match that i'll be playing against a drukhari list with lots of footsoldiers since thats what the guy im playing against usually brings. I put kastellan robots in my list so i can shred them quickly (This is borderline, but still acceptable if both sides communicate beforehand so they can both tailor. I would keep this level for narrative games since it requires listbuilding on both sides of the table for a story based game).

Level 3 : I dont know my opponent's army but when i show up to the store and see that hes playing tank heavy, i load up on neutron lasers and lascannon (this is still not cheating, its just being That guy and i personally wouldnt play against a 2nd time against someone that does that, i expect lists to be built before showing up for the game)

Level 4 : I get to the store and i measuring and sewing my opponent's clothing


basically the game is a social contract, both players should communicate on what they want. do you want a blind game? a narrative game where a defender wants to be on the edge of death, facing an unstoppable enemy while waiting for reinforcements.

If youre in a tournament, lists should be given in at the start, with no option to change them, since this is an actual rule, changing the list would be cheating

VladimirHerzog wrote:


basically the game is a social contract, both players should communicate on what they want. do you want a blind game? a narrative game where a defender wants to be on the edge of death, facing an unstoppable enemy while waiting for reinforcements.

If youre in a tournament, lists should be given in at the start, with no option to change them, since this is an actual rule, changing the list would be cheating

Yup. I'll often tell people exactly what I"m bringing, and that I'm bringing a tournament list, and that I want them to build their list to counter mine. I'd like to see what a "worst case" scenario is like, so I know how to deal with it if it ever comes up in a tournament. I encourage list tailoring against myself whenever possible.

I played a WHFB match once where I "list tailored" right as we deployed.

I was playing HE, and had no idea what army I was going to face. I had a Lvl4 Archmage of Metal with the book. He shows up, we start talking deployment, and he's Warriors of Chaos - with mostly Warriors. Lvl4 Archmage of Metal would melt his army like candle wax.

I asked him if it was OK if I "list tailored" in a different mage (Heavens, I think I went with) so we could have a more fun game.

Turned into a fun, balanced game - but only because I tailored.

I heard Notepad.exe is pretty decent nowadays.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I heard Notepad.exe is pretty decent nowadays.

Notepad++ is sooooo much better.

I used to do my Battletech sheets in notepad, using advanced ASCII characters to make borders and boxes. I don’t think these days I ‘d like to try that sort of thing again.

If you were a *real* nerd, you'd make your army list in a text editor built in redstone in Minecraft.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
I heard Notepad.exe is pretty decent nowadays.

Notepad++ is sooooo much better.

I used to do my Battletech sheets in notepad, using advanced ASCII characters to make borders and boxes. I don’t think these days I ‘d like to try that sort of thing again.

Real men use vi

 Da-Rock wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Pen.
Paper.
Calculator.

I don't use unreliable trash

Well, a builder shows you all options at a glance and also takes into account the index.

And?
I'm sure people can turn off their call of battlefield games and spend 30 minutes writing a list.

I'm still amazed by the human brain.....

At three different game stores having tournaments in my area, OVER 60% of the hand made army lists had errors from people like you....and all of them thought they were super duper smart.

Well American education these days is pretty poor. So adding numbers might be too much to ask.

People running numbers and executing clear instructions is just not what they're good at.

When I want numbers ran or steps executed, I want a machine, not a person. The failure rate in a person executing a simple task with no complexity or missing knowledge is in the single-digit percents.

What I want from the person is to come up with an interesting army composition or way of fitting it all together.

People who pride themselves in not making mistakes or in "being smart enough to do it this way" tend to cause more mistakes. It's basically the "premature optimization" problem software suffers from - people being too smart by half do things to "make it better" tend to perform worse than people who don't.

Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

A lot of small, easy calculations makes it *more* likely there will be a mistake.

If you have 100 tasks with a 1% chance of failure, you're more likely to fail (at least once) than if you had 1 task with a 50% chance of failure.

I don't have a problem with people using paper/pencil/calculator; I have a problem with the assumption that "you" (as in anyone) with paper/pencil/calculator are less likely to make a mistake than someone using BattleScribe.

And it's not just a case of "Can/can't do it without". Some people can do it without Battlescribe (or even a calculator) - but don't want to. My best friend in highschool was stupidly good at math. Taking 500s at a local college by junior year of highschool. Top 10 in the state by Freshman year for MathLeague. Could multiply large numbers in his head without issue. We were at a Math League event late in the year, looking at the scores. A handful of 3-digit numbers for each of a half-dozen schools. He pulled out a calculator to add them together. My point is, use the tools you want to use, but don't assume people who use easier tools do so because they're not good enough to not use them.

Not everyone I've ever heard say that has made mistakes in their list, but everyone I've encountered who has made mistakes in their list has said that.

Even if the mathS is simple, you show your working and I know the codex, I don't want to spend even five minutes checking that your scrawled list adds up to what you claim it does as a sop to vanity and ego.

It's not about showing how super-duper good at mathS you are, it's a basic decency to your opponent. Just use a FSM-damned spreadsheet or builder-app.

Your position is also super, super, super ableist. They reckon between 3 and 6% of us suffer dyscalculia and plenty of others just plain aren't good at mathS and aren't accountable to your standards in any event.

ValentineGames wrote:
Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

Except it's not as easy as all that. The game has multiple rules sources, and updates to those rules sources. If you're making a list, you look up the value in your codex, then check CA 2018 to see if it's updated. Maybe it wasn't updated, but the cost of a weapon it's equipped with has been updated. If you miss that CA 2018 had an updated weapon cost, your adding invalid values, so your final answer will be wrong. I will always trust battlescribe over someone's pen and paper list, any day of the week.

I suppose 8th being a poorly done points train wreck is an issue. I keep forgetting how amateur it is

 Horst wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

Except it's not as easy as all that. The game has multiple rules sources, and updates to those rules sources. If you're making a list, you look up the value in your codex, then check CA 2018 to see if it's updated. Maybe it wasn't updated, but the cost of a weapon it's equipped with has been updated. If you miss that CA 2018 had an updated weapon cost, your adding invalid values, so your final answer will be wrong. I will always trust battlescribe over someone's pen and paper list, any day of the week.

Well... you have the rule books, i trust players with a book over using battlescribe always. If you cant be bother to buy the new rules i cant be bother to play with you.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Horst wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

Except it's not as easy as all that. The game has multiple rules sources, and updates to those rules sources. If you're making a list, you look up the value in your codex, then check CA 2018 to see if it's updated. Maybe it wasn't updated, but the cost of a weapon it's equipped with has been updated. If you miss that CA 2018 had an updated weapon cost, your adding invalid values, so your final answer will be wrong. I will always trust battlescribe over someone's pen and paper list, any day of the week.

Well... you have the rule books, i trust players with a book over using battlescribe always. If you cant be bother to buy the new rules i cant be bother to play with you.

It's not that I don't have the rules. I own all the rulebooks. It's still a massive pain in the ass that's more error-prone to actually write out a list with pencil and paper, instead of consulting 5+ separate sources for rules while making it. Realistically, I'd need the Astra Militarum, Imperial Knights, March White Dwarf, Chapter Approved, and the most recent FAQ and Designer's Commentary to reliably have all the rules. Like I said, I do own those (and take them to tournaments in case an opponent has a question) but it's not exactly easy to make a legal list in this game without an aide like Battlescribe. Players in your group must be amazingly intelligent and detail oriented, to not accidentally make a single mistake when building lists compared to Battlescribe, which has built-in validation of lists against known rules, and is constantly updated by players. Good for them. I still would ask to sit down and double-check someone's handwritten list by putting it into battlescribe before I play them in a tournament setting, because I truly do not trust people to not accidentally make a mistake.

 Horst wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Horst wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:
Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

Except it's not as easy as all that. The game has multiple rules sources, and updates to those rules sources. If you're making a list, you look up the value in your codex, then check CA 2018 to see if it's updated. Maybe it wasn't updated, but the cost of a weapon it's equipped with has been updated. If you miss that CA 2018 had an updated weapon cost, your adding invalid values, so your final answer will be wrong. I will always trust battlescribe over someone's pen and paper list, any day of the week.

Well... you have the rule books, i trust players with a book over using battlescribe always. If you cant be bother to buy the new rules i cant be bother to play with you.

It's not that I don't have the rules. I own all the rulebooks. It's still a massive pain in the ass that's more error-prone to actually write out a list with pencil and paper, instead of consulting 5+ separate sources for rules while making it. Realistically, I'd need the Astra Militarum, Imperial Knights, March White Dwarf, Chapter Approved, and the most recent FAQ and Designer's Commentary to reliably have all the rules. Like I said, I do own those (and take them to tournaments in case an opponent has a question) but it's not exactly easy to make a legal list in this game without an aide like Battlescribe. Players in your group must be amazingly intelligent and detail oriented, to not accidentally make a single mistake when building lists compared to Battlescribe, which has built-in validation of lists against known rules, and is constantly updated by players. Good for them. I still would ask to sit down and double-check someone's handwritten list by putting it into battlescribe before I play them in a tournament setting, because I truly do not trust people to not accidentally make a mistake.

No its not lol, literally take 2min........ to update a spreadsheet, i have mine on my phone. Its not hard dude.... FYI Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made.

I have all my armies in 1 spreadsheet in different tabs, its insanely easy to look up the points.

If its a tournament, i dont hand write, i print it out. And if you are so scared im cheating, then ask to read my points in my rule book. If yo are doing tournaments you will have a loose understand of other armies points, if not, then why are you even trying to be competitive or care?

Also, you dont have to be smart to add math up to 2000, especially with a calculator.


Here let me give you an example in my normal DE battalion

Archons 70pts, Venom Blade 2pts, 70+2 = 72pts
Another archon = 72pts
72+72 = 144pts

Kabals x5, 6pts each, hmm 5x6 = 30pts
Another 5man = 30pts
Another 5man = 30pts
30+30+30 (or 3x30) = 90pts

Ravager with 3 DC, 80pts + 15x3 = 125pts
Ravager = 125pts
Ravager = 125pts
125x3= 375pts

144+90+375 = 609pts

How hard was that? literally took me 3min to type that out and do the math. If you cant do basic math then you have the problem. IDK why you have such a problem the points are easy to save on your phone in a list and you dont need to be intelligent to do grade school math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FYI, I play Aedari soup, i need:

CWE book + faqs
Quins book + faqs
DE book + faqs
Index + faqs
CA + faqs
Big faq
I even need to add FW book + faq sometimes

I have a back pack i bring to tournaments, and never once did i need to look up points after my list was made, b.c its simple math, and it is easy to double check before the game starts or before you print.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No its not lol, literally take 2min........ to update a spreadsheet, i have mine on my phone. Its not hard dude.... FYI Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made.

Of course Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made. I still don't see why you wouldn't use it, and would instead spend the time creating your own version of it. If it's better than Battlescribe, put it on Github and make it open source or something.

I'm not overly worried about people cheating, I'm more worried about people making honest mistakes because the rules are spread all over the place in this game. Good for you that you know the points values of things in your army. I know most of the ones for my Guard and Knights armies as well. I could probably make a list with it without having to reference a codex. I'd still use Battlescribe to validate it, because I want to be able to show my opponent that it was checked by SOME kind of third party for validation.

 Horst wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No its not lol, literally take 2min........ to update a spreadsheet, i have mine on my phone. Its not hard dude.... FYI Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made.

Of course Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made. I still don't see why you wouldn't use it, and would instead spend the time creating your own version of it. If it's better than Battlescribe, put it on Github and make it open source or something.

I'm not overly worried about people cheating, I'm more worried about people making honest mistakes because the rules are spread all over the place in this game. Good for you that you know the points values of things in your army. I know most of the ones for my Guard and Knights armies as well. I could probably make a list with it without having to reference a codex. I'd still use Battlescribe to validate it, because I want to be able to show my opponent that it was checked by SOME kind of third party for validation.

B.c the time it takes to make 1 list, i can make my own on my phone, now i dont have to worry about someones else work. It literally took me 10min to make my spreadsheet that i can now customize builds faster than you can on battlescribe.

I still will use battlescribe time to time, but you insisting that my spreadhsheet is prone to be wrong and not trustworthy bc i did simple math is just stupid.

If it literally took you 10 minutes to extract every option and point value for the armies you use, out of a dozen rulebook, supplements, and errata, then yo you are a savant.

If you did that in 10 minutes with even a 95% accuracy, you're probably top-tenth-percentile (99.9%) at transcription.

Congratulations? You are freakishly good at a low skilled mechanical task?

You are betting the time and focus you put into it yielded a higher quality result than a fairly sizeable community that spends ridiculous amounts of time reviewing it's accuracy. Outside of being... seriously abnormal, or spending absurd amounts of time double checking, that sounds like a bad bet.

There is no part of Windows or Chrome that can't be written by someone in my profession. There is no way in hell I'm giving those up and writing my own.

Bharring wrote:
If it literally took you 10 minutes to extract every option and point value for the armies you use, out of a dozen rulebook, supplements, and errata, then yo you are a savant.

If you did that in 10 minutes with even a 95% accuracy, you're probably top-tenth-percentile (99.9%) at transcription.

Congratulations? You are freakishly good at a low skilled mechanical task?

You are betting the time and focus you put into it yielded a higher quality result than a fairly sizeable community that spends ridiculous amounts of time reviewing it's accuracy. Outside of being... seriously abnormal, or spending absurd amounts of time double checking, that sounds like a bad bet.

There is no part of Windows or Chrome that can't be written by someone in my profession. There is no way in hell I'm giving those up and writing my own.

Its a lot of Copy paste

Kabal | 6pts
Blaster | 17pts
Shredder | 8pts
Splinter c | 10pts
Dark L | 20pts

I copy/past it and then made it

Trueborn | 11pts
Blaster | 17pts
Shredder | 8pts
Splinter c | 10pts
Dark L | 20pts

Copy again

Scourge | 12pts
Blaster | 17pts
Shredder | 8pts
Splinter c | 10pts
Dark L | 20pts

Then with Excel or google docs, if you type the same thing... guess what! it remembers and you can let it auto complete it for you, I type B and blaster comes up, i type D and Dark lance comes up, i type Sp and Splinter cannon comes up, makes typing a lot faster.

Went in and did the points for the units, its not that hard guys, many units dont even have options like Mandrakes, Court, Beasts, etc.. It really doesnt take long. If you dont understand your army and fumbling around with what unit is allow to take what, then sure might take longer. Im double deficit dyslexia, if i can make a spreadsheet for my army in 10min i think you can too. I think you are just trying to make it sound harder than what it is so you can be lazy.

What happens if there's a Chapter Approved or Errata, and you miss a change? What happens if your spreadsheet is out of date and you don't realize it?

Battlescribe is crowdsourcing quality control. Yes, there are occasionally errors... that are quickly fixed by that crowd. If you have an error in your spreadsheet, then you may never catch it.

I still do not see why you would use your own system over a pre-built one. It's available as a free app for your phone... its not like it costs money. You can put together a list in 10 minutes easily with it. I'm just very confused why you would reinvent the wheel and risk invalid data when you don't have to.

 Horst wrote:
What happens if there's a Chapter Approved or Errata, and you miss a change? What happens if your spreadsheet is out of date and you don't realize it?

Battlescribe is crowdsourcing quality control. Yes, there are occasionally errors... that are quickly fixed by that crowd. If you have an error in your spreadsheet, then you may never catch it.

I still do not see why you would use your own system over a pre-built one. It's available as a free app for your phone... its not like it costs money. You can put together a list in 10 minutes easily with it. I'm just very confused why you would reinvent the wheel and risk invalid data when you don't have to.

I buy the new updated books and take 1-2min to fix them..... I have mind updated and fix before BS is normally.

And there isnt errors b.c i know my points and i double check time to time, and its never invalid. I dont understand why you think it is invald information...

Why? B.c it takes no time at all, i am in control of it.

The real question is, why are you so against me doing it? Why are you so defensive that i dont need BS and can make lists in minutes with spreadsheet? The spreadsheet doesnt cot me money either. and PS, BS does have errors, what if you didnt notice their errors?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Horst wrote:
What happens if there's a Chapter Approved or Errata, and you miss a change? What happens if your spreadsheet is out of date and you don't realize it?

Battlescribe is crowdsourcing quality control. Yes, there are occasionally errors... that are quickly fixed by that crowd. If you have an error in your spreadsheet, then you may never catch it.

I still do not see why you would use your own system over a pre-built one. It's available as a free app for your phone... its not like it costs money. You can put together a list in 10 minutes easily with it. I'm just very confused why you would reinvent the wheel and risk invalid data when you don't have to.

I buy the new updated books and take 1-2min to fix them..... I have mind updated and fix before BS is normally.

And there isnt errors b.c i know my points and i double check time to time, and its never invalid. I dont understand why you think it is invald information...

Why? B.c it takes no time at all, i am in control of it.

The real question is, why are you so against me doing it? Why are you so defensive that i dont need BS and can make lists in minutes with spreadsheet? The spreadsheet doesnt cot me money either. and PS, BS does have errors, what if you didnt notice their errors?

Hmmm,

I'm not reading anywhere where someone objected to you using a spreadsheet. I did read several examples of why people don't use it and why they don't, only to read you say how easy it is and how fast you can do it.....so what are you digging at?

An army builder app requires less initial build time and less maintenance then a spreadsheet.......plus the biggest factor is a very simple one that destroys your argument about how easy it is......not every has experience with spreadsheets and may not even have access to one that is any good.

Pushing as hard as you are about spreadsheets being the easiest and best just brings up an image of monkey's humping a doorknob rather than an "Ahhhh" moment.

ValentineGames wrote:
Except we do have a machine.
A calculator.
40k does NOT require complex maths.
It's as hard as 10+5=15. 15×10=150.
"Look mom me did math!"

How many points are 1 Kustom Boosta Blasta, 1 Shokkjump Dragsta, 1 Megatrakk Scrapjet and one Warboss with a PK?
How many points is a unit of Myphitic Blighthaulers?
How long did it take you to figure that out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

No its not lol, literally take 2min........ to update a spreadsheet, i have mine on my phone. Its not hard dude.... FYI Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made.

Of course Battlescribe is just a spreadsheet that someone made. I still don't see why you wouldn't use it, and would instead spend the time creating your own version of it. If it's better than Battlescribe, put it on Github and make it open source or something.

I'm not overly worried about people cheating, I'm more worried about people making honest mistakes because the rules are spread all over the place in this game. Good for you that you know the points values of things in your army. I know most of the ones for my Guard and Knights armies as well. I could probably make a list with it without having to reference a codex. I'd still use Battlescribe to validate it, because I want to be able to show my opponent that it was checked by SOME kind of third party for validation.

The big advantage of BattleScribe is that its data is reviewed by multiple people before initial releases and reviewed by a crowd after releases and thus always superior to anything done by a single person. Anyone who thinks he is never doing any mistakes is, as a matter of fact, wrong.

Most mistakes in BattleScribe's data are not related to point costs.