Loyalist spies in Chaos Space Marine legions?

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**ArcaneHorror**

beast_gts wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Was it a dreadnought or a helbrute? From what I've know, helbrutes are the ones that particularly go extremely insane.

Chaos dreadnoughts deteriorate into hellbrutes.

I thought that they were different. Chaos dreadnoughts are basically the Chaos version of Imperial dreadnoughts; fallen soldiers placed inside a battlesuit so that they can keep fighting even after death, and many are treated with great honor. Helbrutes, meanwhile, are where CSM who have failed in a mission or are captured by their opponent are placed into a battlesuit rippling with warp power, are in constant agony and insanity, and are basically used as meat shields and dakka bombs against a particular warband or Legion's enemies.

**AndrewGPaul**

No, Hellbrute = Dreadnought (the term "Hellbrute" was only introduced in 6th edition, in any case). It's been the case since 2nd edition that Chaos Dreadnought pilots were generally encased against their will and left to go insane. I suppose there may be some traitor forces who use dreadnoughts in the same way as loyalists but not many; the Crimson Slaughter caught on to the "dreadnought interrment as punishment" idea pretty quickly.

**Table**

LumenPraebeo wrote:
I say yes. Why not? It adds more sophistication to the lore. But like others said, it might be a lot harder with some of the more intoxicated legions, like the Deathguard or Emperors Children.

Id say impossible.

**=Angel=**

Table wrote:
LumenPraebeo wrote:
I say yes. Why not? It adds more sophistication to the lore. But like others said, it might be a lot harder with some of the more intoxicated legions, like the Deathguard or Emperors Children.

Id say impossible.

There could be comedy value in a loyalist spy trying to infiltrate the Thousand Sons:

Wearing a Rubric Marine's armour and constantly having to constantly fight against the spirit of its owner

Trying to glean information through casual conversation with Rubric Marines (all is dust)

All the leaders of the legion are psychic and know exactly what he is, chuckling about it psychically with one another

Leaders constantly announce false plans loudly then psychically communicate the real plans

Loyalist response forces are repeatedly sent into deathworld jungles, methane swamps and warp rifts but the Thousand sons never show up.

**Brotherjulian**

ArcaneHorror wrote:
ScarletRose wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
If one did want to successfully a legion or warband, a SM would probably not be the best choice. Instead, having a spy disguise themselves as a cultist or other low-level follower might work better, as they could observe the CSM without having to directly engage with them and try to be one of them. Also, as a baseline human physically cannot do many things that SM can, they would not be expected to take part in some of the most extreme forms of Chaos worship, nor would they be expected to perform superhuman feats in battle. They thus might largely be ignored, allowing the spy to observe from a safe distance and be at far less risk of succumbing to Chaos or being discovered.

That would definitely be the way to go, but I think it would still be extremely risky. Cultists and serfs are treated as disposable by a lot of the chaos legions, in addition where they are portrayed with any detail they seem to have their own cultures that would be hard to blend in with.

I'm thinking specifically of the Nightlords Omnibus - their serfs speak a language (Nostroman) that's probably considered dead and forgotten by the 41st millennium.

That's a good point, though I don't see why a spy couldn't learn the language and the basics of the culture before going on the mission. If the government felt that the venture was important enough, I'm sure that there are some documents deep in the Imperial archives that could be of use, even if they are forgotten by most people and highly classified.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:
There was an old short story about a loyalist inside a renegade group.

When he got found out, his arms and legs were removed with a chain axe (in "ritual combat") and the rest of him was interred into a dreadnought sarcophagus.

Loyalist dreads have the sarcophagi as suspension units when they are not needed. They sleep.
Renegades do not have the escape of sleep. They are ALWAYS awake. Trapped in a box they cannot escape. This is why they are seen as the "nutso" ones.

Was it a dreadnought or a helbrute? From what I've know, helbrutes are the ones that particularly go extremely insane.

Hellbrute? Retconned crap. When that story was written CSM had DREADNOUGHTS. House rule, anyone using that word at my place gets punched. Same for Astra whatever, or whatever they're calling the Eldar.

**BrianDavion**

Brotherjulian wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
ScarletRose wrote:
ArcaneHorror wrote:
If one did want to successfully a legion or warband, a SM would probably not be the best choice. Instead, having a spy disguise themselves as a cultist or other low-level follower might work better, as they could observe the CSM without having to directly engage with them and try to be one of them. Also, as a baseline human physically cannot do many things that SM can, they would not be expected to take part in some of the most extreme forms of Chaos worship, nor would they be expected to perform superhuman feats in battle. They thus might largely be ignored, allowing the spy to observe from a safe distance and be at far less risk of succumbing to Chaos or being discovered.

That would definitely be the way to go, but I think it would still be extremely risky. Cultists and serfs are treated as disposable by a lot of the chaos legions, in addition where they are portrayed with any detail they seem to have their own cultures that would be hard to blend in with.

I'm thinking specifically of the Nightlords Omnibus - their serfs speak a language (Nostroman) that's probably considered dead and forgotten by the 41st millennium.

That's a good point, though I don't see why a spy couldn't learn the language and the basics of the culture before going on the mission. If the government felt that the venture was important enough, I'm sure that there are some documents deep in the Imperial archives that could be of use, even if they are forgotten by most people and highly classified.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:
There was an old short story about a loyalist inside a renegade group.

When he got found out, his arms and legs were removed with a chain axe (in "ritual combat") and the rest of him was interred into a dreadnought sarcophagus.

Loyalist dreads have the sarcophagi as suspension units when they are not needed. They sleep.
Renegades do not have the escape of sleep. They are ALWAYS awake. Trapped in a box they cannot escape. This is why they are seen as the "nutso" ones.

Was it a dreadnought or a helbrute? From what I've know, helbrutes are the ones that particularly go extremely insane.

Hellbrute? Retconned crap. When that story was written CSM had DREADNOUGHTS. House rule, anyone using that word at my place gets punched. Same for Astra whatever, or whatever they're calling the Eldar.

punching people in the face for using words? man you must be a joy to hangout with

Hellbrute I figure is just a nickname given to chaos warped dreads, and the terms can be used interchangably.

I mean, imagine you're some guardsman out and about fighting a chaos incursion, you know little if anything about chaos, maybe you know what a space marine dreadnought it from the stories you've been told but along comes a chaos dread, warped and mutated almost beyond recokongization, your going to, logically, be all "WTF IS THAT?!"

**Nightlord1987**

Chaos dreadnoughts had a Crazed rule, even before they were called Helbrutes.

My solid metal Chaos Dreadbrute says hi!

**greatbigtree**

* Nostalgia Glasses On *

The old metal Chaos Dread with Power Scourge and Plasma Cannon was the... 4th 40k model Kit I bought. (Technically 5th).

I loved it, managed a half-way decent mostly-black with blue lightning bolts on the main body paint scheme...

And yes, even in 2nd edition the Dread could go crazy, and shoot or charge your own dudes.

**Table**

=Angel= wrote:
Table wrote:
LumenPraebeo wrote:
I say yes. Why not? It adds more sophistication to the lore. But like others said, it might be a lot harder with some of the more intoxicated legions, like the Deathguard or Emperors Children.

Id say impossible.

There could be comedy value in a loyalist spy trying to infiltrate the Thousand Sons:

Wearing a Rubric Marine's armour and constantly having to constantly fight against the spirit of its owner

Trying to glean information through casual conversation with Rubric Marines (all is dust)

All the leaders of the legion are psychic and know exactly what he is, chuckling about it psychically with one another

Leaders constantly announce false plans loudly then psychically communicate the real plans

Loyalist response forces are repeatedly sent into deathworld jungles, methane swamps and warp rifts but the Thousand sons never show up.

I love this post.