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Doesn't it give you the slightest pause for thought that your supposed "rules AS WRITTEN" answer relies entirely on words that aren't actually written anywhere and that you have in fact nakedly asserted i) exist; and ii) are relevant?
Orbei wrote: The rules do not say "a citadel miniature". They say "your citadel miniatures collection".
It does not matter that They say "your citadel miniatures collection" because "a citadel miniature" is a part of "your citadel miniatures collection".
And you have a Citadel miniature, one that you modified. You have codexes that show kitbashed models and actually discuss kitbashing. It doesn't stop being a citadel miniature if you happen to glue parts from GW on it. Insisting that you can't kitbash a model by the rules is being ridiculous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 16:33:01
Excommunicatus wrote: Doesn't it give you the slightest pause for thought that your supposed "rules AS WRITTEN" answer relies entirely on words that aren't actually written anywhere and that you have in fact nakedly asserted i) exist; and ii) are relevant?
Of course not. How else are folks like this going to demonstrate their superiority to mere mortals who would dare to involve themselves in their chosen hobby in a way any different than they dictate?
Orbei wrote: The rules do not say "a citadel miniature". They say "your citadel miniatures collection".
It does not matter that They say "your citadel miniatures collection" because "a citadel miniature" is a part of "your citadel miniatures collection".
And you have a Citadel miniature, one that you modified.
a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
You have codexes that show kitbashed models and actually discuss kitbashing.
Irrelevant by RAW standards. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
It doesn't stop being a citadel miniature if you happen to glue parts from GW on it.
It does. see above about "it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes."
Insisting that you can't kitbash a model by the rules is being ridiculous.
I never said you could not. RAW said that. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
I dunno. This kinda feels like a LEGO argument. Ie: kid buys a LEGO Firetruck model box and decides to make a dragon instead. Is it still a LEGO model? Or, by veering off of the directions, does it no longer count as LEGO?
DeathReaper wrote: a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
That is a ridiculous stance. By your wording If I reposition an arm on a citadel model then it is no longer then it is no longer a citadel model because they don't manufacture that particular pose. That's like saying if you remove a tail from a dog it is no longer a dog.
No offense intended to BaconCatBug but you (DeathReaper) are going to be considered just as intractable as he is. The difference that I see is that at least he recognizes his own fallicies.
Orbei wrote: The rules do not say "a citadel miniature". They say "your citadel miniatures collection".
It does not matter that They say "your citadel miniatures collection" because "a citadel miniature" is a part of "your citadel miniatures collection".
And you have a Citadel miniature, one that you modified.
a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
You have codexes that show kitbashed models and actually discuss kitbashing.
Irrelevant by RAW standards. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
It doesn't stop being a citadel miniature if you happen to glue parts from GW on it.
It does. see above about "it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes."
Insisting that you can't kitbash a model by the rules is being ridiculous.
I never said you could not. RAW said that. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
You're literally arguing that, somehow, modifying a model manufactured by GW causes a rift in space and time that prevents that model from being created sometime in the past
That's the level of lunacy your position rests on.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 17:58:35
a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
Give me the page number or errata document that says this.
It does. see above about "it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes."
Prove it. Give me a page number or errata that says this. Otherwise your pulling stuff from your bum and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Orbei wrote: The rules do not say "a citadel miniature". They say "your citadel miniatures collection".
It does not matter that They say "your citadel miniatures collection" because "a citadel miniature" is a part of "your citadel miniatures collection".
Conversions could be part of that collection. RAW say nothing at all about conversions.
No, conversions can not be part of that collection. as there is no rule allowing it. RAW being silent does not mean it is allowed.
Conversions are no longer "citadel miniatures" they are not produced by Citadel at all. The parts are, but 3 parts of one kit, 2 of another and 1 of a third etc... is no longer a citadel miniature. In context, citadel miniatures means the whole models that they sell.
Just as with WYSIWYG, when using a conversion, kitbash, or otherwise using one thing to represent another, like a special character, you need to check with your opponent or TO.
This is of course correct.
Any time you have something non-standard you should check with your opponent or TO first.
Please stop using quotations when referring to a citadel miniature. It is very misleading because that is not, in fact, a quote from the rules. The text you are quoting from states "your citadel miniatures collection" which is a very different thing. Your stance of that meaning a specific, unmodified miniature is not anywhere in the rules. Its your interpretation of the rules.
Its odd... you are interpreting the rules to mean something they don't specifically say, but then saying you disagree with your own interpretation and that kitbashes/conversions are fine with you. The rules do not state that you can't do it in the first place; you're inferring something which is just not there.
DeathReaper wrote: Conversions are no longer "citadel miniatures" they are not produced by Citadel at all. The parts are, but 3 parts of one kit, 2 of another and 1 of a third etc... is no longer a citadel miniature. In context, citadel miniatures means the whole models that they sell.
This is not true in the slightest. In the context of general rule of thumb for IP law goes, if your product (in question of infringing on IP) has less than 10% deviation from the comparable original, it is infringing upon IP of the original product.
So in that sense, and within your strictest sense of "it does not tell me I can do it" perspective, because the rules of 40k does not tell me you can ignore the law of the land (i.e. IP laws) just because you are in a fictional world with fictional rules, as long as you do not convert more than 10% of the original "citadel miniature", then it is still constituted as a "citadel minature" and not a "comparable not-so-citadel-miniature" as so you'd claim.
Orbei wrote: The rules do not say "a citadel miniature". They say "your citadel miniatures collection".
It does not matter that They say "your citadel miniatures collection" because "a citadel miniature" is a part of "your citadel miniatures collection".
And you have a Citadel miniature, one that you modified.
a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
That's completely nuts. It started as a standard Citadel model, some other parts from Citadel are used and it no longer is a Citadel model? Nonsense. It might not be the Citadel model that you started with but it is A Citadel model that you can use. Is everyting I used making it Citadel model parts? Yes? Then it's a Citadel model.
You have codexes that show kitbashed models and actually discuss kitbashing.
Irrelevant by RAW standards. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
Not irrelevant at all, even from RAW standards if you have your frelling Codex telling you how to kitbash a model so that you have a legal conversion to use in your games.
It doesn't stop being a citadel miniature if you happen to glue parts from GW on it.
It does. see above about "it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes."
Insisting that you can't kitbash a model by the rules is being ridiculous.
I never said you could not. RAW said that. But as I have said before i don't think you will run into many people that will care about conversions or kitbashed models.
No, your interpretation of RAW says that, not RAW itself. And, show me in the rules where it says "It is no longer a miniature that a (sic) Citadel makes".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 18:45:57
doctortom wrote: Not irrelevant at all, even from RAW standards if you have your frelling Codex telling you how to kitbash a model so that you have a legal conversion to use in your games.
Fluff about kitbashing is not rules. Fluff is not rules.
Orbei wrote: Please stop using quotations when referring to a citadel miniature. It is very misleading because that is not, in fact, a quote from the rules. The text you are quoting from states "your citadel miniatures collection" which is a very different thing. Your stance of that meaning a specific, unmodified miniature is not anywhere in the rules. Its your interpretation of the rules.
Its odd... you are interpreting the rules to mean something they don't specifically say, but then saying you disagree with your own interpretation and that kitbashes/conversions are fine with you. The rules do not state that you can't do it in the first place; you're inferring something which is just not there.
I use the quotations when referring to a "citadel miniature" because they are using quotations when referring to "citadel miniatures" and a single model is no longer "miniatures" it is "miniature"
I never disagreed with my own interpretation. I was talking about RAW, then I said that kitbashes/conversions are probably fine with most people. (It it not RAW, but in my experience people do not adhere to that part of RAW).
P.S. you said "The rules do not state that you can't do it in the first place"
The rules don't say I can't do 10 jumping jacks to auto-hit with all my shooting, but that doesn't mean it is allowed.
The rules system is permissive, so you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do, and nothing else.
a modified miniature is no longer a Citadel miniature, as Citadel does not make anything like what you have modified. a Citadel miniature, in context, means a miniature that a Citadel makes. if you modify a miniature it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes.
Give me the page number or errata document that says this.
It does. see above about "it is no longer a miniature that a Citadel makes."
Prove it. Give me a page number or errata that says this. Otherwise your pulling stuff from your bum and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
It is on the same page that says: The common English definitions for words are used if they are not defined in the 40K rules. Dice are six sided. Dice are numbered 1-6 (One number per side). You can use your fingers or hands to move your models around. You should use an accurate measuring device, in inches. Etc...
It does not have to have a rules allowance for you to do those things. There are a few assumptions that the 40k rules use.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/29 19:15:32
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
doctortom wrote: Not irrelevant at all, even from RAW standards if you have your frelling Codex telling you how to kitbash a model so that you have a legal conversion to use in your games.
Fluff about kitbashing is not rules. Fluff is not rules.
And your definition of "citadel miniature" is not rules. Clearly, the RAW means you can't use a third party models.
I was under the impression that any material that GW writes in a "rulebook", or the Errata and FAQs they put out, was considered RAW. Pretty sure we had this argument when discussing other "fluff" (such as example text for FAQs) and the determination was "is GW wrote it in, and it isn't obviously lore, then it counts as RAW".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/29 19:15:56
doctortom wrote: Not irrelevant at all, even from RAW standards if you have your frelling Codex telling you how to kitbash a model so that you have a legal conversion to use in your games.
Fluff about kitbashing is not rules. Fluff is not rules.
And your definition of "citadel miniature" is not rules. Clearly, the RAW means you can't use a third party models.
It is not my definition of "citadel miniature" it is the definition GW gives it. "citadel miniature" is a minituare produced by the "Citadel" company (GW basically)
The RAW has no allowance for any third party models.
flandarz wrote: I was under the impression that any material that GW writes in a "rulebook", or the Errata and FAQs they put out, was considered RAW.
Far from it. "The Space Marines are the elite of the Imperium’s armies, and it is said by some that a single member of the Adeptus Astartes upon the battlefield is worth an entire regiment of lesser men." (P.10 Codex Space Marines).This is quoting you now, "any material that GW writes in a 'rulebook', or the Errata..." But that is not rules. that is fluff. Unless now a single space marine should somehow be "worth an entire regiment of lesser men"
Pretty sure we had this argument when discussing other "fluff" (such as example text for FAQs) and the determination was "is GW wrote it in, and it isn't obviously lore, then it counts as RAW".
Example text for FAQs are not fluff. They are an example of the RAW.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
That particular statement you pulled was pretty obviously lore. As I discussed in the second portion of my post, which you quoted later but seemed to think wouldn't apply to the former statement. In any case, there's a marked difference between lore and GW including kitbashing in their rulebooks. Back to my first post: if I use LEGOs to make a model without using the instructions, does that model stop being LEGO? If you kitbash multiple Citadel Minis into one, they're still made of Citidel parts. Therefore, it's still a Citadel Mini, technically.
DeathReaper wrote: I never disagreed with my own interpretation. I was talking about RAW, then I said that kitbashes/conversions are probably fine with most people. (It it not RAW, but in my experience people do not adhere to that part of RAW).
P.S. you said "The rules do not state that you can't do it in the first place"
The rules don't say I can't do 10 jumping jacks to auto-hit with all my shooting, but that doesn't mean it is allowed.
The rules system is permissive, so you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do, and nothing else.
Yes, and the rules say to use your citadel miniatures collection. The rules, however, do not make any mention of conversions so it is left for us to define what can be considered part of said collection.Your interpretation is that this excludes conversions/kitbashes, but that is only an interpretation.
Amusingly, one could argue that RAW you must use "your" collection, and so borrowing other people's models would be breaking the rules. And thus, pointing to RAW in the first place is silly as usual.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/29 19:50:43
DeathReaper wrote: I never disagreed with my own interpretation. I was talking about RAW, then I said that kitbashes/conversions are probably fine with most people. (It it not RAW, but in my experience people do not adhere to that part of RAW).
P.S. you said "The rules do not state that you can't do it in the first place"
The rules don't say I can't do 10 jumping jacks to auto-hit with all my shooting, but that doesn't mean it is allowed.
The rules system is permissive, so you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do, and nothing else.
Yes, and the rules say to use your citadel miniatures collection. The rules, however, do not make any mention of conversions so it is left for us to define what can be considered part of said collection.
Citadel miniatures are not conversions. Technically citadel miniatures means the miniatures owned and sold by citadel (and can be found on the GW website), they say your citadel miniatures because you presumably have bought the model kits from GW or a FLGS that sells citadel miniatures.
Your interpretation is that this excludes conversions/kitbashes, but that is only an interpretation.
It is the correct interpretation for reasons given above.
Amusingly, one could argue that RAW you must use "your" collection, and so borrowing other people's models would be breaking the rules. And thus, pointing to RAW in the first place is silly as usual.
Yes, RAW borrowing citadel miniatures is not allowed.
flandarz wrote: That particular statement you pulled was pretty obviously lore.
"Scarcely has the Drop Pod’s smouldering hull come to rest when its hatches blow open with a bang of hydraulics and the occupants disembark to wreak havoc on wrong-footed enemies..." (P. 86 Space Marine Codex).
Does this mean I have to add hydraulics to my Drop pod's and use them to blow the doors open with a bang? Clearly not, so therefore clearly not everything in a rulebook is Rules.
As I discussed in the second portion of my post, which you quoted later but seemed to think wouldn't apply to the former statement. In any case, there's a marked difference between lore and GW including kitbashing in their rulebooks. Back to my first post: if I use LEGOs to make a model without using the instructions, does that model stop being LEGO? If you kitbash multiple Citadel Minis into one, they're still made of Citidel parts. Therefore, it's still a Citadel Mini, technically.
Kitbashing is not involved with any rules of the actual game though.
LEGO and Citadel Minis are not in any way comparable. LEGO does not make models, they make bricks which you can assemble and re-assemble to make different shapes.
Citadel makes model kits designed to be built and painted and not un-assembled.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
