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I feel like there's a drinking game in here. No. Wait.

Surprise inebriation.

 LordofHats wrote:
I feel like there's a drinking game in here. No. Wait.

Surprise inebriation.

Correction a socialite game with inebriating positive sideffects.



Actually this would make for a good forum game

Make it so and let's keep stuff on topic here.

This isn't moderation, merely a suggestion with a dash of surprise fascism.

 BrookM wrote:
Make it so and let's keep stuff on topic here.

This isn't moderation, merely a suggestion with a dash of surprise fascism.

Suprise visit of the supreme and nice leader is understood and noted.

Back on track:

If you'd bring that to the luck lobby that might actually net consequences.

Right now with a lot of this stuff it's a case of seeing how far things can be pushed before either an official body steps in (already happening in some places, but I've been told that Europe is of no real importance ) or people in general get fed up with things and everything comes crashing down.

As always, vote with your wallet, which especially with surprise mechanics is the way to let a company know it's not the way to go.

I do. I don't buy most EA games, and seeing lootboxes on a game is a mark against the game in terms of my wanting to play it.

But there's a lot of people who honestly cannot help themselves. They are vulnerable to it. My younger nephew is a good example of this, he's really vulnerable to the antics of phone games and lootboxes, constantly wanting that shiny. We're lucky that he's so far been able to be talked down from it when it comes up, rather than seeking to bypass needing our approval.

And those are the people that Blizzard, EA, and the other major and minor devs (including phone games and a lot of MMOs) are preying upon. And let's face it, it's predatorial behavior, and we as a society really should not allow companies to prey upon the vulnerable like this.

And given shareholder culture simply doesn't give a damn who the companies prey upon to get money to the shareholders (Blood money is just as good as any other money to a faceless holding corp that only looks at if the numbers have gone up high enough), we quite simply can't rely on corporate governance to make corporations ethical. Only laws will be able to do that now.

 BrookM wrote:
Right now with a lot of this stuff it's a case of seeing how far things can be pushed before either an official body steps in (already happening in some places, but I've been told that Europe is of no real importance ) or people in general get fed up with things and everything comes crashing down.

As always, vote with your wallet, which especially with surprise mechanics is the way to let a company know it's not the way to go.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work for mass-market internationally distributed products, because there are always enough people who don't care about or aren't aware of the problem to keep things ticking along, and many of them are price-insensitive enough when it comes to their luxuries/hobbies they can easily be made into "whales" to cover any shortfall that might arise from a modest number of customers who are almost certainly not "whales" withholding their custom altogether.

Many brands of phone are built by borderline slaves using raw materials soaked in blood, most people are still perfectly willing to sign up to contracts that give them a new handset every year or two even after they know that, so the idea enough people to make any kind of difference will take a principled stand against a mechanic in a game that is obviously bad and harmful but orders of magnitude less harmful than the horrors behind a lot of the other things they buy regularly just doesn't track.

"The free market" is always going to be an engine of misery even if it's regulated heavily enough to remove the commonly recognised issues like power imbalances between consumers and corporations, because humans are fantastic about compartmentalising, minimising, and dismissing things that make them feel uncomfortable and it's extremely rare that you can mobilise enough people to overcome that innate instinct to protect our sense of ourselves as fundamentally good people without a mass political movement to drive it forward and give it form.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Right now with a lot of this stuff it's a case of seeing how far things can be pushed before either an official body steps in (already happening in some places, but I've been told that Europe is of no real importance ) or people in general get fed up with things and everything comes crashing down.

As always, vote with your wallet, which especially with surprise mechanics is the way to let a company know it's not the way to go.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work for mass-market internationally distributed products, because there are always enough people who don't care about or aren't aware of the problem to keep things ticking along, and many of them are price-insensitive enough when it comes to their luxuries/hobbies they can easily be made into "whales" to cover any shortfall that might arise from a modest number of customers who are almost certainly not "whales" withholding their custom altogether.

Many brands of phone are built by borderline slaves using raw materials soaked in blood, most people are still perfectly willing to sign up to contracts that give them a new handset every year or two even after they know that, so the idea enough people to make any kind of difference will take a principled stand against a mechanic in a game that is obviously bad and harmful but orders of magnitude less harmful than the horrors behind a lot of the other things they buy regularly just doesn't track.

"The free market" is always going to be an engine of misery even if it's regulated heavily enough to remove the commonly recognised issues like power imbalances between consumers and corporations, because humans are fantastic about compartmentalising, minimising, and dismissing things that make them feel uncomfortable and it's extremely rare that you can mobilise enough people to overcome that innate instinct to protect our sense of ourselves as fundamentally good people without a mass political movement to drive it forward and give it form.

Ahhh the old we have murderers who are worse, so we should let the rapists go defence :p

If your really worried about mobiles don't buy apple which given there sales figures is actually happening.

Anyway back to the biggest parasite in the games industry EA are an open sore on the hobby if you look at anything bad in the industry you can normally trace it back to them first and from there it spreads to the other less reputable publisher's. EA are basically the typhoid Mary of gaming and until a government does something about them like with the real Mary there just going to keep spreading misery.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Right now with a lot of this stuff it's a case of seeing how far things can be pushed before either an official body steps in (already happening in some places, but I've been told that Europe is of no real importance ) or people in general get fed up with things and everything comes crashing down.

As always, vote with your wallet, which especially with surprise mechanics is the way to let a company know it's not the way to go.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work for mass-market internationally distributed products, because there are always enough people who don't care about or aren't aware of the problem to keep things ticking along, and many of them are price-insensitive enough when it comes to their luxuries/hobbies they can easily be made into "whales" to cover any shortfall that might arise from a modest number of customers who are almost certainly not "whales" withholding their custom altogether.

Many brands of phone are built by borderline slaves using raw materials soaked in blood, most people are still perfectly willing to sign up to contracts that give them a new handset every year or two even after they know that, so the idea enough people to make any kind of difference will take a principled stand against a mechanic in a game that is obviously bad and harmful but orders of magnitude less harmful than the horrors behind a lot of the other things they buy regularly just doesn't track.

"The free market" is always going to be an engine of misery even if it's regulated heavily enough to remove the commonly recognised issues like power imbalances between consumers and corporations, because humans are fantastic about compartmentalising, minimising, and dismissing things that make them feel uncomfortable and it's extremely rare that you can mobilise enough people to overcome that innate instinct to protect our sense of ourselves as fundamentally good people without a mass political movement to drive it forward and give it form.

Ahhh the old we have murderers who are worse, so we should let the rapists go defence :p

If your really worried about mobiles don't buy apple which given there sales figures is actually happening.

Anyway back to the biggest parasite in the games industry EA are an open sore on the hobby if you look at anything bad in the industry you can normally trace it back to them first and from there it spreads to the other less reputable publisher's. EA are basically the typhoid Mary of gaming and until a government does something about them like with the real Mary there just going to keep spreading misery.

If you read a little closer you'll note I'm not actually "defending" anything, I'm putting forward reasoning as to why boycotting/"voting with your wallet" almost never works, because if it did people would be doing it over those much worse things already, and since they're not, they're unlikely to start doing it over the minor thing.

Individuals should feel free to withhold their money from any product, service, or company if they find they can't support them, but you should never do that in the expectation that it will change anything. I bought a secondhand smartphone three years ago and have no intention of upgrading it for the foreseeable future, but I did that for my own sake, I don't believe it will actually change anythiing, and neither will a handful of people refraining from buying into lootboxes or fee-to-pay or game streaming or whatever the next anti-consumer industry practice is.

The other issue is that the loot-boxes are an optional element in the games, masses of people can keep playing and buying the games without touching them; or they might only touch them once or twice. That once or twice still generates significant profit when your'e dealing with the population sizes that many of these AAA titles have.

 Overread wrote:
The other issue is that the loot-boxes are an optional element in the games, masses of people can keep playing and buying the games without touching them...

This has been proven time and time again to be false. Publishers intentionally stretch out the progress grind in games so that Loot Boxes become the defacto way to move forward, or the introduction of microtransactions utterly ruins the flow of the game. Gamblefront II proved this. As did Shadow of War.

 Overread wrote:
The other issue is that the loot-boxes are an optional element in the games, masses of people can keep playing and buying the games without touching them; or they might only touch them once or twice. That once or twice still generates significant profit when your'e dealing with the population sizes that many of these AAA titles have.

I again will point to the rise of fifa ultimate team and Childgambling in the UK: And it is thought that this has to do with Lootboxes: http://theconversation.com/gambling-loot-boxes-in-video-games-could-be-conditioning-children-107667

And that is just the UK.

And considering how much some people spend on such stuff in f2p games of all variants aswell as now AAA titles i suspect that is now all but assured.

Also you can't go underaged into a propper casino, should a Child then be able too?

Ouch, jims pissed off today

Now, I am 100% against threatening and dogpiling people, there's just no need.

That said, if I were to open the newspaper tomorrow and see a story about that Torulf Jernstrom guy having died slowly as a result of having his danglies immersed in an angry hornet's nest, I would struggle to feel anything other than a faint sense that perhaps we live in a just universe afterall.

Still, it's amazing what they can do with technology these days - who'd have thought we'd live to see the day when they can make passable facsimiles of humans out of a literal sack of gak? We truly do live in the future now.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Now, I am 100% against threatening and dogpiling people, there's just no need.

That said, if I were to open the newspaper tomorrow and see a story about that Torulf Jernstrom guy having died slowly as a result of having his danglies immersed in an angry hornet's nest, I would struggle to feel anything other than a faint sense that perhaps we live in a just universe afterall.

Still, it's amazing what they can do with technology these days - who'd have thought we'd live to see the day when they can make passable facsimiles of humans out of a literal sack of gak? We truly do live in the future now.

Won't you need higher dikes? Wouldnt he be the perfect filling material for one?

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's not cancer, it's surprise exponential cell growth!

It's not an apocalyptic impact of a Asteroid, it's a surprise space nudge.


God.

....

I feel EA now.

Someone in my office this week said "It's not pedophilia, it's early access!"

I both laughed and simultaneously died a little in side hearing that. I could see that EA lady actually saying this, and it makes it ten times worse...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:

Here is the thing. When it comes to the stories he plays in that little video (This is why I really don't like Jim) is because he cherry picks the WORST cases and then tries to hold them up as proof that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

 Togusa wrote:
Someone in my office this week said "It's not pedophilia, it's early access!"

I both laughed and simultaneously died a little in side hearing that. I could see that EA lady actually saying this, and it makes it ten times worse...

It's one of those jokes that's funny because it's so wrong which only makes you feel guilty and then you laugh more.

because he cherry picks the WORST cases and then tries to hold them up as proof that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

Cherry picking? I'm sure you meant to say "Surprise Selections."

I think this is a general habit in this debate that's kind of poison to it. It mixes the message on who companies are really targeting with these mechanisms, and how they're actually built into games to encourage their purchase. It's the equivalent of Adam Sandler level comedy. Poorly thought out, not nearly as clever as it thinks it is and misses the mark more than anything. And it is something Jim does a lot of in his videos (along with completely belaboring the point like another chicken fight gag on an episode of Family Guy).
.

Especially that your marketing to children, its no surprise they would want to defend it, it is shady and possibly illegal. People make alot of money off lootboxes and grinding for other people to get the items they want. Especially in games like Fifa where somethings have monetary value in competitive settings.

Really stupid and EA needs to take a step back for once and self reflect.

From the top of my head, games that use similar mechanics where their items are monetized are :

CSGO
Team Fortress 2
Fortnite
Overwatch
Evolved
Battlefront 2 and Battlefront 1
Most Sports Games (FIFA, Madden, and baseball champs)

They have tons of monetized gambling machines in their platform it makes money so its not surprising they do have those.

It doesn't help that those with gambling addictions are incentivized to pay more because of the systems in place. Along with the monetization efforts creating casinos and addictive scenarios for its users. The entire point of lootboxes and free to play is to get 'whales' to support their platforms and services. These whales are not rich people but people who have mental issues or addictive personalities, very few are actually doing it by conscious choice. This article by the royal society lays it out quite nicely : https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.190049

Most chiefly that monetization efforts have adverse effects on people who play it.

"Loot boxes are items in video games that can be paid for with real-world money but contain randomized contents. Many games that feature loot boxes are played by adolescents. Similarities between loot boxes and gambling have led to concern that they are linked to the development of problem gambling in adolescents. Previous research has shown links between loot boxes and problem gambling in adult populations. However, thus far, there is no empirical evidence of either the size or existence of a link between loot box spending and problem gambling in adolescents. A large-scale survey of 16- to 18-year-olds (n = 1155) found evidence for such a link (η2 = 0.120). The link between loot box spending and problem gambling among these older adolescents was of moderate to large magnitude. It was stronger than relationships previously observed in adults. Qualitative analysis of text data showed that gamers bought loot boxes for a variety of reasons. Several of these motivations were similar to common reasons for engaging in gambling. Overall, these results suggest that loot boxes either cause problem gambling among older adolescents, allow game companies to profit from adolescents with gambling problems for massive monetary rewards, or both of the above. Possible strategies for regulation and restriction are given."

They go onto explain what games they researched :

In [15], Drummond & Sauer undertook a systematic analysis of 22 video games that feature loot boxes to determine the extent to which they fulfilled these characteristics. They found that 10 of the 22 video game loot boxes fulfilled all of the criteria listed above, and many more fulfilled most of them. They found that loot boxes not only shared ‘important structural and psychological similarities with gambling’, but that ‘100% allow for (if not actively encourage) underage players to engage with these systems'. Indeed, Drummond and Sauer concluded that the presence of loot boxes in video games might therefore be forming a ‘ripe breeding ground’ for the development of problem gambling among children.

And these aren't your cheap phone games, but triple A games that are sold to basically everything below a T rating.

In order to prevent these mechanics getting in the hands of kids, either we :

Enforce a ban on all lootbox mechanics
or
Create a rating in the game that prevents lootboxes from being sold below Mature rating.

That all games cannot be sold to minors if they have loot box mechanics or gambling mechanics.

Along with this the ESRB must enforce these rulings on all games and must retroactively rate all games that have lootbox mechanics with a mature rating, and the developers must make their customers aware of or try to implement:

1. How much money they are spending within the game.
2. Parental Controls that turn off lootboxes (parental lock)
3. Must warn the players that they are engaging in buying an item in their game that has a random chance.
4. Displaying the chances of receiving an item or rarity breakdowns for every item in the game (they do that in china).
5. Must offer those items outside of a randomized value on a store.
6. Must offer users a way to refund lootboxes if it was proven a child has used and bought a game.

Finally, companies must be held accountable for selling gambling to kids. Even if it isn't wide spread, lootboxes are a cancer on the games industry, I rather pay 70$ for a triple A game than have a loot box mechanic. There are many people out there who are addicts and use video games as a way to recover from addictions to gambling, sex, etc. These are outlets for creativity. And they shouldn't be places for widespread abuse of players. They are not services but entertainment.

Overall as an enterianment medium the games industry should not be struggling this much to enact on itself a way to prevent the rampant abuse we are seeing. Games are making a lot of money and most of it is well dirty money. From kids, addicts, and deseperate people. And it is despeciable.

the esrb will not be able to do anything so long EA and Actiblizz and consorts are those that finance it the most.

Companies controlling themselves is bad. Same with police work, you get outside groups to controll them successfully.

Thirdly it is Illegal, as stated above it ticks most or all boxes of a one armed bandit. In Switzerland not only is this ilegal gambling without licensce, it's also gambling with minors and tax evasion and belive me, tax evasion in regards to the gambling taxation is a sure fire way to get your buisness closed down here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Here is the thing. When it comes to the stories he plays in that little video (This is why I really don't like Jim) is because he cherry picks the WORST cases and then tries to hold them up as proof that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

Considering the man also made this video which was way better and didn't use cheap emotional manipulation i'd forgive him for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQsc14gDPbk

Not Online!!! wrote:
the esrb will not be able to do anything so long EA and Actiblizz and consorts are those that finance it the most.

Companies controlling themselves is bad. Same with police work, you get outside groups to controll them successfully.

Thirdly it is Illegal, as stated above it ticks most or all boxes of a one armed bandit. In Switzerland not only is this ilegal gambling without licensce, it's also gambling with minors and tax evasion and belive me, tax evasion in regards to the gambling taxation is a sure fire way to get your buisness closed down here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Here is the thing. When it comes to the stories he plays in that little video (This is why I really don't like Jim) is because he cherry picks the WORST cases and then tries to hold them up as proof that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

Considering the man also made this video which was way better and didn't use cheap emotional manipulation i'd forgive him for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQsc14gDPbk

Some countries and many european countries have their own independent rating systems, the us won't be effected as you say because the ESRB is extremely corrupt. But the European systems judge themselves and can do that themselves when it comes to rating the games with lootboxes.

Though i think regulation for moment is the only way for the US to do so, but by the time they do implement the law it will be far too late.

The damage is allready done even over here i feel.

In a way we lost a whole Generation of potentially great games to this practices with artificial inflated grind and terribad mechanics.

If you need proof of EA sucking look no further than all the franchises and companies they grabbed up and destroyed. No more c&c, dead space, the sims and countless others all thanks to EA. Yes i know c&c is possibly coming back but do you really think EA won't screw it up?

Not Online!!! wrote:
The damage is allready done even over here i feel.

In a way we lost a whole Generation of potentially great games to this practices with artificial inflated grind and terribad mechanics.

Look at Fallout 76. The potential for that game, had it been a true single player fallout game was immense. Ripe for story telling and exploring a wasteland just a couple of decades after the war. Unfortunately, even Bethesda saw the dollar signs. :(

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If you need proof of EA sucking look no further than all the franchises and companies they grabbed up and destroyed. No more c&c, dead space, the sims and countless others all thanks to EA. Yes i know c&c is possibly coming back but do you really think EA won't screw it up?

Remember people, EA'S the good guys...
Yes they honestly stated they don't understand the negative assosiaction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The damage is allready done even over here i feel.

In a way we lost a whole Generation of potentially great games to this practices with artificial inflated grind and terribad mechanics.

Look at Fallout 76. The potential for that game, had it been a true single player fallout game was immense. Ripe for story telling and exploring a wasteland just a couple of decades after the war. Unfortunately, even Bethesda saw the dollar signs. :(

Massive disagree.
Bethesda couldn't even Programm itself out of a Wet paper bag. Look at skyrim remasters, heck i find solution to Bugs on 8 + year old forums!

Also bethesda has no idea what Fallout as a franchise should be, also massively lacking the depth of choice and morale ambiguity that Fallout of all games should have.

The idea that they cannot understand why people don't like them (as opposed to ActiBlizzard, who just don't care that you hate them) is staggering.

But they've helped publish (monetize) up to six indie games! That makes them good guys... Right?

For whatever reason, that was the context of the recent interview where whichever VP was confused about EA being baddies. Because EA Originals exists. Never mind that the public doesn't know the terms of the deals, half the games haven't been released yet, and even if it is benevolent rather than just business, it doesn't magical make all the shady business practices and crisp games magically go away.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If you need proof of EA sucking look no further than all the franchises and companies they grabbed up and destroyed. No more c&c, dead space, the sims and countless others all thanks to EA. Yes i know c&c is possibly coming back but do you really think EA won't screw it up?

In fairness many of those companies were likely going to go belly-up anyway. Computer games are a terrible market for stability and even companies which have produced solid titles over the years have closed doors or wound up downsizing to the point where they can't produce games of the same calibre as they once did. EA has always had their sports to produce a lump sum every year and its a market they dominate in because of their unique contracts. So they've had a stable rock of annual money which allowed them to ride out the rough times and to buy up skills and teams from other companies as they got into trouble.

The problem is EA does this more to secure assets, but then often takes niche market titles and tries to make them more casual for the general market. I think they also tend to have a stronger eye toward the finances which means games are profitable, but perhaps not as polished as the might otherwise be. All this can really annoy the original market and they can easily kill off titles or series because there's simply no big profit projection for it. Lets not forget they did make several CnC titles under their belt (including Generals); I think CnC died because they went chasing the "MMO-RTS" formula like a few other companies did around the same time; and it seems that there was a resounding failure in the development of those games because none of them made it out. In fact the whole concept was basically dropped though Petroglyph are sort of mucking around with it in Forged Battalion but it seems to have failed. I get the feeling they simply ran out of cash and skill after Grey Goo didn't turn into Starcraft 2 levels of competitive gaming and have been floundering since then - though they are apparently now hired in by EA to work on the CnC remasters (which likely suggests that RTS developers are a rarity right now outside of Blizzard).

Contrast EA'S handling of their RTS's with pedigree with Microsoft's excellent updates to Age of Empiresv(both 1 and 2).