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2019/07/28 11:24:36
Subject: What is the standard points size for an army in 8th edition?
When I talk about fully fleshed out, I'm talking about flexibility, combo units, self sufficient units, Units that can move fast or units that don't have to move fast, because they get to take a short cut to the other side of the field. Units that can perform two or more tasks, maybe one task isn't as good as the other unit, but they can pick up some slack if something went wrong. Units like sniper scouts, and infiltrator Omni Scramblers that will throw a monkey wrench in opposition plans. The biggest threat to my sniper scouts that isn't already engaged with a bigger threat of their own (i.e. your Redemptor and Repulsor vs my Redemptor and Repulsor) is your librarian. 9 sniper shots a turn, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 generates a moral wound. After two turns - if nobody is lucky - your libby has 2 failed save wounds and 2 mortal wounds, and is dead or ready to die next turn. if you're lucky you've Smite'd them a couple times. If I'm lucky they've already scored their objective victory point(s) and still outnumber your Intercessors 8 to 5 - if they're even there - because you're probably more interested in dislodging the infiltrators with their own pocket medic.
with that definition you realise have eliminated all themed armies?
You may have missed the original point being made. The original point was that at lower points level the Elite Cost/Low Model Count armies couldn't create the "fully fleshed out" armies. Not that people MUST take them, but they should have the potential to take them.
I love theme armies. I have a Death/Raven Wing project on my bench. They're an even stronger example of the issues involved - Deathwing and Ravenwing do not have any Troops options and can't Chart Shift with Belial/Sammael, can't take the Battalion detachment that way, don't generate CP at the same rate as more horde armies who can fill out detachments/Formations much easier, and get screwed on Objective Securing. I absolutely could have made what I would have considered a fleshed out Combi-Wing army in earlier editions - that's where the project came from in the first place- between Teleport Homer shenanigans, rending assault cannons, Thunderhammers, Cyclones, etc.
Gotcha, yeah with that i can agree.
Granted i play CSM so "troop tax" is relatively (so long you are willing to take reaaaaally subpar cheap units) easy.
In a way they should've probably done more special detachments or special detachments that grant more CP for certain armies. That way theme armies would not really suck so hard.
But alas..
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/07/28 12:58:11
Subject: What is the standard points size for an army in 8th edition?
Gotcha, yeah with that i can agree.
Granted i play CSM so "troop tax" is relatively (so long you are willing to take reaaaaally subpar cheap units) easy.
In a way they should've probably done more special detachments or special detachments that grant more CP for certain armies. That way theme armies would not really suck so hard.
But alas..
They shouldn't have tied CP to Detachments at all. It should have been tied to points/power level. You should have gotten enough for a 6 turn game at about 500, and marginally more for the specialist detachments and the like as you got bigger topping off at about 2,500 to 3,000.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2019/07/28 14:34:49
Subject: What is the standard points size for an army in 8th edition?
It has something from the most of the unit types (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, etc.) and can participate in every phase of the game. It certainly isn't the most competitive way for a Primaris army to spend those points, but it would be pretty easy to build based off one or two boxed sets/easy-to-build models for a player not looking to break the bank. Besides, I think some like that list would do okay against a Chaos Space Marine force for a friendly game as described.
I also agree with Stormonu, that is would be easy to trim down to 1,000 points. Honestly, I think the repulsor isn't all that needed. It is a very nice firepower platform and meh transport for a lower point game that might actually stick around. I only included it in case someone really wants to have a vehicle in their army and had 1,250 points to work with. At a 1,000 points, I would probably drop the Repulsor and the Dreadnought and take something else with the 200 and some change points in a 1000 point list.
You have one transport (and it's the first thing you say you'd get rid of), zero infiltrate, and your deep strike is limited to a suicide squad of jump packer's, so your mobility is severely lacking. Your Plan B overlaps are few and far between. Taking a Gravis Captain while planning to dump the Repulsor as "fat" and not taking any Close Combat capable support squads says you have no plans/desire to use the power fist or power sword offensively and he's little more than a walking reroll aura. I'm not sure what your Librarian is for. What powers did you take? At least 1/3 of them are CCW oriented so not part of your complete list.
My 1750 List is
Primaris Calgar
Tiggy
a Primaris LT with Power Sword
3 Aggressors
1 Primaris Apothecary
Redemptor with Plasma and Onlsaught
5 Devs, 4 Missile Launchers or PC's I'm still playing with it - 1 Cherub
1 Repulsor with Onslaught and either/or TLHB or TLLC Still playing with this too.
2 Infiltrating units- one prevents Deep Striking, one snipes, Both could combat squad, depending on objective locations.
1 Intercessor could Combat Squad with two GL's, or backfield camp one objective depending on objective locations.
I have up to 6 units with Objective Secured with 5 Secured Votes or 3 with 10. You have three with 5, that will be lucky to make it across the table if they need to.
Depending on deployment, and objective locations I can be on six of them before turn one.
The Aggressors, Calgar, LT, and Apothecary all fit in the Repulsor so they're not as footsloggingly slow as molasses.
The Devastators with Missile Launchers can perform as Anti-Tank with backup from the redemptor and the Repulsor, or double down on the anti-infantry if 20 bolter troops isn't going to be enough vs a horde.
The Repulsor becomes a pretty juicy target, but that's what terrain and the Redemptor are for. If my opponent overcommits to the Repulsor, the Redemptor gets some easier movement. If the balance on both, I should still be able to deliver the cargo without too much fuss, assuming there's enough terrain. When they get out of the Repulsor I'd prefer to shoot stuff, but the power fists with to hit and to wound rerolls make a nice plan B for the Devastators and PapaSmurt makes a Plan C.
The Apothecary makes for nice psychological warfare making you worry about PapaSmurf and the Aggressors regaining wounds - especially after I've annoyed you with the Helix Adept on the Infiltrators in cover on your side of the board saving at a 2+, but also has a nice Plan B potential with the Reductor Pistol - S4 -3 D2 = effectively a more damaging Power Sword in a very short range pistol.
When I talk about fully fleshed out, I'm talking about flexibility, combo units, self sufficient units, Units that can move fast or units that don't have to move fast, because they get to take a short cut to the other side of the field. Units that can perform two or more tasks, maybe one task isn't as good as the other unit, but they can pick up some slack if something went wrong. Units like sniper scouts, and infiltrator Omni Scramblers that will throw a monkey wrench in opposition plans. The biggest threat to my sniper scouts that isn't already engaged with a bigger threat of their own (i.e. your Redemptor and Repulsor vs my Redemptor and Repulsor) is your librarian. 9 sniper shots a turn, 6 hit, 3 wound, 1 generates a moral wound. After two turns - if nobody is lucky - your libby has 2 failed save wounds and 2 mortal wounds, and is dead or ready to die next turn. if you're lucky you've Smite'd them a couple times. If I'm lucky they've already scored their objective victory point(s) and still outnumber your Intercessors 8 to 5 - if they're even there - because you're probably more interested in dislodging the infiltrators with their own pocket medic.
Now I realize I'm comparing a 1750 point list to a 1250 point list. But that was pretty much my point. The secondary, and tertiary options - the things you use when you react to where your plan went wrong - at 1250 are next to non-existant, the primary options are hard enough to fill. You have all but admitted you had to concede at least half the board to your opponent. At 1750 I had more units that could SET UP on your side of the board than you were planning to MOVE to mine at 1250. How are you planning on winning missions like "Blitz" where you have to cross the LONG side of the table?
My list doesn't have infiltrate or a whole lot of redundancy and is entirely foot slogging. A 1000-1250 points means you definitely don't get everything you want, but I am okay with that. Chances are your opponent has the same issues because of that limit. Things can and will go wrong and you won't have the manpower to easily fix it. I am okay with that too. You deal with the problem on the table when it happens with what you got instead of before the game with your list. You can say that is a failure to plan, but I think 40k could use more tough choices during the game.
Honestly, I am not all that worried about deep striking being used against me in smaller point games. I have accepted that is one thing my list can't easily protect against through sheer manpower. At the same time, I don't see other small point lists putting all that much into deep striking either without being a skew list which I think it just playing roulette hoping that your skew is the hard counter. In friendly games, I just don't see that being a thing much since they are aren't very fun being so binary. If I have an opponent that put a lot into deep striking, I guess I will deal with it the old fashion way before omni-scramblers.
Again, you are correct that my list is slow. I actually like and take Auto Bolt Rifles because I like my troops on the move and marines have a good enough BS to make use of Assault weapons. You give up some firepower to do that, but I personally think the speed is worth it if you don't want/can't fit a full transport.
You are also correct that melee is weak in my list. Primaris don't have a whole of melee options so I wasn't going to fight it. Instead, I plan on just letting the Primaris natural Assault Marine melee talent deal with melee threats. Which might not sound like much, but I have a Kill Team Comm's specialist Intercessor that has killed genestealers and termagants in melee with his basic melee ability.
I didn't say on powers for the librarian because I was creating a general list that allows play in all of the phases. I don't even have a non-Phobos Librarian. However, I wanted that list to be built more on the box sets pre-Shadowspear rather than Shadowspear itself since it more likely that new marine players would have those units and the easy-to-build models. The list would built under those constraints which made it a lot more difficult for me to work with. A better choice over the librarian would probably be a Primaris Lt since they are in the Dark Imperium and probably a better fit for a heavy infantry force. That said, I appreciate your inclusion of Infiltrators in your list. I can't quite get them into mine since they come at a high point premium for things I find nice but not worth it over intercessors even in a mostly Phobos list.
Honestly, I think the repulsor is pretty good in smaller point games since it has all those guns and your opponent probably won't have the firepower to deal with it quickly. I do have my doubts that is worthwhile as a transport since it is a good chunk of points that I personally think could better used as deep striking Reivers or Browning Automatic Rifle Intercessors which offer more table control, flexibility and possible more resilience.
As for Blitz like missions, it is 18" for the 1 point zone if the attacker gets there. I would say forget about the 2 point zone as the attacker, and focus on keeping your units alive to deny your opponent points. As the defender, keep lanes of fire open with your longer than most infantry range where possible and try to stay out of melee if that robs the unit of firepower. I see an opponent with a lot of deep strikers is really going to be an issue. If you really think the game is over before it starts because of the mission, just tell your opponent that and ask to pick another mission instead better suited to give a good game. I can't see an actual friendly opponent saying no to that unless they don't agree the game is so black and white on the victor. I think Dakka Dakka focuses too much on tournament style play and not enough on friendly play (which friendly games always read to me here as just non-tournament, tournament style games). I think it is perfectly fine to alter the terrain and even the mission perimeters to balance out lists and even player skill. I personally think there too many players that think the best way to learn 40k is to start with Calculus III for 30 games instead of starting with basic algebra and working up to Calculus III after 20-30 games.
You are correct with a lot of what you are saying, but I don't mind the added challenges small point games create for elite factions. It isn't like my opponent doesn't have the same issue in trying to fit everything they want within the same amount of points to some degree. I also like more infantry based games which smaller points tend to create but doesn't have to. I also don't want to give the impression that I think all games should be 1000-1250. I actually think that 1500-1750 is the sweet spot in that it allows the extra bit that often feels like a more combined arms game without being overly bloated feeling more like a WWI game this everything shoulder to shoulder. I am a fan of playing at various points since It seems that some options fall in and out of favor depending on that aspect alone.
2019/07/29 05:04:44
Subject: What is the standard points size for an army in 8th edition?
If you really think the game is over before it starts because of the mission, just tell your opponent that and ask to pick another mission instead better suited to give a good game.
Wasn't the point I was making that at 1250 you can't make a fully fleshed out army using low model count elite armies? Wouldn't telling your opponent you can't compete on one of the basic missions in the basic big rule book be admitting you couldn't make a fully fleshed out army?
As for Blitz like missions, it is 18" for the 1 point zone if the attacker gets there. I would say forget about the 2 point zone as the attacker, and focus on keeping your units alive to deny your opponent points.
And the Defender gets 1 point for destroying the unit. Meaning once you get your 1 point I get a point for destroying it. IF you get your point. It's not going to be that hard to focus fire 1 5 man intercessor unit down before it can travel 18" My 500 point guard list can do it with three pie plates (Now 2D6 Reroll one, pick the best hits) of Basilisk Doom. Every time I take out one of your 5 man intercessor squads before they even get to the 1 point line, you have to get one past the two point line just to get back to even. And you only score once - at the end of the battle. I score every time I wipe out one of your 5 man Intercessor squads. You're probably going to get 2 points for the Captain and the Librarian. Between targeting character rules, and having easier ways to score, I'm going to probably ignore them. I'm going to pound your Redemptor down to the bottom wound category (Unless I'm unlucky) and make it limp 4" everywhere hitting on 5's- I'm curious if I still get the VP if you Overcharge Suicide the thing to get it back full health - I'd prefer to get the VP for the Dread on my last turn, rather than give it back to you full health multiple times. You ditched the Repulsor to get under 1,000 points, so I don't have to worry about that. I'll get to add a few Leman Russ'es to get up to 1,000 making movement, and Destroying your 5 man intercessors, while hamstringing your Redemptor even easier. I don't have any Deep Strike or Infiltrate either, but I have some high mobility high durability tanks to get me 2 points a pop, the Basilisks will pound the Hellblasters, the tanks will destroy the Redemptor Dread - since you wouldn't be getting it back as defender- so you're going to have to kill my guard infantry squads 6 times more than I get them in the 1 point zone. Assuming I don't run any shenanigans with the Command Characters you won't be able to shoot at for another 4 points
Guard get 5CP (Not counting the 3 for being battle forged in the first place as everyone gets that for 0 points) for 180 points of 2HQ's, and 30 Guardsmen. A couple Basilisks, and some Masters of Ordnance or Sentinels etc gets me to 500- use 1 CP for the Vigilus Artillery Stratagem. Add another Detach with a Tank Commander in a Russ, and 3 Leman Russes (or 2 and more Sentinels) all with Plasma Sponsons, Hull LC's, and Battle Cannons, Track Guards, and Augurs, (the Extra Detachment probably pays for the Vigilus Tank Detachment Stratagem) and I'm sitting pretty with a fairly well flushed out list.
The Cheapest <TITANIC> (needed for their CP Generation special rule) Knight is the Gallant. The cheapest one that isn't handicapped by two CCW arms is the Errant. And you can't fit 3 Errants in 1000 points. The higher cost lower model armies have it much tougher creating fully fleshed out (and/or fluffy) armies than the horde armies, to the point that they frequently can't do so under a certain threshold - say about a 1,500 points.
