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SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I hear the trukkz are now more expensive than rhinos again? Can someone confirm that?

Close, its now 65pts without weapons, so 67 or 69 with 1 or 2 stormbolters. The Trukk is currently useless, I mean priced at 64pts with a big shoota.

So 5pts nets you +1 toughness and +1 save as well as +2 ballistic skill and 4 shots or 8 at 12inch range.

But trukks can ignore all high damage weapons!!!!!11!

Its on a 6 though. That ability is nice, but it should be on a 4+. 6+ is just too unreliable.

Just popping in to mention that Mek Gunz ONLY work when spammed (Smashas and Traktors particularly). You need at least 6 to have them put in ANY sort of work for you. Which, considering the price, means that you could be dropping like 300 bucks just to make them worth fielding.

 flandarz wrote:
Just popping in to mention that Mek Gunz ONLY work when spammed (Smashas and Traktors particularly). You need at least 6 to have them put in ANY sort of work for you. Which, considering the price, means that you could be dropping like 300 bucks just to make them worth fielding.

Which is why i refuse to use them. I do not condone their pricing. Using them, even kit bashed versions, would just be hypocritical for me.

Yeah, imagine the rhino being only a few points more. That's stupid. And now GW will give us a points drop but try to charge us for it. I know there are other methods to get the new points for free but it still stands that if someone tries to scam you and fails, they still tried to scam you.

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I hear the trukkz are now more expensive than rhinos again? Can someone confirm that?

Close, its now 65pts without weapons, so 67 or 69 with 1 or 2 stormbolters. The Trukk is currently useless, I mean priced at 64pts with a big shoota.

So 5pts nets you +1 toughness and +1 save as well as +2 ballistic skill and 4 shots or 8 at 12inch range.

You're just doing the big shoota argument of marine players backwards. The price of a rhino has no impact on how trukks play.

Just like trukks, rhinos see no use outside of some very specific applications, thus a point drop is justified.
It also went down from 70 to 65, hardly game breaking, and probably still useless.

Trukks need to go down to 50pts and I seriously doubt that will ever happen. WS should be 4+ (as the buggies). Also, the weapon profiles need to change (big shoota) and the range of available guns increased (rokkits, kmBlastas).

Anyhow, as for the OT. Orks can be played in seevral ways, obviously will depend much on your meta.

Tellyporting stuff, dajumping it. Rush forward the rest can work. Evil suns.

Bad moons + freebootas heavy shooting can work.

MSU deathskulls works.

Goffs, blood axes and snakebites are harder to play.

Please check the tactics thread about orks.

35 points seems more like it. That's how much trukks were in 4th ed, iirc.
The big shoota could probably use another shot or 2. Compared to the shoota, which is free, the big shoota profiles +18" and 1 more shot for 5 points. I like big shootas, but they aren't the most points efficient weapon, imo.

Even at 35 points, there are next to no units which you want to put into them and they aren't fast enough to not just walk instead.

If trukk boyz were good and trukks were faster than battlewagons (remember how trukks were fast vehicles and battlewagons were tanks?), I think trukks would start popping up again, even with just a minor reduction in points.
Ideas to archive this would be giving boyz bonus attacks when disembarking from a trukk, allowing to disembark and charge after moving oder making trukks move 14".

Forcing the enemy to actually shoot at trukks filled with boyz in order to stop them would also go a long way towards making other fast stuff like buggies and warbikers more viable.

I’m guessing that GW counts the Open Topped and Ramshackle rules as the premium that makes Trukks more expensive than Rhinos.

Like, imagine that Marines could shoot out of Rhinos? Great mobile bunkers for Devastators, right?

I would love to be able to run Trukk boyz with my Evil Sunz, but the problem is not only the cost of the Trukk, it’s the poor damage output of 12 boyz. The Trukk would have to be super cheap to offset that. I’ve tried putting Tankbustas or Nobz in Trukks instead, but if you don’t get first turn they will never survive long enough to even get a chance to move...

Yeah, it's a fundamental problem, not a pts problem.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I hear the trukkz are now more expensive than rhinos again? Can someone confirm that?

Close, its now 65pts without weapons, so 67 or 69 with 1 or 2 stormbolters. The Trukk is currently useless, I mean priced at 64pts with a big shoota.

So 5pts nets you +1 toughness and +1 save as well as +2 ballistic skill and 4 shots or 8 at 12inch range.

You're just doing the big shoota argument of marine players backwards. The price of a rhino has no impact on how trukks play.

Just like trukks, rhinos see no use outside of some very specific applications, thus a point drop is justified.
It also went down from 70 to 65, hardly game breaking, and probably still useless.

This is where you and I disagree. I feel that GW uses Speese Mehreens as the yard stick to measure all units/armies by and therefore it makes sense to compare similar units. GW doesn't put much stock in how useful a specific unit/weapon is for armies. Usually they have to wait for 6+ months of blatantly obvious problems before they try to adjust it, or in the case of 7th edition (The edition that shall not be named) they just said "Meh, good enough" and let the broken combos stick around indefinitely.

Lolman your points are valid and shared.

Our codex suffers from poor internal balance and it pushes many of our more fun/iconic units out of any type of competitive list.

A few CA predictions;
-Smasha guns will get a slight nerf but will remain competitive along with other Mek Guns.
-One or two of the buggies (those that sold least) will be given decent price drops, the rest will remain as they are.
- Bikes will be unchanged.
- Burna boys will be unchanged.
- Our primary competitive build will remain as is.

Unfortunately I doubt CA will do much in the way of fixes. Many believe Orks to be perfectly fine as they are, including quite a few Ork players themselves.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lolman your points are valid and shared.

Our codex suffers from poor internal balance and it pushes many of our more fun/iconic units out of any type of competitive list.

A few CA predictions;
-Smasha guns will get a slight nerf but will remain competitive along with other Mek Guns.
-One or two of the buggies (those that sold least) will be given decent price drops, the rest will remain as they are.
- Bikes will be unchanged.
- Burna boys will be unchanged.
- Our primary competitive build will remain as is.

Unfortunately I doubt CA will do much in the way of fixes. Many believe Orks to be perfectly fine as they are, including quite a few Ork players themselves.

You could run them through the no stratagem used test.
Basically you can see if a codex is somewhat balanced if you don't require the use of certain crutch stratagems and can field a non extreme skew list whilest doing so.

And orkz are certainly not a candidate to survive that test, same with baseline csm , too much depending on tellyporta, or VotLW / cacophony.

But he, the dexes are fine and internal balance is anyways worthless

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lolman your points are valid and shared.

Our codex suffers from poor internal balance and it pushes many of our more fun/iconic units out of any type of competitive list.

A few CA predictions;
-Smasha guns will get a slight nerf but will remain competitive along with other Mek Guns.
-One or two of the buggies (those that sold least) will be given decent price drops, the rest will remain as they are.
- Bikes will be unchanged.
- Burna boys will be unchanged.
- Our primary competitive build will remain as is.

Unfortunately I doubt CA will do much in the way of fixes. Many believe Orks to be perfectly fine as they are, including quite a few Ork players themselves.

Not the needed nerf of boyz to 8ps/model?
*duck and cover*

SemperMortis wrote:
This is where you and I disagree. I feel that GW uses Speese Mehreens as the yard stick to measure all units/armies by and therefore it makes sense to compare similar units.

If that were the case, Space Marines wouldn't have been as bad as they are. Codex: Space Marine was basically a free win for my Deathguard, no matter what they brought.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
hem a worthwhile investment.

So what happens when you take the punch of a 12man tankbustas squad and require most of your army to be dead before you lose that offensive power?

I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Seriously. I don't even know what unit you are talking about. The shokk-jump dragsta?


though I guess anybody can win claiming things like their shokk jump dragster shoot 48" maybe he just cheats his way to that "90%" win rate.

Missed the 3 my bad...38" due to movement. Not to mention the teleport if you get it /shrug

As for the former...it's literally the entire army. Deffskullz with a Brigade gives you 9-12 rokkits plus a handful of Kustom Mega Blastas (even better than rokkits). It's one of the hardest hitting units in the Book (and all of 40k actually) that is better in every way. Which is further combined with far better board presence. Plus you always re-roll wounds and you can split fire perfectly (keep shooting till dead THEN move on).

I'm also curious what lootas are shooting that people thing they're worth it? They're weapon is pretty useless for Orks, even baring the nonsense of d3 shots, as there is no solid targets.

The best thing it does is kill elite infantry (primaris for example)...the hell you need to put crummy shooting into those for?

Tanks? Doesn't quite have the punch...you're 100% better off taking a SAG Big Mek every days of the week. Especially since, i'm sure, the rebutal will be fire twice and more dakka. Those CP are 100x more useful on a SAG (especially relic gun one that happens to be blue) Mek while saving you 160 points to also take ANOTHER baby shock rifle and some grots.

Horde? You've probably just lost due to that choice.

Consider best case being your 255 points of lootas (realistically 345 due to grot shield) shooting off two of my buggies..maybe even 3 if you split fire and don't get screwed by dice...you're breaking even on points (sorta) and dumping 4+ CP into it. Most likely you're not.

I'm well aware prevailing wisdom is that Lootas are good. I'm well aware they have really good POTENTIAL. Problem is the investment and RNG involved. Sometimes you'll kill a knight. Sometimes you'll do as my opponent in the last LVO's Double I played and he killed a trick (barely) and barely scratched a bloat drone. Pathetic showing for the investment.

As an aside, went to LVO doubles with a Death Guard buddy who started all of 40k a few months prior and we won every game. Just didn't win hard enough to place saddly (Death Guard was too tanky not killy).

Honestly, it just boils down to the Civil War. Just because people have always lined up in rows and fought/shot each other doesn't mean it's the best option. Due to pure mathematics (not mathhammer on how killy units are) a Brigade Deathskull list is, easily, one of the strongest lists in all of 40k. I know pretty much no one will agree. I know i'll get shouted down as a troll. Don't care. When you have every unit in your army as expendable you completely side-step your opponents gameplan of "I got this killy unit and I kill your killy unit". When you attack with all angles you multiply the power of your force.

That's the other glaring drawgback of Lootas is they can only shoot. You're paying for an Ork melee profile you have to invest MORE points to not use.

For example, Space Marines are likely to become a problem soon...because they were already damn good with the last codex. And what made them damn good was only multiplyed by 11 in with new codex. It was just masses of troops :shrug: I'm building my 3 battalion list from the old codex, which is only leagues better with the new. It's hilarious that something as amazing as the Indomitus Crusade detachment was ignored; yet once it was placed in the standard book people are singing its praises even when it's, largely, terrible. What jackass would spend 3CP to snip characters with their intercessors when they could do it for the same CP AND have +1A and +1LD? and have double the dudes? And have TRIPLE the dudes with the other guns wreaking even more havoc.

My primary point is that people are stuck in the conservative mindset of tradition with regards to this game. 40k is 40k. It's the same as it was in the '90s. Sorry, but It's not. Sadly the ITC rules push a little hard in re-enforcing this with crappy terrain and too many missions revolving around just murdering things...which is the only reason Knights are relevant. They're a terrible army and shouldn't win any games at all; but when everyone plays glasscannonhammer together (lining up in a field to shoot each other) they stay relevant.

And finally, to the OP, TAKE YOUR TOYS! Ork toys are good if you take some boys to back them and take A LOT. The ONLY way to deal with the current way people play 40k is to diversify your army. That is take as MANY different choices as possible. This directly counters every powergaming list: knights, loota bombs, etc. The worst they can do is kill half their points a turn. Take on the mindsset of "Your best unit just killed one of my useless guys, good job!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Trukks need to go down to 50pts and I seriously doubt that will ever happen. WS should be 4+ (as the buggies). Also, the weapon profiles need to change (big shoota) and the range of available guns increased (rokkits, kmBlastas).

Anyhow, as for the OT. Orks can be played in seevral ways, obviously will depend much on your meta.

Tellyporting stuff, dajumping it. Rush forward the rest can work. Evil suns.

Bad moons + freebootas heavy shooting can work.

MSU deathskulls works.

Goffs, blood axes and snakebites are harder to play.

Please check the tactics thread about orks.

Bold mine.

Trukks are fine, baring the lack of legit Rokkit option. Annoying Chapterhouse casualty. Anyone claiming trukks aren't good hasn't played against MSU Deffskullz with rokkit trukks and Nobs/Slugga Boyz in them. You MUST shoot them or you're in trouble...but then you're wasting shots on a crappy Trukk. This, further, illustrates my point that people don't take into account what a unit does besides it's stat profile. I would laugh my arse off if Trukks dropped to 50 or less as they'd be insane (unless they were explicitly forbidden from taking Rokkits, which would then point them in decent if not good). Think about it...T6, 10w, 6++ save, with Ramshackle, and 12" move that shoots a flat 3D missile? (dakkadakkadakk +to-hit reroll each turn). Though I'd kill for random damage as a Deffskull :(

My favorite example is when I play Star Trek: Armada (great game) I take Victory I destroyers (no one else really does) and win games never firing it. It just blocks off space that I KNOW you won't use or you just die. It's the same with other units. I never "use it" and it still wins me games.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
This is where you and I disagree. I feel that GW uses Speese Mehreens as the yard stick to measure all units/armies by and therefore it makes sense to compare similar units.

If that were the case, Space Marines wouldn't have been as bad as they are. Codex: Space Marine was basically a free win for my Deathguard, no matter what they brought.

And that is the first "bad" codex Space Marines have had....ever? And "Bad" means mid tier as opposed to our Orkz which were bottom tier for 5th, 6th and 7th.

regardless, I think its a fair way to compare units.

Yeah, that's completely untrue, especially for 5th. Even in later editions codex marines were low to mid tier until they got to bring a dozen razorbacks for free.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, that's completely untrue, especially for 5th. Even in later editions codex marines were low to mid tier until they got to bring a dozen razorbacks for free.

5th edition was Parking lot edition, the SM's might not have been head and shoulders above everyone else, but they did have Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels as dominate forces. Plus, just putting a bunch of vehicles on the field, you were about as competitive as most, Ironically this edition orkz were okish because the general rules were favorable for Nob bikers and the lot. Eitherway, 5th editions Space Marines were not bad, they were at worst mid tier. 6th edition (the tiny edition that it was) was fine for Space Marines, 7th they were beast mode and 8th they mid tier until now, arguably they could be top tier again, we just have to wait and find out.

Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels nor Grey Knights are codex space marines though.
The actually codex space marines was quite bad in 5th, while orks had quite a few tournament-worthy lists.

Unless your argument is that "some sort of space marine is always top tier"... which would mean about half of all armies in WH40k.

 Jidmah wrote:
Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels nor Grey Knights are codex space marines though.
The actually codex space marines was quite bad in 5th, while orks had quite a few tournament-worthy lists.

Unless your argument is that "some sort of space marine is always top tier"... which would mean about half of all armies in WH40k.

to be fair in 5th at least there were tons of "space marine" armies that suddenly went from ultramarines or salamanders to space wolf successors. and when 6th came around were suddenly dark angels, and then in 7th were codex marines after the gladius formation iron hands was a thing. now at the start of 8th they were all ultramarines with guilliman.

most space marines players will in my experience run thier army as the strongest army of the half of the armies in the game that thier models count as.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels nor Grey Knights are codex space marines though.
The actually codex space marines was quite bad in 5th, while orks had quite a few tournament-worthy lists.

Unless your argument is that "some sort of space marine is always top tier"... which would mean about half of all armies in WH40k.

to be fair in 5th at least there were tons of "space marine" armies that suddenly went from ultramarines or salamanders to space wolf successors. and when 6th came around were suddenly dark angels, and then in 7th were codex marines after the gladius formation iron hands was a thing. now at the start of 8th they were all ultramarines with guilliman.

most space marines players will in my experience run thier army as the strongest army of the half of the armies in the game that thier models count as.

I find this applies to every army. Or am I the only one who sees only the 'Tau' sept for the Tau?

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels nor Grey Knights are codex space marines though.
The actually codex space marines was quite bad in 5th, while orks had quite a few tournament-worthy lists.

Unless your argument is that "some sort of space marine is always top tier"... which would mean about half of all armies in WH40k.

to be fair in 5th at least there were tons of "space marine" armies that suddenly went from ultramarines or salamanders to space wolf successors. and when 6th came around were suddenly dark angels, and then in 7th were codex marines after the gladius formation iron hands was a thing. now at the start of 8th they were all ultramarines with guilliman.

most space marines players will in my experience run thier army as the strongest army of the half of the armies in the game that thier models count as.

I find this applies to every army. Or am I the only one who sees only the 'Tau' sept for the Tau?

Considering most units are priced around the most effective possible combination, yes most armies and player use them.
Out of necessity, atleast for CSM:

Then ofcourse there are the stuborn plebians like me, that still don't really change

 Sir Heckington wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Neither Space Wolves nor Blood Angels nor Grey Knights are codex space marines though.
The actually codex space marines was quite bad in 5th, while orks had quite a few tournament-worthy lists.

Unless your argument is that "some sort of space marine is always top tier"... which would mean about half of all armies in WH40k.

to be fair in 5th at least there were tons of "space marine" armies that suddenly went from ultramarines or salamanders to space wolf successors. and when 6th came around were suddenly dark angels, and then in 7th were codex marines after the gladius formation iron hands was a thing. now at the start of 8th they were all ultramarines with guilliman.

most space marines players will in my experience run thier army as the strongest army of the half of the armies in the game that thier models count as.

I find this applies to every army. Or am I the only one who sees only the 'Tau' sept for the Tau?

I am not saying they do not. But when I am saying is that until this edition only the space marines really had any choice in the matter. Orks were just orks, tau were just tau. even now they get to choose which kulture/sept they are it is much more limited than space marines who do get to choose a lot more options.

my point there was more addressing the in the past where codex space marine may have been low-mid tier in say 5th edition or 6th edition, space marines had the option (and almost always took it) to play another chapter. so those same models would be space wolves or dark angels as an option whereas orks were just that orks.