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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Ice_can wrote:
Assuming that dreadnaughts get to benifit from Scions of Guilliman.
(Which also means the exsisting marine strategums are now dead.)

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


I'm assuming the space marine strats are dead for awhile myself.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter





Sterling191 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

What's people's reading on how this would interact with C-Beam Cannons?


It means you're on the bounce Marine.


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Pandabeer wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


OUCH. Yeah, that's true. Didn't realize that yet, that will make a group of 3 Aggressors in an Impulsor riding them to their destinatio REALLY dangerous. Insulated from shooting thanks to the 4++ Impulsor 1st turn, then come second turn they can make a 3 + 5" disembark move to get into optimal firing position and then unleash 36+ 6d6 S4 AP-1 shots. My Reaper Chaincannon CSM are gonna be so jealous...

Really interesting one for me will be White Scars tomorrow though as maybe I want to run my Space Wolves with their rules... I love SW but ever since 8th I've been struggling with them because SWs own rules just feel so... out of character for them. At least for me personally. Been looking for a different ruleset to run them with that better fits my vision of SW ever since.

It's even better than that. The Impulsor can move 10" then you can move 8" + the thickness of an aggressor base minus a micro messurment then shoot 18 and double tap. It is going to be totally amazing. This will be a turn 2 move though (cause you cant call tactical doctrine turn 1) if marines get a deep strike stratagem that will work EVEN BETTER. If there is a strat to change doctrines Imupulsor will be totally amazing. There is also some talk about Gman possibly having the doctrine manipulation built in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is interesting though. Stalker bolt rifles are pretty sweet in an ultra build. Turn 1 they are AP -3 and turn 2 they can move and shoot without penalty. So this is a very big improvement from the intercessor spam list I used to run with gman.


Typically I was taking 40 bolt rfiles. Now I can take 30 bolt rifle and 10 stalkers for on demand 10 sniper guns that deal mortals as well with AP-3 turn 1. All my intercessors are getting an additional +1 attack on the first round of combat and they can all move turn 2 and still get double shots at AP-2. Rapid fire is going to obliterate everything with gman aura and I can do it on the move now. VERY VERY good. The 2 CP strat that gives you ap-1 on a 6 is kinda weak...I'm pretty sure that is tiggies warlord trait in a 6" bubble. I'd just make him my warlord if I ever planned on using that strat because it would be on all the time.

There are 15 more strats in that book though. If at least 5 of them are good. I think I can take my old army that was kinda okay and really make opponents rethink their strategy. Nullzone (if it still exist) is going to be the death of armies with all this free AP running around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/08 21:09:36


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did you see the entry for the Special Equipment? I'm kinda confused how that interacts with the regular relics but I don't have time to digest the article.


I think what they meant was here's a relic that's available to Ultramarines as well as Ultramarine successor chapters only


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Aggressors with the move and shoot as if they didn't move is going to be really solid. They will be the #1 threat on the field that needs to die I think. By themselves with minor support they are putting out gross amounts of firepower that's -1 ap. They're brutally efficient. Intercessors also seem really solid with this. Moving and always getting their two shots at ap-2 is really strong.


OUCH. Yeah, that's true. Didn't realize that yet, that will make a group of 3 Aggressors in an Impulsor riding them to their destinatio REALLY dangerous. Insulated from shooting thanks to the 4++ Impulsor 1st turn, then come second turn they can make a 3 + 5" disembark move to get into optimal firing position and then unleash 36+ 6d6 S4 AP-1 shots. My Reaper Chaincannon CSM are gonna be so jealous...

Really interesting one for me will be White Scars tomorrow though as maybe I want to run my Space Wolves with their rules... I love SW but ever since 8th I've been struggling with them because SWs own rules just feel so... out of character for them. At least for me personally. Been looking for a different ruleset to run them with that better fits my vision of SW ever since.

It's even better than that. The Impulsor can move 10" then you can move 8" + the thickness of an aggressor base minus a micro messurment then shoot 18 and double tap. It is going to be totally amazing. This will be a turn 2 move though (cause you cant call tactical doctrine turn 1) if marines get a deep strike stratagem that will work EVEN BETTER. If there is a strat to change doctrines Imupulsor will be totally amazing. There is also some talk about Gman possibly having the doctrine manipulation built in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is interesting though. Stalker bolt rifles are pretty sweet in an ultra build. Turn 1 they are AP -3 and turn 2 they can move and shoot without penalty. So this is a very big improvement from the intercessor spam list I used to run with gman.


Typically I was taking 40 bolt rfiles. Now I can take 30 bolt rifle and 10 stalkers for on demand 10 sniper guns that deal mortals as well with AP-3 turn 1. All my intercessors are getting an additional +1 attack on the first round of combat and they can all move turn 2 and still get double shots at AP-2. Rapid fire is going to obliterate everything with gman aura and I can do it on the move now. VERY VERY good. The 2 CP strat that gives you ap-1 on a 6 is kinda weak...I'm pretty sure that is tiggies warlord trait in a 6" bubble. I'd just make him my warlord if I ever planned on using that strat because it would be on all the time.

There are 15 more strats in that book though. If at least 5 of them are good. I think I can take my old army that was kinda okay and really make opponents rethink their strategy. Nullzone (if it still exist) is going to be the death of armies with all this free AP running around.


Oh I was thinking of this on the way home today, like I think I have to make a 10 man vet squad. Turn 2 30" bolter discipline on the move with rapid fire 2 bolt rifles?! I absolutely demolished my friend on the weekend(granted he took a wraith knight so....) but with these buffs I don't think it would have been fair

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/08 21:54:27


 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut





 fraser1191 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think


Dying wasn't the issue, though. The fact Marines died without actually doing anything was. It was either up their damage output, drop their points or up their resilience. Dropping points meant turning them into a horde. Upping resilience meant them sitting their forever whilst not actually damaging anything. The killier option was really the only one that might offer a fix.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 fraser1191 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
You know what, this is starting to get a tad ridiculous.


A little bit. I think once it's out we'll see what it actually does but right now everything is in a bit of a vacuum. Intercessors are still 17ppm, and I normally say they're too much. But now I don't know.

They die exactly the same as before this codex so I'm not sure what to think

Right now at 17 they are too much. They play more like a 15 point model. Now with bonus attacks in CC and AP 2 bolters on turn 2. They are easily worth 17 not just for Ultramarines ether. As Imperial fist they are amazing Offensively. As Ironhands they are practically immune to assault from anything but a heavy unit and get bonus toughness. Rerolling all wounds though with ap-2 as ultras and can with 36" threat range - nothing that isn't t8 is safe from the onslaut. Even in CC later in the game with ap -1. Looking like an alstar unit.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

3 man Aggressor Squads in Impulsors might be a great way to play them.

But hey, Hellblasters work too!

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.


yeah the extra rule seems odd. I don't mind additional options but just a "ohh yeah here's a completely free bonus rule" seems a bit odd. on the other hand this might explain why Ultramarines didn't see a buff to their chapter tactic.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.
Personally I would have preferred they change the Ultras tactic to +1 Leadership and can chose their doctrine for every unit every turn. So basically their tactic would be ap-1 +1 LD. It would have been on the same power level as the other tactics then and they wouldn't need this special rule. The special rule is actually better as you will just build your army around a single discipline and stay on whats best for them and it wouldn't have created the I get to move and act as stationary shenanigans. I still think other chapters have a lot to offer though. Ultras will be the better infantry spam army. Imperial fists and ironhands will be the best gunlines.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

\
I am however a touch saddened that this means the create a chapter won't be as good. 1 step forward 2 back

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Well, we really don't know that yet.

There might be a table to pick from a set of Doctrine based abilities.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor

This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

Which pretty much ruins any interesting choices the doctrine system might otherwise offer. Bad idea.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I notice the UM stuff previewed seems to favor tactical doctrine, it would be very easy to make the other 1st foundings distinct by giving them a similer ability tailored for what doctrine they favor


This is absolutely going to happen. Each of the chapters will receive a bonus set of rules whilst operating in their preferred doctrine.

Okay so...there is likely something even stronger than ultramarines coming. Cause ultrasmarines chapter tactic blows. If Ironhands get the same rule for devestator that ultras got for tactical - that will be even better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/08 23:12:40


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Crimson wrote:
Aside the power creep issues (or is this more of a power dash at this point?) I don't like this Ultra extra rule and I hope it is not a template for other supplements. The doctrine mechanic is interesting as you need to actively think when to switch. But if you get a massive bonus tied to one doctrine, then most of the time the no-brainer choice is to switch to that ASAP and stay there.


The more I ponder the more I feel like we should treat this just like Deathwatch.

Deathwatch always has some special ammo active. The SM ammo is more broadly used, but is certainly less versatile.

An DW Intercessor w/ Kraken Bolts is 36", S4 AP2 -- rapid firing at 18"/36" stationary.
An UM Intercessor w/ Tactical is 30" S4 AP2 -- rapid firing at 30" by turn 2 for all aspects.

On turn 1 this makes the UM Intercessor strictly inferior and then moderately better / more flexible by turn 2.

Now when considering tactics UM provide nothing spectacular while DW get reroll 1s to wound.

Are DW Intercessors breaking the game? It certainly seems to not be the case.

The confounding pieces are 1) do Forgeworld units benefit, 2) how easy will Aggressors rustle our jimmies, and 3) what other units might benefit greatly.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Ishagu wrote:
Well, word on the street is that Imperial Fists and Iron Hands is what most people will gravitate towards once everything is out.
I bet you those are the last 2 codex that get released too.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

I think Iron Hands will be the third book, and Fists will be dead last.

The Fists book will probably include BT and CF as well, making it the biggest potentially.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





am a little elery of IFs being the best as I'm leaning towards making my custom chapter a IF sucessor :(

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
am a little elery of IFs being the best as I'm leaning towards making my custom chapter a IF sucessor :(

You really shouldn't let that stop you. People have always tried finding ways to make their Marines work and not suck. If your created Chapter is an Imperial Fists successor and they end up being super powerful, you should be happy. Keeping your custom colors is just a way to make your Marines functional. I know I've done that and I have several HQ units I designed to use as stand-ins in various armies.

Now granted, nothing should be absurdly powerful where it's an auto-choice. That's not the fault of us though.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.


To charge with what, though? If this is anything like the last three Codices then we're gonna be getting a bunch of really great shooting units that make no sense to play as BT

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot





Holy Terra

Everything can get extra attacks and extra AP in combat now?

Reivers, Intercessors, Termies maybe?

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The pessimist in me is thinking that there's going to be some amazing builds in this supplement and that Black Templars are going to be an afterthought as usual, which means you get 0 sympathy when complaining about how bad your army is because everyone goes "just play them as [Chapter that doesn't play like BT at all].

I think a 60% chance to succeed a charge from Deep Strike makes them a winner, really. The mortal wound protection is just icing on the cake after that, and we haven't an idea if their Strats might be at least mediocre.


To charge with what, though? If this is anything like the last three Codices then we're gonna be getting a bunch of really great shooting units that make no sense to play as BT

Um, anything that Deep Strikes? Granted you'll need to supplement with Infiltrators to help with denying screens and probably TFCs to help clear other screens, but I would've been doing that anyway.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Ishagu wrote:
Everything can get extra attacks and extra AP in combat now?

Reivers, Intercessors, Termies maybe?


Yea there is no shortage of viable units. Dual CS VV getting 5A each at AP1 is no joke.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
 
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