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It's the chapter specific super doctrines that will though.
They are actually quite good, but are harder to gain access to

Possible.
Also possible that all marines suddenly turn through that into Successors from x due to bad balance between the super doctrines.

I guess we will see.

 Kanluwen wrote:

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Niiru wrote:

Why? Chaos are, so far, the only army to have been completely shafted by the second wave of codex releases. If every other army gets the Space Marine treatment, then Chaos will be (by a fair margin) the bottomest of bottom tier codex releases in wave2.

Go ahead and name all of the books that have received a "second wave of codex releases".

I can wait.

Chaos and Space Marines. That's kind of the whole point of what I said. Chaos got nothing, Space Marines got huge alterations and buffs. If the later codex releases follow the Space Marine precedent, then Chaos will be extremely badly off. If later codex releases follow the Chaos precedent, then Chaos will still be badly off, but they'll have company.

I mean I've written it all out again using more words, but I have basically just said the same thing twice... if it still doesn't make sense then I'm not sure I can help you with that sorry.

Daedalus81 wrote:
Our apostle is more reliable.
The apostle abilities are better.
There is no SM equivalent to the Discordant.
Chaincannons are great as are havoks who dont need to wait until turn 2 to move and shoot.
We have better psyker access despite their extra lores.
We have killer models.
Abaddon got much better.
There are a number of good stratagems and a lot of excellent relics.

Not to mention chaos knights on top of moirax.

As for the these -

Dark Apostle is expensive, even without taking into account the rhino he'd need for transport. He's not bad, but he's situational. He's ok. He gets a lot of options for abilities, but you can only pick one of them so he's still limited. Again, he's not terrible, but he's nothing to write home about.

Lord Disco is a cool model with cool rules. He's fairly ok. He'd severely restricted by being very easy to kill. Making him a targetable character and 180 points is a hell of a fragile points sink. I still like him, but I don't really expect him to survive past turn 1/2 very often.

Chain-Havoks. Fun gun on paper, but again they're more likely to be dead before they get to shoot anything worthwhile. If they could be dropped in a drop pod for a turn 1 surprise chaff-murder-spree, they might be good. But only Imperials get turn-1 drop pods. And chaos drop pods are very expensive, so still probably not worth it.

Psykers. Chaos have good ones, between all the different lores we get, plus daemons. No argument here, Chaos have great psykers.

Chaos do also have some cool models. This was significantly less true a year ago, but lately we did have some nice updates. Also better conversion opportunities. Doesn't really translate to tabletop performance, but it's a nice thing to have I'll admit.

Abaddon is good. Super expensive, but he's a beatstick. Honestly not sure how competitive he might be. If you tailor a list around him, I think he can be good. Otherwise, overpriced. Probably how he should be tbh.

Number of good stratagems and relics.... yes, I guess. There's like 2 stratagems that pretty much everyone HAS to take, otherwise they're crippling themselves. Which also leads to armies being forced into certain builds and god-allegiences. It's not the best situation to be in. I'd much prefer a wider variety of good statagems so you can build the army you want and still be good, rather than 2 overpowered ones and the rest meh. (HOWEVER - I'll admit that this probably isn't a Chaos specific problem. But most armies (like Imperials) usually are limited by their legion choice and that's it. Chaos are limited by legion choice AND by god choice, with some options restricting other options and so on. It can be a pain at times. Would be fine if we had benefits from being restricted to a certain god / legion, but we get nothing from gods and our traits are mostly garbage.)

Bringing this all back on topic - If the FAQ for the marine successor chapters codex allowed chaos warbands to create their own legion trait, based on the same rules, then that would fix a fair few issues. It would, unfortunately, completely retire about 90% of the existing chaos legion traits as the new ones are pretty much all a straight upgrade. But DG and TS would still get used because of their unique units, and Black Legion have their own benefits from abaddon and strats/relics. Only things like Iron Warriors and Word Bearers would get replaced... but then noone plays as them anyway because they're garbage.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

They're really handled badly. Once you go Renegade you suddenly get Autocannons on your Terminators and Devastators, oh and by the way all your Apothecaries died.

I've never understood why they removed Autocannons from Devastators.
As for the Apothecaries bit, I wish they hadn't done the Lord of Executions but instead had done a Genethief.

Seeing how GW is trying to handle the main Chapters and their Successors, there's absolutely no reason it should be as is. Then they can just make the unique units something along giving them Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn (which can reasonably show varying levels of chaos association and/or mutations).

The biggest issue I have with stuff like this is then it might as well just be its own damn codex.


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Not Online!!! wrote:

Two are out. Csm, and sm.

If you want to play the "technically correct" game, C: Space Marines isn't out until this coming Saturday.

It is propper to point out the massive differences.
Especially from a custommer position.
Nothing good will come from that.

It's also proper to point out that C: SM has been gutted of any/all Special Characters to go into these Supplements. The book is, effectively, just an Index of what units the Loyalist Space Marines have.
It's also proper to point out that it's long been speculated that we'll be seeing full-fledged codices for the remaining "God-marked Legions"(Emperor's Children and World Eaters) when they get their Primarchs released.

It also is rather angereing, how would've many SM players felt if roles were reversed, do you think they wouldn't react the same way?
I doubt it.

I didn't say they wouldn't be, but the difference is that it's been a nonstop pity party for CSM in the run-up to their book, after their book dropped, a huge whinefest about Cultists getting their points hiked(the book is Chaos Space Marines, not Cultists--that one's on you tourney guys), and now it's a "WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE THINGS TOO!".

Btw, the renegade chapters are in Vigilus.
And mark restricted.
Altough they are all ok to good.

Vigilus Ablaze isn't one I've picked up, but the point still remains that it's not an easy to do subject.

Renegades covers everything from Chapters that are still ostensibly Loyalists but censured by the Inquisition to Warp-touched/tainted groups that fell in a rapid fashion.

You were on board with consolidation if I remember correctly. Renegades getting two pages dedicated to those three units and how to switch keywords is pretty easy as an additive. Then for Huron, based on the previous bonuses, treating the Red Corsairs as a successor for Dark Angels or White Scars makes sense.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

People, lets take a breath. I know you don't like your chaos 2.0 dex, lets keep in mind, only 2 of these books has been placed out yet. Better ? No ? Ok

You can and I've said this before, just make an army with the loyalist rules, and " Say " they are " Renegades " No worries guys. Relax, so long as they have a unique paint scheme I don't think anyone will give a rats rear end what their back story is. You just don't have all the loyalist stuff and chaos god powers.

Just because a chapter, or company is renegade doesn't mean they follow chaos. Maybe, they just disagree with the priests, were pushed a step too far, tried to save civies over killing them all because someone saw a demon ?!?!

The world is your oyster, if you like them, if not, it's whatever else you want it to be. You just can't do both, the story is what you make of it so long as you're using the rules for the right faction, have at it.

the problem for chaos really is this is the second time in a row this has happened to chaos players where they got what they thought was a solid workable codex and then 2 months later space marines basicly changes the entire ballgame (6th edition did this too) . I play both marines and chaos marines and I'll agree it is frustrating. where it's mostly frustrating is the feeling that GW simply didn't take the time to cordinate the two codices in advance etc and instead phoned in the CSM 'dex

Its not just chaos that happens with though. I played Dark Angels back when they got their end of 4th edition codex. It was absolute garbage crap. I was told, the new marine dex would be just like it.

TLDR, it wasn't at all like the DA book, it was worlds better. I was screwed playing them for like 5 years before I got a book work a crap. So it isn't just chaos that get the shaft. Hell, Black Templar even lost their codex, thats worse than phoning it in.

You got model support with chaos, and it may be low effort but not as low effort as some of their offerings. Just look on the bright side. Could be worse.