Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except they don't get a lot of guns which you keep pretending they do. Scouts and Intercessors actually fill a role to be kept, whereas Tactical Marines don't and never will.

The role is, "Engage elements of opposing forces with weapons appropriate to the task." Which they do.

No one's forcing you to take 'em, geez.

well.. *A* weapon approperate to the task, the rest of them use boltguns

As opposed to Bolt Rifles? The difference is pretty minimal. Sarge can Combi up too, if you want.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tacs remain the Space Marine troops with the hardest hitting guns, however. In my book, if you gotta take troops for CP, may as well be the ones with access to the big guns.

I don't think that matters if you can't keep them firing. Putting an 11 pt gun on a one wound 12 pt dope who has other one wound dopes in front of him seems very last edition.

I'd argue completely the opposite, last edition there was no split firing so specialization was even more important because you would just waste boltgun shots when you wanted to fire melta at something. In this edition every gun can fire at appropriate targets. In this edition the combi/specials can double up on what they want to shoot while boltguns provide aggregate fire.

And as much as people seem to joke about the boltgun, it still is shooting and it still provides enough firepower to chip off some bits of chaff here and there, especially with tactical doctrines now.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except they don't get a lot of guns which you keep pretending they do. Scouts and Intercessors actually fill a role to be kept, whereas Tactical Marines don't and never will.

The role is, "Engage elements of opposing forces with weapons appropriate to the task." Which they do.

No one's forcing you to take 'em, geez.

well.. *A* weapon approperate to the task, the rest of them use boltguns

As opposed to Bolt Rifles? The difference is pretty minimal. Sarge can Combi up too, if you want.

kinda the differance between old marines and primaris Marines is where the flexability comes in the modular system of MK X combined with how they employ their weapons makes a squad of marines less flexable on a low level tactical scale but at a larger more strategic scale Primaris are proably MORE flexable. which makes the revision make some sense, Gulliman was always a "big picture" kinda guy

Vilehydra wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Tacs remain the Space Marine troops with the hardest hitting guns, however. In my book, if you gotta take troops for CP, may as well be the ones with access to the big guns.

I don't think that matters if you can't keep them firing. Putting an 11 pt gun on a one wound 12 pt dope who has other one wound dopes in front of him seems very last edition.

I'd argue completely the opposite, last edition there was no split firing so specialization was even more important because you would just waste boltgun shots when you wanted to fire melta at something. In this edition every gun can fire at appropriate targets. In this edition the combi/specials can double up on what they want to shoot while boltguns provide aggregate fire.

And as much as people seem to joke about the boltgun, it still is shooting and it still provides enough firepower to chip off some bits of chaff here and there, especially with tactical doctrines now.

People accepted that boltguns were a waste in 7th usually.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except they don't get a lot of guns which you keep pretending they do. Scouts and Intercessors actually fill a role to be kept, whereas Tactical Marines don't and never will.

The role is, "Engage elements of opposing forces with weapons appropriate to the task." Which they do.

No one's forcing you to take 'em, geez.

well.. *A* weapon approperate to the task, the rest of them use boltguns

As opposed to Bolt Rifles? The difference is pretty minimal. Sarge can Combi up too, if you want.

kinda the differance between old marines and primaris Marines is where the flexability comes in the modular system of MK X combined with how they employ their weapons makes a squad of marines less flexable on a low level tactical scale but at a larger more strategic scale Primaris are proably MORE flexable. which makes the revision make some sense, Gulliman was always a "big picture" kinda guy

I'm not sure what you mean, honestly. I get that Primaris are organized more like Legions, but I'm not sure where the flexibility comes with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

People accepted that boltguns were a waste in 7th usually.

If so, part of the reason is because people didn't field light troops, because there were a ton of Boltguns.

Split fire should have made tacticals more useful. And it does, a bit. But the problem is this edition also made vehicles into things that take 3+ high damage rolls to bring down. 1 melta gun isn't giving you AT, 1 plasma is killing only 1 heavy trooper out of a unit, etc. You still need mass shots to kill anything. Older editions, statistically that tactical wasn't taking out a tank alone either, but it *could*, the enemy had to respect that threat.

And sure, you can mass tacticals. But then if you're looking at several hundred points of tacticals you can also look at several hundred points of mixing other units that perform similar roles...I don't think tacticals are in a terrible spot, I'd probably even use them if Rhinos had the Assault Vehicle rule or firepoints. But I don't plan to use them as is.

^Imo it's all about aggregation. Like I've often run 4 ten man tac squads, plasma, combi-plas and heavy (Las or Grav, usually). Up close it's the equivalent to three more Dev squads worth of shooting in terms of high power guns, plus more bolters and more wounds. Since I often already max out my Devs, it's sort of a natural fit. I need troops anyways.

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except they don't get a lot of guns which you keep pretending they do. Scouts and Intercessors actually fill a role to be kept, whereas Tactical Marines don't and never will.

The role is, "Engage elements of opposing forces with weapons appropriate to the task." Which they do.

No one's forcing you to take 'em, geez.

well.. *A* weapon approperate to the task, the rest of them use boltguns

As opposed to Bolt Rifles? The difference is pretty minimal. Sarge can Combi up too, if you want.

kinda the differance between old marines and primaris Marines is where the flexability comes in the modular system of MK X combined with how they employ their weapons makes a squad of marines less flexable on a low level tactical scale but at a larger more strategic scale Primaris are proably MORE flexable. which makes the revision make some sense, Gulliman was always a "big picture" kinda guy

I'm not sure what you mean, honestly. I get that Primaris are organized more like Legions, but I'm not sure where the flexibility comes with that.


between the differant weapons an armor configurations you can do a lot more with 100 Primaris then you could with 100 standard marines. tomorrows snipers in light phobosd armor (eliminators) could be deployed today as aggressors. and get deployed later on as hell blasters.

^Ehh. . . There's a number of ways that could be responded to.

A: Classic marine units are individually more flexible, so they don't have to change their designation to match the mission.

B: Classics can be deployed as Bikes or crewmen for a much wider variety of vehicles.

C: Even though I can't stand them, Classics could be deployed as Centurions, too.

D: Theoretically you could just give any Tac Marine a Jump Pack and a Chainsword and he becomes an Assault Marine, as they're all cross trained. The only factor is wether or not the equipment is available, which is just the same as it would be for Primaris.

But really, why are we doing this here, as this is a tactics thread?

Wow this blew up more than the first couple days I checked. Appreciate the input and think I got my answer mostly. Funny thing too, as the YouTube battle rep I watch lately actually had a game with Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons, in which the player ran a lot of 5 man tac squads. They had a good mix of plasmas and the heavy weapons, also some full squads with normal boltguns, basically being objective grabbers or cannon fodder.

As first mentioned maybe I wasted some money on that 2nd grey hunter group (limited bits with only boltgun, plasma, chainsword options), but it's fine as it's just a hobby and I'll try to make it work depending on perspective. Looks like I need to grab some devastator squads (searched a bit for those long fangs, only to find out that they're not produced by GW anymore), to round out the versatile options.

Also if this is not "Tactic" appropriate, then would a moderator change this to the army list section, sorry newer to the forums...and a lot of those stratagems mentioned I am totally unfamiliar with so far. To put my position (or return) in perspective the last rulebook I have is the cover with the Black Templars on it... and that game is totally different than it is now lol.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except they don't get a lot of guns which you keep pretending they do. Scouts and Intercessors actually fill a role to be kept, whereas Tactical Marines don't and never will.

The role is, "Engage elements of opposing forces with weapons appropriate to the task." Which they do.

No one's forcing you to take 'em, geez.

well.. *A* weapon approperate to the task, the rest of them use boltguns

TWO weapons: the special one and the combi one. That's 40% of the squad.
And it's still cheaper than a squad of intercessors.
More guns and more bodies. Intercessors are new but they are already outdated, especially now they are more popular than ever and everyone is getting D2 weapons into their lists.

(170 pts for 10 intercessors, 164 for 2*5 tacticals with 2 plasma guns and 2 c-plasma).