Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Because you can roll each attack separately, you should be able to resolve them one at a time until the target until is dead, correct?

Not that I'm arguing that this is RAI, but I thought that was the case for all attacks. For example, if I roll a 6 with DDD, I can resolve that hit before needing to roll to see if the extra attack hits.

 flandarz wrote:
Because you can roll each attack separately, you should be able to resolve them one at a time until the target until is dead, correct?

Not that I'm arguing that this is RAI, but I thought that was the case for all attacks. For example, if I roll a 6 with DDD, I can resolve that hit before needing to roll to see if the extra attack hits.

while it's true you resolve them one a t a time, you never get past resolution of the hit step because you are stuck figuring out the number of extra hits caused....infinitely.

Well, my understanding was that you could say: "ok, this attack generated an additional hit", and then immediately move to the Wound phase for the first hit, finished resolving it, then go back to resolving the next one. As far as I'm aware, the only step in the attack sequence which HAS to be done all at once is Choose Targets. After that, I can resolve a single attack at a time until I run out of attacks, or the unit is dead. And this SHOULD include any additional hits you get from abilities. Ie: I don't have to "roll" the additional attack until I resolve the current one. Which would mean the additional attack would proc another additional hit until I get to it.

 Type40 wrote:


2. The game can still break from any army that can simply gain a second ability that generates hits.

This is clearly a very poor error on GWs part no mater what. It is clearly not the intention to give infinite attacks... the question is,,,, how do we play the game now,,,, just figure out some house rules or what ? its unclear if we should just ignore gaining extra hits or if we should ignore all abilities that trigger on sixes .

Yes, you need to be able to daisy chain two "extra hit due to X" - with X being the same - abilities Because the question is "other abilities" - you can't do it with JUST Tesla, or JUST Whatever the hell imperial Seige Craft as a Chapter Tactic I can't find is - The IF Chapter Tactic isn't Seige anything - its Architect of War and it's not in the Successor tactics I can see.

Even if the example is exactly like Whirlwind of Rage but for shooting - The Marksman Carbine doesn't provide an additional hit - it just automatically wounds. So if you roll a 6 to hit, and get a bonus hit, the Marksman carbine makes two hits auto wound. The Imperial Seige tactic is not another ability that can be triggered by its own ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Because you can roll each attack separately, you should be able to resolve them one at a time until the target until is dead, correct?

Not that I'm arguing that this is RAI, but I thought that was the case for all attacks. For example, if I roll a 6 with DDD, I can resolve that hit before needing to roll to see if the extra attack hits.

while it's true you resolve them one a t a time, you never get past resolution of the hit step because you are stuck figuring out the number of extra hits caused....infinitely.

This. When/IF you can get to this point the shortcut is to just delete the target unit because the inifinite hits don't stop until the unit is gone (even then, the hits don't really stop, they just stop mattering). The long way around is to resolve each hit, wound, armor save, one at a time until every wound in the unit is taken off the unit, because if even one is an infiinite hit combo, you get to continue generating 1 more hit until you decide to stop - when the unit is erased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's the combo -

Whirlwind of Rage
Benediction of Fury (optional, for the Mortal Wounds)
Litany of Exhortation of Rage

1 Unmodified 6:
Triggers Whirlwind, which triggers Litany, which triggers Whirlwind
AND
Triggers Litany, which triggers Whirlwind which triggers Litany.

it "only" works on the turn you charged, was charged, or made a Heroic Intervention

The point is it just shouldn't exsist in the first place, they didn't need to add all the extra wording that is causing the problem or they could have just made an answer that contains the required caveats.

To the people saying ah but the question the answer is too, you do realise that we all read across the FAQ and have done for ages otherwise the deathguard FAQ didn't allow anyone but deathguard to use other sources of unlocked strategums.

Not to mention that allowing stacking of production effects is not great for balance.
How do you cost units that can double the benifit when a subfaction eg Imperial Fists do double the MW on 6's of any other chapter due to 6's cause additional hits, do you cost the unit for Imperial fists and over costed for everyone else or cost them for everyone else and IF ones are undecosted/OP?

I feel its quite balanced under RAW because it just requires that you play with a clock.

Do you have infinite hits yes i agree you do

Now please roll an infinite number of wound rolls before progressing to the damage step

Player spends 90 minutes rolling dice till their clock runs out.

They are clocked out and their turn ends while resolving wound rolls before damage is applied.

U02dah4 wrote:
I feel its quite balanced under RAW it just requires that you play with a clock.

Do you have infinite hits yes i agree you do

Now please roll an infinite number of wound rolls before progressing to the damage step

Player spends 90 minutes rolling dice till their clock runs out.

They are clocked out and their turn ends while resolving wound rolls before damage is applied.

Ha ha I like your style
Its just unfortunate that it now makes playing on a clock for even casual play 40k mandatory.

Ice_can wrote:

The point is it just shouldn't exsist in the first place, they didn't need to add all the extra wording that is causing the problem or they could have just made an answer that contains the required caveats.

Oh, dude. We're way past that point right now. We're past it, and laughing at the results. We'll come back to shouldn't exist in the first place later.

To the people saying ah but the question the answer is too, you do realise that we all read across the FAQ and have done for ages otheriwuse the Wraithguard FAQ didn't allow anyone but dearhguard to use other sourxea of unlocked strategums.
Nit to mention that allowing stacking of production effects is not great for balance as how do you cost units that can double benifit when eg IF do double the MW of any other chapter do you cost them for IF and over costed for everyone else or cost them for everyone else and IF ones are undecosted/OP?

Um. You may want to edit and clean this part up. I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The point is it just shouldn't exsist in the first place, they didn't need to add all the extra wording that is causing the problem or they could have just made an answer that contains the required caveats.

Oh, dude. We're way past that point right now. We're past it, and laughing at the results. We'll come back to shouldn't exist in the first place later.

To the people saying ah but the question the answer is too, you do realise that we all read across the FAQ and have done for ages otheriwuse the Wraithguard FAQ didn't allow anyone but dearhguard to use other sourxea of unlocked strategums.
Nit to mention that allowing stacking of production effects is not great for balance as how do you cost units that can double benifit when eg IF do double the MW of any other chapter do you cost them for IF and over costed for everyone else or cost them for everyone else and IF ones are undecosted/OP?

Um. You may want to edit and clean this part up. I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Really should have my morning coffee before trying to rush a post.

U02dah4 wrote:
I feel its quite balanced under RAW because it just requires that you play with a clock.

Do you have infinite hits yes i agree you do

Now please roll an infinite number of wound rolls before progressing to the damage step

Player spends 90 minutes rolling dice till their clock runs out.

They are clocked out and their turn ends while resolving wound rolls before damage is applied.

They don't have to, they can resolve each attack sequence individually - they don't have to fast roll.

Make Hit Roll
Make Wound Roll
You allocate wound
You roll save
Inflict damage.

If you're talking about the ITC clock rules, it looks like you're on the clock while you're allocating damage/wounds/armor saving and you can't by RAW fast roll armor saves, like the attacking player can with these infinite attacks that will by default all be the same S/AP/D

This would not work in your favor, as they can roll a moving box of dice the first time, and then have you stuck rolling armor saves 1 die at a time. Everybody's time is gone, your time is gone faster because you roll one at a time, AND you're down one unit to their none (assuming first turn of the first battle round)

The most important rule is rule number 1. This is the most important rule because it puts time in your control, and fairly
allocates time while players interact. It is each playe's right to pass the time to his opponent whenever they are making an action
or spending time making a decision.
Some examples of this are as follows:
1. You put 20 wounds on a unit containing models with different saving throws. Pass the clock to your opponent so he can make
his saving throws in the order that he chooses.

While, according to the rules, you can continue to roll armor saves after you're out of time, you will be out of time, the game will end after the end of a "game turn" that I'm guessing means Battle Round? - if it means player turn you're really out of luck - when neither player has more than 5 minutes left.

In this case the solution is not the clock, its an FAQ of the FAQ creating a universal rule that bonus attacks/hits/wounds can never generate bonus attacks/hits/wounds.

Except you can never make it out of hit as it's a automatic 1 becomes 2 after the first 6 is rolled to infinity, simply put how many hits did you get?
We can't move onto wounds untill the number of hits from that single roll has been determined and you be definition can not determine an infinite number. Game broken well done FAQ writer.

You dont have permission to half roll fast dice you must roll them all or you are correct you can roll them individually

Fast Dice
Rolling
The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.
However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together. In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit. If this is the
case,

"make all of the hit
rolls at the same time,"

then

"all of the wound rolls."

So no you cannot roll a box of dice unless it contains infinite dice.

You may resolve dice sequentially however by comaprison a chainsword vs knight that would be an expectancy of 432 seperate to wound rolls on your time but only 72 armour saves on my time. Your clock is going to burn out quick. Im assuming around 5-6 seconds per roll as im going to incist under ITC that I am allowd to varify your roll before you move on to the next.

If its 2+ knight 864 rolls for you at 6 seconds a role because im assuming your pace will slow down slightly after 200 roles thats 86.4 minutes

I would also note that once you have started fast rolling you must roll all dice fast rolling their is no opportunity to switch back to single rolling.

Ice_can wrote:
Except you can never make it out of hit as it's a automatic 1 becomes 2 after the first 6 is rolled to infinity, simply put how many hits did you get?
We can't move onto wounds untill the number of hits from that single roll has been determined and you be definition can not determine an infinite number. Game broken well done FAQ writer.

The single roll has been determined. If it hasn't the additional hit that counts as having the same hit roll (and thus is a new hit roll) never begins, never triggers the other ability, etc. Those bonus hits are queued up, but can be stuck in line behind the wound roll, etc.

 Type40 wrote:
Exactly, its not the "yes" that's the problem. Its the wider connotation coming from the explanation of why it happens.

"the additional hits are treated as having rolled the same value as the dice roll that generated them."

That explanation simply says why "other benefits" trigger. The explanation statement has a wider connotation though. The explanation statement is NOT limited to "other benefits." Please see the examples I wrote above.

We do in fact treat many other FAQs this way. Also, this is how we treat questions in general in English. No way around it. The question is specific the answer is broad. The answer does answer the question and states soooo much more...

Mind playing that through with a CSM lord with spitefull flames, DTFFE and Ghovshrex teeth?

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Except you can never make it out of hit as it's a automatic 1 becomes 2 after the first 6 is rolled to infinity, simply put how many hits did you get?
We can't move onto wounds untill the number of hits from that single roll has been determined and you be definition can not determine an infinite number. Game broken well done FAQ writer.

The single roll has been determined. If it hasn't the additional hit that counts as having the same hit roll (and thus is a new hit roll) never begins, never triggers the other ability, etc. Those bonus hits are queued up, but can be stuck in line behind the wound roll, etc.

Except then you only get 1 additional hit as you have called it at that point a single additional hit.
So its now only 2 hits no additional additionals.
You can have it one way or the other not both, Though in reality GW should just change the broken FAQ answer.

U02dah4 wrote:


"make all of the hit
rolls at the same time,"

then

"all of the wound rolls."

So no you cannot roll a box of dice unless it contains infinite dice.

You may resolve dice sequentially however by comaprison a chainsword vs knight that would be an expectancy of 432 seperate to wound rolls on your time but only 72 armour saves on my time.

All of the Hit rolls and all of the wound rolls for that collection of attacks you're fast rolling. Fast Rolling doesn't require you fast roll all of your attacks, just that you fast roll all of the attacks you're choosing to fast roll in that batch at the same time. If your box holds 400 dice, you can choose to fast roll batches of 400 wound rolls (as the hit rolls are automatic)

In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must

Several attacks at once, not all attacks at once.

By Raw, you'd have to roll groups until the combo hits. Finish the group where the combo hit through damage application. Then you can just pick a number and fast roll wounds until everyone's clock is empty - and thus the opponent has a zero second turn (or no further turn depending on turn order, definition of 'game turn" vs Battle Round, etc) or the opponent on the receiving end agrees to consider all further hits and wounds as lost when their unit is destroyed to save their own clock.

See above quote fast rolling is all its explicit in the fast rolling section

"If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time,
then all of the wound rolls."

Not make a portion of the wound rolls you deem sufficient

Your saying by Raw you have to roll groups but by fast rolling the group is all the attacks with the same WS/strength/AP/damage

Ice_can wrote:

Breton wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Except you can never make it out of hit as it's a automatic 1 becomes 2 after the first 6 is rolled to infinity, simply put how many hits did you get?
We can't move onto wounds untill the number of hits from that single roll has been determined and you be definition can not determine an infinite number. Game broken well done FAQ writer.

The single roll has been determined. If it hasn't the additional hit that counts as having the same hit roll (and thus is a new hit roll) never begins, never triggers the other ability, etc. Those bonus hits are queued up, but can be stuck in line behind the wound roll, etc.

Except then you only get 1 additional hit as you have called it at that point a single additional hit.
So its now only 2 hits no additional additionals.
You can have it one way or the other not both, Though in reality GW should just change the broken FAQ answer.

No you haven't. You're just batching and queuing the results. Once the hit generates additional hits, the first hit can be resolved, the next hit can be queued and generate two more hits, which queue up and generate four more hits while the previous hits are resolved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
See above quote fast rolling is all its explicit in the fast rolling section

"If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time,
then all of the wound rolls."

That's why I quoted the part you're skipping over back at you.

In order
to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must

It does not say you must fast roll all attacks, you may fast roll several it says if you fast roll, you roll all of the dice in that fast roll at the same time. You are able to fast roll multiple batches of attacks from the same unit. Some people only have 20 dice, so 10 Assault 3 Auto-bolters will require batch rolling fast rolling.

It absolutely does in the end of the paragraph its litterally the last line.

Yes that first section defines what a group the end of that paragraph defines how to resolve it

However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together. In order to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit. If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

In order to fast roll and group dice they must have the same characteristics but you must roll all to hit and all to wound rolls at the same time. It doesn't give you permission to half fast roll or create subgroups within a fast roll its all wound rolls or dont fast roll

In this case we agree they have the same characteristics so may be grouped Next sentence if this is the case make all of the hit rolls at the same time then all the wound rolls. It id explicit all not some

U02dah4 wrote:


In order to fast roll and group dice they must have the same characteristics but you must roll all to hit and all to wound rolls at the same time. It doesn't give you permission to half fast roll or create subgroups within a fast roll its all wound rolls or dont fast roll

In this case we agree they have the same characteristics so may be grouped Next sentence if this is the case make all of the hit rolls at the same time then all the wound rolls. It id explicit all not some

All the hit and wound rolls in the group. Nowhere does it say the group must be all the attacks. Just that all the attacks in the group must be rolled all together. 10 Assault 3 Auto Bolters can roll two groups of 15. 10 White Scar bikes can roll their 10 Rapidfiring TL-Boltguns in 2 groups of 20.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:


In order to fast roll and group dice they must have the same characteristics but you must roll all to hit and all to wound rolls at the same time. It doesn't give you permission to half fast roll or create subgroups within a fast roll its all wound rolls or dont fast roll

In this case we agree they have the same characteristics so may be grouped Next sentence if this is the case make all of the hit rolls at the same time then all the wound rolls. It id explicit all not some

All the hit and wound rolls in the group. Nowhere does it say the group must be all the attacks. Just that all the attacks in the group must be rolled all together. 10 Assault 3 Auto Bolters can roll two groups of 15. 10 White Scar bikes can roll their 10 Rapidfiring TL-Boltguns in 2 groups of 20.

No where does it say you may create several groups you may roll sequentially or you may choose to fast roll.



"If this is the case" (in reference to the attacks meeting the similarity criteria) "make all" not "make some" or group into several small groups to roll individually. "Make all"

Sure your bikers may roll 2 groups of 20 dice when resolve their wound rolls but all those wound rolls must be made before moving to damage if you only roll the first 20 you have not "made all" the wound rolls.

U02dah4 wrote:
No where does it say you may create several groups you may roll sequentially or you may choose to fast roll.



"If this is the case" (in reference to the attacks meeting the similarity criteria) "make all" not "make some" or group into several small groups to roll individually. "Make all"

In order to make several attacks at
once,

In order to make several attacks at once. Several Not all. Several. You have to make all of the rolls for that several at once, but you don't have make all part of your several. The all you refer to is the all of several not the all of all. - you can make as many Several as you want and have - as long as they match the rest of the criteria.

A Devastator Squad with 6 bolters, and four plasma cannon can make 5 Severals - 1 group with 6 bolters, and four severals of 1 Plasma Cannon each. It can make 2 severals of 3 bolt guns, and 1 several of four plasma cannon. Heck, technically you could roll two dice for each bolter at one at a time, and even THAT is Fast rolling very small groups.

That clause is not permission to create several subgroups when taken in context of the full sentence and paragraph.

It is clear the intention is to allow for the rolling of all dice of a kind at once and it is explicit that you must roll all in that group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First part

Reason
"However, it is possible to
speed up your battles by
rolling the dice for similar
attacks together."

Prerequisite
In order to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit.

Process
If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

The only sentence on process says all

U02dah4 wrote:
That clause is not permission to create several subgroups when taken in context of the full sentence and paragraph.

It is clear the intention is to allow for the rolling of all dice of a kind at once and it is explicit that you must roll all in that group.

No, it isn’t. Just several attacks. No requirement for “all possible bolters” for instance. Group how you like but toll groups all at once.

U02dah4 wrote:
That clause is not permission to create several subgroups when taken in context of the full sentence and paragraph.

It is clear the intention is to allow for the rolling of all dice of a kind at once and it is explicit that you must roll all in that group.

Its clear to you because you want to use this to break the infinite hits thing. It's an admirable goal, But this aint it.. You roll several attacks together. It does not have to be all of a given type. And just like rolling them one at a time, when the attack sequence ends for that group, you start over, and can once again create a group of several - and roll through the attack sequence, and rinse and repeat until you're done.

It doesn't say you can and thus must take ALL of the attacks (that meet the criteria), it says you can take several of the attacks(that meet the crtieria). The Rinse and Repeat nature of the Attack Sequence says you can make several groups if you have enough qualifying attacks.

The prerequisite paragraph does not give permission to subgroup when taken as a whole and not a cherrypick.

In order to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit.

It is mearly telling you the criteria for which a group can be formed.

"In order to make" this tells you its a prerequisite and the rest of the rule will follow

Not "you may make" or "you may group" which would be giving permission


This is followed by

"If this is the case make all ...."

This is the only part of the rulling giving any permission or telling you what to do and its clear if the above case is met all must be rolled.

You have no permission to subgroup nor does it say you may take several attacks or a small group of attacks(unless you take that clause out of context) in which case your changeing its meaning.

Therefore if the prerequisite section is met you must roll all to hit and to wound rolls.

U02dah4 wrote:
The prerequisite paragraph does not give permission to subgroup when taken as a whole and not a cherrypick.

Bold words for someone cherrypicking All.

You must make all rolls for several attacks at once. You don't have to make all attacks part of the same several. As long as it meets the criteria, you could fast roll each model - two bolter shots per, one plasma cannon per "serveral attack" groups.

Im not cherry picking at all im mearly reciteing the whole paragraph in context and pointing out that the only permission or instruction it gives is

If this is the
case, make all of the hit
rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

Which references the earlier prerequisite

In order to make several attacks at
once, all of the attacks must
have the same Ballistic Skill
(if it’s a shooting attack) or
the same Weapon Skill (if
it’s a close combat attack).
They must also have the
same Strength, Armour
Penetration and Damage
characteristics, and they
must be directed at the
same unit.

Which is is neither permission or an instruction to do something.

Its not cherrypicking when i have taken the whole paragraph in context

Taking one clause and ignoreing its context is

U02dah4 wrote:


Taking one clause and ignoreing its context is

You mean like ignoring the fact that several attacks can be less than all? The very first instruction is to take several attacks (that meet the criteria). Not to take all attacks (that meet the criteria). All refers to those several attacks, not the all potential attacks.

You're trying to ignore Several Attacks to make it All Rolls for All Attacks when that's not what it says.

Is this silly argument really necessary? We can all see that there is the absurd reading of the FAQ (I'm really sorry I used that as a argument as two why the additional Hits were not considered to be the same roll ) and what GW probably intended (but failed to convey clearly).