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2019/10/28 20:16:48
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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GW's statement that they will be doing a final review of all FW units for CA2019 wherein they will make final points adjustments and mark any problematic units as 'not recommended for matched play', this will also be happening to Index units.
As we all know 'not recommended for matched play' is shorthand for 'illegal on most tables and any tournament', it amounts to the same thing.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/28 20:17:03
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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 TwinPoleTheory wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:They don't need a reboot codex. They need some slightly stronger traits (that also apply to vehicles) and some points tweaks. All things easily contained within CA if GW has the will to do so. There is no need for 'choose your own chapters' right now.
First of all, saying that's 'all they need' is radically oversimplifying things with no actual data to back up your claim.
They will not be getting an update beyond what crap-fest is included in the upcoming PA. I half expect a reprint of Fabius Bile, or some such other utterly useless pile of gak.
No enhanced Legion traits (they won't get this in CA btw, we'll be paying for a new codex to get this).
No way to deal with deep strike.
No drop pods (our FW units will be going away, or at least marked as 'not balanced for match play' which is the same thing).
No snipers, no way to get snipers.
I'm sorry, but what we got in the codex update was a joke seeing what we've seen over the past few months, a bad joke. VA helped a bit, but you won't be seeing Chaos doing anything anytime soon.
The luckiest we might get is a slow trickle of updates like PA. Eventually we'll get a 2.0 codex and will buy Legion supplements like loyalists. However, it will take at least a year to see something like that, as it will involve updates and refreshes to the model line.
We're screwed for at least the next 12 months, happy to be wrong.
Your Codex is already the 2.0. you're waiting on the 3.0.
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2019/10/28 20:48:20
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TwinPoleTheory wrote:
GW's statement that they will be doing a final review of all FW units for CA2019 wherein they will make final points adjustments and mark any problematic units as 'not recommended for matched play', this will also be happening to Index units.
As we all know 'not recommended for matched play' is shorthand for 'illegal on most tables and any tournament', it amounts to the same thing.
That isn't what they said...at all...
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2019/10/28 21:03:23
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Please illuminate us, what is the precise quote?
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/28 21:04:40
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If that were any sort of 2.0 then renegades would have been in there (they should never have printed it, really).
Vigilus Defiant was Dec 2018. Vigilus Ablaze followed 3 months after. That's a stupid short time line to flesh out changes on the level of the new marine books. It just wasn't happening.
So from December until August was the window when GW began to reshape marines. June was probably the lastest to send books to the printers, which is still 3 months of extra work. GW had models to squeeze into a timeline and I'm just not going to get pissed off that they couldn't fit everything into this ridiculously fast release schedule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
With so much awesome stuff on the way for Warhammer 40,000, you might be wondering what’s happening to some of the treasured older models that previously had rules in our Index books. While these might not have a place in our codexes any more, we know that they definitely have a place in your hearts, which is why you’ll be delighted to hear that we’ll be supporting them FOREVER with Warhammer Legends.
Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered.
Emphasis mine.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/28 21:06:15
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2019/10/28 21:16:49
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Oh good, I'm glad we're talking about the same quote. Do you know what warhammer legends means? Did you read further about what they're planning to do?
LEGENDS will always be supported and will ALWAYS be available for play. However, many of those units will get a final points adjustment in CA2019 and some will be marked as 'not recommended for matched play'. So yes, GW is not removing them from the tournament scene, they're just recommending it strongly, which means this will be the default, the exception will be the tournaments where they are allowed for play. This is also happening to Index units.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/28 23:01:24
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
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Nowhere in that quote is Forgeworld mentioned. It's clear from their examples they're taking about OOP models or profiles that never had an official model. As long as there is a FW 40K section their rules will stay untouched.
And even after that you only have to care in some tournaments.
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2019/10/29 01:48:17
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Oh good, I'm glad we're talking about the same quote. Do you know what warhammer legends means? Did you read further about what they're planning to do?
LEGENDS will always be supported and will ALWAYS be available for play. However, many of those units will get a final points adjustment in CA2019 and some will be marked as 'not recommended for matched play'. So yes, GW is not removing them from the tournament scene, they're just recommending it strongly, which means this will be the default, the exception will be the tournaments where they are allowed for play. This is also happening to Index units.
Yes, you need to read it more closely, because you're creating some issues that don't exist.
It states '*some* of the treasured older models'. Not all index models. No mention FW models. Not likely any model that can currently be purchased. Assassins are Index. Sisters of Silence are index (and are getting their own updated Index soon). Do you think they're going to dump assassins?
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2019/10/29 02:51:35
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Daedalus81 wrote: TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Oh good, I'm glad we're talking about the same quote. Do you know what warhammer legends means? Did you read further about what they're planning to do?
LEGENDS will always be supported and will ALWAYS be available for play. However, many of those units will get a final points adjustment in CA2019 and some will be marked as 'not recommended for matched play'. So yes, GW is not removing them from the tournament scene, they're just recommending it strongly, which means this will be the default, the exception will be the tournaments where they are allowed for play. This is also happening to Index units.
Yes, you need to read it more closely, because you're creating some issues that don't exist.
It states '*some* of the treasured older models'. Not all index models. No mention FW models. Not likely any model that can currently be purchased. Assassins are Index. Sisters of Silence are index (and are getting their own updated Index soon). Do you think they're going to dump assassins?
my bet would be that the biggest legends thing will be legion of the damnned
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/10/29 04:31:09
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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To be honest, GW will do what they want. If they sink FW units, the same people saying they wouldn't wouldn't torpedo FW index units would then support them moth balling those same units.
It's a lose lose discussion. GW won't do something stupid until they do, and then it was a smart decisions they did it get over it is tossed out.
At this point with how GW operates to so out of hand trust in their good judgment is just not a good bet at all.
Sure I wouldn't freak they will moth ball the units yet but I also wouldn't just assume they won't when they've made some real stupid choices before. I mean they still won't be transparent on what their end game for Primaris marines is and if they will squat a whole loved model line long in the making.
Holding that in mind, I'd see every sign they will dunk FW index units as much as OOP regular GW offerings.
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2019/10/29 04:38:46
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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AngryAngel80 wrote:To be honest, GW will do what they want. If they sink FW units, the same people saying they wouldn't wouldn't torpedo FW index units would then support them moth balling those same units.
It's a lose lose discussion. GW won't do something stupid until they do, and then it was a smart decisions they did it get over it is tossed out.
At this point with how GW operates to so out of hand trust in their good judgment is just not a good bet at all.
Sure I wouldn't freak they will moth ball the units yet but I also wouldn't just assume they won't when they've made some real stupid choices before. I mean they still won't be transparent on what their end game for Primaris marines is and if they will squat a whole loved model line long in the making.
Holding that in mind, I'd see every sign they will dunk FW index units as much as OOP regular GW offerings.
truthfully I'd not be too sad to see some forge world stuff moved to legends,legends seems to be a place GW wants to put legacy rules and units that are options avaliable to us but not ones GW really play tests with etc thus they can't promise are 100% balanced. this honestly sums up a lot of forge world stuff Does anyone think GW tests levithan dreads with new marine codices, just for example.
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2019/10/29 06:17:10
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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BrianDavion wrote:AngryAngel80 wrote:To be honest, GW will do what they want. If they sink FW units, the same people saying they wouldn't wouldn't torpedo FW index units would then support them moth balling those same units.
It's a lose lose discussion. GW won't do something stupid until they do, and then it was a smart decisions they did it get over it is tossed out.
At this point with how GW operates to so out of hand trust in their good judgment is just not a good bet at all.
Sure I wouldn't freak they will moth ball the units yet but I also wouldn't just assume they won't when they've made some real stupid choices before. I mean they still won't be transparent on what their end game for Primaris marines is and if they will squat a whole loved model line long in the making.
Holding that in mind, I'd see every sign they will dunk FW index units as much as OOP regular GW offerings.
truthfully I'd not be too sad to see some forge world stuff moved to legends,legends seems to be a place GW wants to put legacy rules and units that are options avaliable to us but not ones GW really play tests with etc thus they can't promise are 100% balanced. this honestly sums up a lot of forge world stuff Does anyone think GW tests levithan dreads with new marine codices, just for example.
Considering the sales numbers of Leviathans or the fact that it existed before, no, but they should have.
But he. That's me.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2019/10/29 15:30:25
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Daedalus81 wrote:It states '*some* of the treasured older models'. Not all index models. No mention FW models. Not likely any model that can currently be purchased. Assassins are Index. Sisters of Silence are index (and are getting their own updated Index soon). Do you think they're going to dump assassins?
You know those FW books are Indices also right? So we agree that 'some of the treasured older models' are getting this treatment, so now we're just quibbling about degrees, glad we cleared that up.
Of course they're not going to dump assassins, or Ynnari, or any of the new Indices, but they state pretty clearly what's happening. But hey, you live in a rosy, happy world, Daed, bless your completely illogical optimism.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/29 15:31:01
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/29 16:07:59
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TwinPoleTheory wrote: Daedalus81 wrote:It states '*some* of the treasured older models'. Not all index models. No mention FW models. Not likely any model that can currently be purchased. Assassins are Index. Sisters of Silence are index (and are getting their own updated Index soon). Do you think they're going to dump assassins?
You know those FW books are Indices also right? So we agree that 'some of the treasured older models' are getting this treatment, so now we're just quibbling about degrees, glad we cleared that up.
Of course they're not going to dump assassins, or Ynnari, or any of the new Indices, but they state pretty clearly what's happening. But hey, you live in a rosy, happy world, Daed, bless your completely illogical optimism.
Really? It isn't my logic that's rubbish, sorry...
You *KNOW* that INDEX Assassins WON'T be touched, but you also *KNOW* FW units WILL be touched. Please enlighten me on that leap of logic. You've casually insinuated the distinction between "old" and "new" indexes, which is defined nowhere in their statement. Why exactly would FW need to be in a "new" index if they're only datasheets and points that get updated by CA? What exactly would a "new" FW index provide?
What exactly would be the benefit of them squatting rules on models they produce? Please, enlighten me.
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2019/10/29 16:29:23
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Daedalus81 wrote:You *KNOW* that INDEX Assassins WON'T be touched, but you also *KNOW* FW units WILL be touched. Please enlighten me on that leap of logic.
Let's see, they definitely qualify as 'older' models, I wouldn't call it a leap, so much as a casual step.
Daedalus81 wrote:You've casually insinuated the distinction between "old" and "new" indexes, which is defined nowhere in their statement. Why exactly would FW need to be in a "new" index if they're only datasheets and points that get updated by CA? What exactly would a "new" FW index provide?
Seriously, you're being obtuse, but just for kicks, I'll clarify, obviously the stuff they've printed this year in White Dwarf (Assassins, Ynnari, SoS/Agents) is not getting retired. Would you like me to provide a more specific demarcation point for that? Do you need a cut-off date?
I'm not sure where you're going with this, they haven't printed a new FW index since release, so call me crazy, but, I don't think we're getting any, which tends to indicate if not a lack of support, definitely a winding down.
Daedalus81 wrote:What exactly would be the benefit of them squatting rules on models they produce? Please, enlighten me.
Who said they're squatting on them? By GW's logic, they're just 'not recommended for matched play', the tournament community will handle the rest. Furthermore, I'm sure they're not retiring everything, they stated 'some'. If I had to guess from the Chaos side, we'll probably lose our various flavors of drop pod, flyers, arch-daemons, and probably a few others, like Hellforged units. But we'll find out in December, like I said, happy to be wrong.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/29 16:55:56
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Seriously, you're being obtuse, but just for kicks, I'll clarify, obviously the stuff they've printed this year in White Dwarf (Assassins, Ynnari, SoS/Agents) is not getting retired.
Why is that obvious? Updated indexes give updated rules. FW indexes don't need updating in that fashion. Why would they need to have a new FW index book (other than to redo the horrible organization), honestly?
Do you imagine that GW operates as this black and white monolith that says anything 'not in an updated index goes to Legends'?
I will be happy for you to be wrong, too, but I also hope that when you see the result you alter your perception of things a bit.
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2019/10/29 20:50:15
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Seriously, this is the obtuse part. I'm sure they're going to print agents next month, the sunset it the month after, gtfoh.
Daedalus81 wrote:Updated indexes give updated rules. FW indexes don't need updating in that fashion.
Really? Not at all? Is that your position, because it's fascinating with all the orphaned rules that aren't carried over anywhere else, I can't possibly imagine why they would get rid of those...
Daedalus81 wrote:Why would they need to have a new FW index book (other than to redo the horrible organization), honestly?
You're right, they don't, and won't, but will eventually have to update tournament rules to account for that abandonment. Also, as mentioned above, all the orphaned rules, the keywords that don't mean anything, etc, etc, etc.
Daedalus81 wrote:Do you imagine that GW operates as this black and white monolith that says anything 'not in an updated index goes to Legends'?
No, that's the position YOU are attributing to me. YOU are reading this in a completely binary manner. I used a word, you might be familiar with it, called 'some'. Check it out.
Daedalus81 wrote:I will be happy for you to be wrong, too, but I also hope that when you see the result you alter your perception of things a bit.
In what manner? That I'll turn the corner and join you in GW apologist land? gtfoh
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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2019/10/29 21:01:35
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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I haven't read the whole thread, but it's crazy that such a simple question as Vigilus or 2.0 couldn't get an answer on the first page. Way to go, GW...
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2019/10/29 22:23:53
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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 godardc wrote:I haven't read the whole thread, but it's crazy that such a simple question as Vigilus or 2.0 couldn't get an answer on the first page. Way to go, GW...
Tbh gw showed how NOT to update a dex with the whole situation perfectly well.
Just annoying for csm Players, beeing once again used as test subjects 
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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2019/10/30 02:33:42
Subject: Vigilus Ablaze or Chaos Space Marine codex 2.0?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I don't consider a rational approach to information apologist, but you do you.
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