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harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
I've always heard part of the high prices is because like about 50% of their expenses is the cost of maintaining the GW stores worldwide. Since while plastic molds are expensive, you still find other companies that also do multipart hard plastic being cheaper than GW, often with having to outsource production to something like Renedra. Although character models are probably an outlier since they aren't sold that much (there's a reason most other companies other than GW do characters in metal/resin still)
DoomMouse wrote: I feel they have core units that they often discount, things like intercessors, tactical marines, terminators that are quite easy to get hold of via discounted bundles in numerous ways.
Yep, this is why I haven't bought anything for Tau in like 8 years, it's always those BLEEPING useless Crisis Suits, Ethereals and Fire Warriors you already have way too many of anyway in those things.
And the only things I want for Tau are the most overpriced, for example there's no reason other than greed a Ghostkeel is 40% more expensive than a flyer or a tank. To hell with that. It's not even that useful for most people on the tabletop. And I live 1500 kilometers from the closest GW store so I'm not paying for them to flush my money down a toilet to keep those useless things running.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/07 17:11:06
This stuff is expensive at this point because they know people will pay at the rates they give to their liking, more or less just that.
it honestly bothers me a fair bit as they keep adding things i don't like to general model designs for their own reasons while also taking the opportunity to further bump up kits. but this is how they make their ability to produce meet maximum value for them.
Wayniac wrote: GW's pricing is one of the great mysteries and follows no apparent pattern. Virtually every other miniature company seems to at least follow a general rule. All infantry of X size costs Y, all vehicles that are roughly the same size cost Z. You find some variations (mostly on single models like characters since they can vary the most) but it's generally standard pricing for types.
With GW it's like this box is X, this other box with fewer models of the same size is Y, this one is inexplicably Z because it's newer than the other two so costs more just because.
It always amused me that on a coupe of boxes circa late 2000s (IIRC) GWdid lower the prices on them as opposed to like-for-like boxes. Those boxes, the Chaos Knights and Cold One Knights regiments. This was apparently an experiment by GW to see if things would sell at that lower price point (the rest of the calvary boxes were about £20 with these being £12 IIRC). Apparently it didn't work, as GW never went to that well again.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I was thinking the other day, about a time when I was into warhammer as a kid. I remember one day, the store in my town had a big clear out. mustve dug out all the crap at the back of the shelves in the stockroom. they chucked it all in a bargain bin and sold it for pennies. it was great. as a 10 year old kid, i could spend my meagre £5 pocket money on some ancient white metal fantasy squire model and a some old copies of white dwarf. You'd never get that nowadays. I thought that they might put some of the old fantasy stuff on reduced prices when AoS came in, but no. its strange, but then retail in general seems more like that these days.
I missed out on the mythical Great Lead Sale, as it was just before my time; but I got in on the ground floor with those 40k and WHFB sales during the change from 2nd to 3rd and 5th to 6th respectively. That sale is the reason I started playing Space Wolves. Went into my local GW wanting to start either DA or SW then I see tables and tables of boxes. Well, I've got my weekly paper round money of £12 and it is burning a hole in my pocket and I pick up Ranger Blackmane and the GH and BC boxes for practically nothing. Thanks GW!
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
catbarf wrote: I think the pricing on Start Collecting and army boxes is a clear example of anchoring. Putting an individual box at $60 sets the perceived value of that kit at $60, and then a $90 SC that includes that kit plus a bunch of other stuff seems like a bargain- even when it's still terribly expensive compared to non-GW miniatures.
Also, now that GW has moved to plastics for everything, kits that are expected to sell in fewer quantities (eg characters) are priced higher so as to more quickly recoup their mold cost. This is why you see $30 characters coming on itty bitty sprues. GW also has some products that are most definitely loss leaders, while others make up for it.
The most important thing to remember is that the actual production cost of a plastic kit- just injection molded plastic and printed paper and cardboard- is negligible, as is transportation and storage. GW's costs are almost purely operational, like wages for their employees and rent for their facilities, which are minimally impacted by volume sale. The primary cost for each new kit introduced is design time plus an up-front cost of ~$50-100k for each injection mold sprue, which then is amortized over time through sales.
From a marketing perspective, this makes GW more similar to a music, film, or videogame company, where the physical product (a CD/DVD in a box) is dirt-cheap to manufacture, and the price is determined more by expected volume of sale at an arbitrary price point. If you analyze their business from this perspective it makes a lot more sense- not to suggest that everyone should be happy with GW's prices, but there is method to the madness.
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
It's far lower these days. I've heard (through Kickstarters) that 10-12k USD for a decent sized mold is doable. GW probably pays more having their own mold making capacity, but saves on the production side of things by cutting out the middleman.
Remember that GW routinely makes promotional minis they either give away (Dark Imperium promotional mini) or sell in VERY low quantities at the same price as character models (store anniversary). The cost of molds has to be fairly low to stomach doing that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/07 20:02:34
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
That's also self-fulfilling, though. Characters, Land Raiders, etc. would probably sell in much greater quantities if they weren't so expensive to begin with. The only reason I picked one up at all, back in 7th, was because I had a hefty gift card to cover most of it. I think it is clear that GW values high margins over volume of sales tremendously (and erroneously).
Is it still 50-100k? I've heard claims that the industry had made significant strides in cost reductions for their plastic molds. It's all hearsay, but it would definitely be a goal with competent 3d printing on the horizon.
It's far lower these days. I've heard (through Kickstarters) that 10-12k USD for a decent sized mold is doable. GW probably pays more having their own mold making capacity, but saves on the production side of things by cutting out the middleman.
Remember that GW routinely makes promotional minis they either give away (Dark Imperium promotional mini) or sell in VERY low quantities at the same price as character models (store anniversary). The cost of molds has to be fairly low to stomach doing that.
The promo minis is something that illustrates just how little GW kits cost to produce. Freebie push-fit tac marines, even limited edition minis sold for $40 can't possibly cost them much to make. How does a box of infantry, a tank, a knight, or a character with continuous availability somehow cost exponentially more?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/07 21:35:26
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
This is illogical and not consistent with how GW manages shelves. When new product comes in older product goes to webstore only. GW literally has no incentive to "punish" a model that isn't selling well. There are also myriad other kits that are useful that had price increases - including Start Collecting boxes.
Ernestas wrote: Edit: If those Bloodcrushers from GW store would have unlimited poses I would be more inclined toward purchasing them, but I can't tell the difference between my plastic sprues and theirs. I also paid for Wrath and Rapture set exactly 88,88 euros. I get Khornish vibes out there! HELP!
You seem like a reasonable man.
There are roughly eight-hundred-quadrillion times more ways to shuffle a deck of cards than atoms on Earth, but after some time solitaire will start feeling samey. My Warmachine models have even more ways how I can arrange them, but that doesn't mean that those combinations are at all meaningful to us. What I had meant is that model should have some creative freedom at how you put details together. This is achieved my making special joints which can be glued at different angles. GW on the other hand decided to create moulds which casts model in more or less random places. This makes it impossible to glue model in any other way than it is intended and every model will look the same. Warmachine on the other hand allows you to do small adjustments in how your arms and weapons are glued. How you decide to glue your legs on. These small things makes me so much happier, because it means that my model is genuinely unique. I put that little bit of personality to each which might be invisible to others, but makes my model distinguishable from any other model even if they would get mixed up with no painting.
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queen_annes_revenge wrote: Pretty soon GW, or at least forge world will be forced to offer pay monthly price plans for their models. You can always look east though.
I saw monthly payment plans for miniature hobbies already. I think it is great idea, but I'm not sure about ForgeWorld. Those plans were for complex projects, you know, like Tiger 2 tank with more than 18,000 individual pieces. So they could just send your model bit by bit as you progress. A lot of that we have is overpriced even if I would be willing to pay those prices.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
Some companies do that, but I do not think that it should apply to GW. They are selling an entire range of miniatures which are interconnected. They are selling you an impression of lively universe and game first. This is a big deal. For example, supermarkets do sell stuff on which they lose money, because they need to create variety. Nobody would want to go to shop which has just bestsellers. If they would have any sense they would not do such silly things and instead would subsidize unpopular models with popular models.
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Big Mac wrote: I had done 2 sets of the new flesh hounds about a month and half ago for commissions; there are no gaps, if anything it’s hid by the way the parts come together. My bet is that you didn’t follow instructions or didn’t clean the mold clippings, most likely glued the head together before attaching to the body, where you’re suppose to attach one half around the tongue, then the other half.
I did glued head once, but I managed to fit it anyways. Though I do follow instructions and I kept clearing the mold despite how annoying it was. Despite that I noticed that on some models miniscule gaps appear, not big enough to be noticed after painting though. Part of this is because that GW models for some reason has strange molds. Some parts are hard to fit in nicely. Especially their plastic glue which is annoying and can easily spill over the edge and keep melting your miniature. They could improve their models greatly by making gluing of a joints by pushing one side beneath another instead of gluing edges. Also, more sensible molds could help. Yesterday I was assembling Infernal Enrapturess and it was everything what I had just said. Some places didn't even had prepared place for gluing. Man's leg for example doesn't have prepared place to glue her leg on. Leg itself is glued to her tight which in reality is incredibly small. It was very unpleasant model to glue and very fragile, difficult to work with.
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catbarf wrote: I think the pricing on Start Collecting and army boxes is a clear example of anchoring. Putting an individual box at $60 sets the perceived value of that kit at $60, and then a $90 SC that includes that kit plus a bunch of other stuff seems like a bargain- even when it's still terribly expensive compared to non-GW miniatures.
Also, now that GW has moved to plastics for everything, kits that are expected to sell in fewer quantities (eg characters) are priced higher so as to more quickly recoup their mold cost. This is why you see $30 characters coming on itty bitty sprues. GW also has some products that are most definitely loss leaders, while others make up for it.
The most important thing to remember is that the actual production cost of a plastic kit- just injection molded plastic and printed paper and cardboard- is negligible, as is transportation and storage. GW's costs are almost purely operational, like wages for their employees and rent for their facilities, which are minimally impacted by volume sale. The primary cost for each new kit introduced is design time plus an up-front cost of ~$50-100k for each injection mold sprue, which then is amortized over time through sales.
From a marketing perspective, this makes GW more similar to a music, film, or videogame company, where the physical product (a CD/DVD in a box) is dirt-cheap to manufacture, and the price is determined more by expected volume of sale at an arbitrary price point. If you analyze their business from this perspective it makes a lot more sense- not to suggest that everyone should be happy with GW's prices, but there is method to the madness.
Thank you for explaining. I'm surprised that molds cost so much. I would think that for low scale production you could get with a lot cheaper mold. Though, I would disagree on pricing. I buy Warmachine, Infinity, I'm interested and in Fire and Sword. Practically everyone has lower quality minis. They have smaller prices too, but not by a massive difference if you compare cost efficiency to those anchoring sets as you put it. Warmachine in particular, you are paying 100 euros for a single unit which is rough equivalent to Lord of War. GW also charges over 100 euros for similar size units, but theirs is just that much nicer to look at. They also tend to have a lot more details than their uninspired robots. That is interesting to me is how historical miniatures can be so cheap by comparison. They cost 200-900 euros, but you get thousands upon thousands of individual parts and level of details are immense.
DoomMouse wrote: I feel they have core units that they often discount, things like intercessors, tactical marines, terminators that are quite easy to get hold of via discounted bundles in numerous ways.
Yep, this is why I haven't bought anything for Tau in like 8 years, it's always those BLEEPING useless Crisis Suits, Ethereals and Fire Warriors you already have way too many of anyway in those things.
And the only things I want for Tau are the most overpriced, for example there's no reason other than greed a Ghostkeel is 40% more expensive than a flyer or a tank. To hell with that. It's not even that useful for most people on the tabletop. And I live 1500 kilometers from the closest GW store so I'm not paying for them to flush my money down a toilet to keep those useless things running.
You should check out ebay from time to time. By looking internationally you can find pretty good deals from time to time. Though, shipping is that killing it most of the time. For example, I had found new, unassembled 9 Bloodcrushers being sold in France right now. I do not want to buy anything more this month, but if I would need those, I would buy it. It is 9 Bloodcrushers for 50 euros +25 euros shipping. If you get lucky, buy something more for combined shipping. On ebay it is always better to go big with same seller.
John Prins wrote: GW prices seem to be driven by volume (low=$$), shelf space required, with a premium tacked on for awesome or currently OP releases. Right now Land Raiders are low volume and take a lot of shelf space, so GW jacked their price to 'justify' wasting shelf space on them.
This is illogical and not consistent with how GW manages shelves. When new product comes in older product goes to webstore only. GW literally has no incentive to "punish" a model that isn't selling well. There are also myriad other kits that are useful that had price increases - including Start Collecting boxes.
Even if it would be true, GW could simply put those unpopular models in various bundles and sell them as some kind of an army reinforcement packs, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for amount of poses, I had figured out a way to allow same level of customization to GW models too, completely by accident. I use plastic glue, a terrible stuff, do not know why GW pushes it. This glue works by melting surface of plastic which contracts with time and becomes solid. So, I had poured enough glue on joint that it became just a mass of sludge. In this sludge after several minutes I had found out that I can shift my arms to considerable degree considering what joint I had to work with. I find that to be just hilarious.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2020/01/08 19:08:54
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
Simply they charge what they think they can get away with. They keep upping the prices because they can get away with it. If sales slow you might see a cap finally. I think $40 for a tiny plastic character is insane when compared to a rhino... but I still buy it anyway.
harlokin wrote: To what extent do the expensive steel moulds that GW use for their plastics affect their likely pricing thought process?
Pretty majorly, I'd have thought. That was always touted as the reason for single characters being comparatively expensive - GW generally expect to sell less of them but the mould costs about the same to make, and they have to recoup that cost.
I do wonder if they couldn't economise by putting multiple character models that were designed at the same time on the same mould and separating them for packaging - e.g. for Drukhari you could, for instance, have a single mould that produces 1 x Archon, 1 x Succubus and 1 x Haemonculus. I'd expect them to all sell at roughly similar levels, and I imagine it'd be cheaper to have a few extra of the less popular model(s) in stock than it would be to make an extra mould so they could be manufactured separately.
Maybe they already do this?
Yeah I don't buy that whole " well reason you don't get new stuff is because of moulds are expensive" if that was the case why the feth can they justify producing several "limited" Space marine LT, Cptains, Chrstmas gobbo, weird dwarf santa thing etc ??
Surely making a new character model for a faction in plastic (like say a necron HQ) and then producing that same sprue for 15 years will give you a much better return than some poxy one season limited edition christams santa…
They are creatively dry or incompetent but not resource/investment capital dry.
@ OP The GW pricing model has been an enigma for years and years... For example Dire Avenger boxes went from a 10 man unit to a 5 man unit and rose in price... The Lizardmen starting box is cheaper then getting a carnosaur on its own pretty much.
Its all about that intitial bargain disount box to make you feel like you are getting a good deal then jacking the price of everything else. Surely if 3rd party retailers can sell at 20-15% just imagine the markup GW gets when selling premium...
FW is a bit of a different animal all together. It seems they do not want to sell you stuff as they stealth delete things without notice. Why not announce stuff going OOP and rake in huge orders from people who want stuff but are riding the fence 2 months in advance? If I knew carmine dragon and magma dragon were going to get removed Id have bit the bullet and bough these kits instead of waiting to buy them in 2 months time and budgeting if I knew it would become unavailable.
Thank god for the second hand market. If it wasn't for that I think I wouldn't hobby.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/09 23:16:16
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eihnlazer wrote: They definitely overprice on some of their models when comparing to others.
Why does a single tyrranid biovore cost as much as a 10 man of troops for example, when you can take 3 biovores in a single unit.
Why did they jack land raider prices up to $75 when they are using basically the same kit they sold for $50 8 years ago? The molds have to be paid off already, and inflation hasn't gone up 50%.
Im completely fine with the mentality of "If they pay for it, we priced it right", but arbitrary price jacks do not seem like the best way to grow your market.
I sometimes have a feeling that GW is whale hunting as it is described in the Gaming industy.
And parade exemples are new models / HQ.
Exception wierdly enough a recentish one was the adversaries from BSF, which were extremely cheap. But it is the only one in recent times beyond the bundles.
They are.
They've done an excellent job using social media and marketing to convince the community that they "changed." They haven't.
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Keramory wrote: Simply they charge what they think they can get away with. They keep upping the prices because they can get away with it. If sales slow you might see a cap finally. I think $40 for a tiny plastic character is insane when compared to a rhino... but I still buy it anyway.
Stop. You buy it anyways and they just become encouraged.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/10 02:32:48
Well, it depends on what you consider a bad deal or being tricked. I bought all those big boxes form GW and I'm very happy with my purchases. You get 10-20% discount depending from where you purchase and free shipping. I got Soul Wars for 112 euros. That is 52 models, bunch of accessories and core rule book. That is little more than 2 euros per model. I consider it to be a great price. In same manner, Dark Imperium set has identical value. Wrath and Rapture is more expensive set, but it still clocks amazing less than 3 euros per model value. If you would take a loot to third party producers, you won't find anything cheaper. GW might be producing their models from cheap plastic which is just bad, but they still come with a lot of details and great esthetic. Third party producers often are hit and miss. Even then, raging heroes ask for more than 10 euros per their resin model. Any other producer will ask around 8 euros per their model. If we talking plastic or metal, it isn't much better. Infinity models are rather uninspired and bland for the most part. Warmachine plastic costs same amount, but their quality is garbage by comparison. They have some hits, but especially their individual heroes often tend to come in quite bad shape and they expect 12-18 euros per single model which has zero complexity. It is like 2-3 part model...
I do not have problem with prices that GW asks for, that I'm bothered is utterly nonsensical deals on some models and generally erratic pricing policy. When you expect models to be expensive, they are well priced by GW standards. When you check out random model, they have insane price for what they are.
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
Third party producers often are hit and miss. Even then, raging heroes ask for more than 10 euros per their resin model. Any other producer will ask around 8 euros per their model.
That explains a lot. Recasts here cost a lot less then 10 euro per model.
Plus the cost per model isn't as important as in how much the army costs. If a model costs even 5 euro per model, but you need 20 of them, it is way different then when a box of 10 models costing 60 euro, but you need 90+ models and some of them cost 100 euro on their own.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
For example, I want to get some historical wargaming miniatures. For a starter army I'm looking paying around 67 euros for 72 models. These are the cheapest wargaming options, but you are paying for 15 mm scale models which are pretty much worthless on their own. Only useful in great quantities for mass battles. For 8 Winged Hussars I need to pay over 30 euros. A single model costs around 5 euros, more or less. Bundles usually come as 2 euros per piece in value. I was looking at a lot of third party suppliers, it is about the same everywhere and GW is in an upper end of a spectrum in regards to their pricing. That really gets them is their inconsistent pricing. Some models are reasonably priced, some are not. Though, with GW products you know that they are all good looking as a rule of thumb. When you have third party suppliers, they have a lot of duds among their sculpts. Other problem is that they present online a lot greater level of detail while in reality quality of their products are a lot lower. A good example is Warmachine. They are selling warcasters for 10-20 euros, but their quality often is questionable.
Here is review of third party Fate Weaver:
While it looks good and it is viable alternative to a lot more expensive (real price of greater demons from GW are under 100 euros. This one costs 35 euros) FateWeaver from GW. I still say that GW FateWeaver looks a lot better overall. His kit is also a lot bigger by comparison though amount of parts does not indicate quality. In this case I would always pay more and go for GW product, because even if it is more expensive, it is of better quality. Third party retailers like this are great in providing stuff which GW does not provide for your tastes. It also helps a lot by giving you options. I for example despise GW Slaanesh model line. Practically anything from third party is a lot better. It is god sent to have options like lust elves out there to supplement or to replace your models.
Say what you want about GW prices, but production seems to be at capacity and new product consistently sells out on release. Any time making old stock could have been making newer product (which demonstrably sells faster, so in that way is more profitable).
Seeing as production is maxed out (the factory is almost constantly running) and sales are maxed out I have to say we might be lucky GW doesn’t charge more than they already do!
For me the real point of interest will be what happens when GW’s new premises opens up. It is in part a factory expansion, right? Maybe they’ll be able to produce more units than can be sold at current prices, meaning some kind of moratorium on price raises in the future or a way to cheaply produce old kits without stepping on the toes of new??
I would say that it holds true for their newest, most in demand items. They always have shortages for those and then several more mundane models gets unexpectedly too popular and they run out. Miniatures are an interesting business, demand of practically anything they produce is very high until everybody has their desired model. Then demand is very low. You lose money for making a new model, but not for making more of a same. This is where I have beef with GW. Why make old models which still maintain similar level of quality obsolete? Just print massive amounts of those models, put them in storage and shut down machine which makes those models. Here, solution to all our problems. Old models will be sold out of stocks which costs them very little to make and they will be free to make new ones. Now they just decide to cut randomly whatever they do not like without bothering to produce any more miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 10:00:57
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
The point about character costs being down to the moulds seems odd to me. If we look at the primaris ones, they are (i think) less than half the size of a full sprue size (i.e. the big multi-troop ones), so if their machines have standard sized moulds you should be able to get two character sprues out of each fullsize mould.
then most of the primaris troop boxes come with two separate, different sprues, i.e. you could get 4 character units from the same amount of moulds as one unit of intecessors or aggressors, yet we're talking £90 vs £30-35 for them. maybe their setup makes splitting the sprues from one mould into two different boxes hard, but that doesn't seem like it could be that hard a fix
The thing is, for GW to produce this stuff costs next to nothing. We are talking about cents here when everything is set up. In the end, they eat design cost for a new unit and then decide how they should price it. What people would be happy to pay for this model. This is how they can produce a lot of models like blue horrors very cheaply while they sell individual characters over 20 euros.
While amount of sprues usually mean how expensive this model was to make, when they are making and selling them, all that matters is how they can price them. Individual heroes and units will have a lot lower sell volume. For example, how often do you see Skulltaker model? Slaughterpriest? Scyla Anfingrimm? Now, how often you see Primaris Space marines? See, this is why some units have to cost more. You essentially have similar costs to manufacture both. You need several people to come up with design, 3D models. Then you need to order that exact mold. One model will sell 1 copy for every 100 copies of most popular and basic unit. That 1 unpopular model has to cover its own cost and pay it back to be a worthwhile effort. This is why you see such inconsistency in how much each plastic sprue is worth. It is a lot easier to sell a lot of plastic for a low price when demand is low like horde units while individual units will always have low demand, thus price is high.
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores, I understand in the UK it might make sense but in the US it is not only a waste of money but a direct competition with the FLGS that also sells the product AND in many cases does more to support the hobby through tournaments, etc and is way better advertising...only GW customers ever walk into a GW store, but a local store is going to have everything from die-hard Magic players to board gamers and model airplane builders visiting, walking right by a wall of prime GW advertising. And online sales work just fine for most people.
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits. They sell their product like a luxury item, which limits it's broader appeal. There is a price point at which a given customer suddenly is more likely to buy your product, and other companies do a fair bit of research to figure out exactly where that is.But even within the current customer base there are examples, like the Caladius Grav-Tank. You could buy them from FW for $138, or from a recaster for $50, and that was low enough that tons of people said "screw it I'll spend $150 on a winning 630 pt bolt-on to my army" and that was with BETA RULES, not even the finalized version. So if the price is low enough, you enable meta-chasing and can profit from changing rules.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Ernestas wrote: I would say that it holds true for their newest, most in demand items. They always have shortages for those and then several more mundane models gets unexpectedly too popular and they run out. Miniatures are an interesting business, demand of practically anything they produce is very high until everybody has their desired model. Then demand is very low. You lose money for making a new model, but not for making more of a same. This is where I have beef with GW. Why make old models which still maintain similar level of quality obsolete? Just print massive amounts of those models, put them in storage and shut down machine which makes those models. Here, solution to all our problems. Old models will be sold out of stocks which costs them very little to make and they will be free to make new ones. Now they just decide to cut randomly whatever they do not like without bothering to produce any more miniatures.
You have no idea how much warehouse space costs, do you? Boxes of miniatures are bulky, so storing them long term is a big expense. Sure, you could run off 10000 boxes of Intercessors for the long run, but that probably eats 100 cubic meters of warehouse space at X dollars/pounds a month. If they don't sell as fast as you thought, you end up losing money rather than making a profit. Far better to run 1000-2000 at a time and reprint them when supplies run low in a year's time. GW probably has this figured out by now and only strange things like codex creep turning old units super good throws them off and runs them out of stock of particular product, all on MINIMUM possible print runs.
nareik wrote:Greyknight how do you propose making more models to ‘sell in volume’ when their factory is already running at capacity practically 24/7?
GW's factory is at capacity because they neglected to invest in their own capabilities for too long. This is their problem. When the addition opens, will we see prices drop as their production volume increases? Lower prices would mean even greater demand. If GW were unable or unwilling to further expand production to capitalize on that, that is their fault.
Ernestas wrote:The thing is, for GW to produce this stuff costs next to nothing. We are talking about cents here when everything is set up. In the end, they eat design cost for a new unit and then decide how they should price it. What people would be happy to pay for this model. This is how they can produce a lot of models like blue horrors very cheaply while they sell individual characters over 20 euros.
While amount of sprues usually mean how expensive this model was to make, when they are making and selling them, all that matters is how they can price them. Individual heroes and units will have a lot lower sell volume. For example, how often do you see Skulltaker model? Slaughterpriest? Scyla Anfingrimm? Now, how often you see Primaris Space marines? See, this is why some units have to cost more. You essentially have similar costs to manufacture both. You need several people to come up with design, 3D models. Then you need to order that exact mold. One model will sell 1 copy for every 100 copies of most popular and basic unit. That 1 unpopular model has to cover its own cost and pay it back to be a worthwhile effort. This is why you see such inconsistency in how much each plastic sprue is worth. It is a lot easier to sell a lot of plastic for a low price when demand is low like horde units while individual units will always have low demand, thus price is high.
Character models sell at a lower volume because of the pricing. Were they cheaper, people would buy more not only to play GW games with but to convert, use in RPGs, and so on.
greyknight12 wrote: Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores,
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits.
GW's brick and mortar stores have a huge advantage over most independent retailers - they hang around in the long term. There are a handful of gaming stores that last more than a few years in any market. Most shut down in 3-5 years, it's a HARD business model. In a lot of regions GW is the only retail presence that actually bothers having tables/terrain for wargaming, not to mention staff that actually know how to model/paint as opposed to a hybrid comic/wargaming/roleplaying game/anime store.
As to point #2, there's no reason for GW to buy into that idea. They're selling at capacity and despite what people might think, it's not a truly expensive hobby, it's a middle class income or single-person-with-disposable-income hobby.
Ernestas wrote: For example, I want to get some historical wargaming miniatures. For a starter army I'm looking paying around 67 euros for 72 models. These are the cheapest wargaming options, but you are paying for 15 mm scale models which are pretty much worthless on their own. Only useful in great quantities for mass battles. For 8 Winged Hussars I need to pay over 30 euros. A single model costs around 5 euros, more or less. Bundles usually come as 2 euros per piece in value. I was looking at a lot of third party suppliers, it is about the same everywhere and GW is in an upper end of a spectrum in regards to their pricing. That really gets them is their inconsistent pricing. Some models are reasonably priced, some are not. Though, with GW products you know that they are all good looking as a rule of thumb. When you have third party suppliers, they have a lot of duds among their sculpts. Other problem is that they present online a lot greater level of detail while in reality quality of their products are a lot lower. A good example is Warmachine. They are selling warcasters for 10-20 euros, but their quality often is questionable.
Here is review of third party Fate Weaver:
While it looks good and it is viable alternative to a lot more expensive (real price of greater demons from GW are under 100 euros. This one costs 35 euros) FateWeaver from GW. I still say that GW FateWeaver looks a lot better overall. His kit is also a lot bigger by comparison though amount of parts does not indicate quality. In this case I would always pay more and go for GW product, because even if it is more expensive, it is of better quality. Third party retailers like this are great in providing stuff which GW does not provide for your tastes. It also helps a lot by giving you options. I for example despise GW Slaanesh model line. Practically anything from third party is a lot better. It is god sent to have options like lust elves out there to supplement or to replace your models.
I do not know why, but GW really missed mark with a lot of their demons. Especially Slaanesh.
The official GW greater demons are better in your opinion. I find them too large, and much too busy. Aside from the Great Unclean One, which is a lovely sculpt I would enjoy painting and finding a gaming use for were it not so stupidly priced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 18:41:27
GW stores are far more than just selling product. Granted the UK might be a cut above many other regions that seem to vary somewhat; but they are hobby stores not just sales stores.
GW staff (again in the UK) are not just there to push models, but teach how to build, paint, convert, play. They organise play evenings and focus on selling GW product above all else. Considering that the general view from many 3rd party stores is that wargames are nice, but MTG or Yugio or other card games are not only cheaper to buy into; but generate far more profit in general means that without a hobby store owner who WANTS to sell wargames; the wargame scene could suffer (at the very least in GW's eyes).
For GW those hobby stores are a fantastic resource. Heck for the USA my impression is that many regions don't have hobby clubs and that the majority play either at home (one or two friends) or in the shop. So that's even more argument to have a GW store on the highstreet that is supplying hobby and model resources and also space to play.
GW certainly pays a heavy price for the stores, but at the same time you can't deny that they serve a major point for helping keep GW on the radar as the market leader. If other companies could open their own stores like GW you can bet many would love to be able to directly engage, market and recruit; most other companies have to rely heavily on community representative initiatives. And we've all seen the massive nosedive that warmachine/Hordes took when they had to get rid of theirs (noting that it was not the only thing, but it certainly made a serious contribution).
greyknight12 wrote: Two thoughts:
#1: GW should absolutely close most (if not all) of their brick and mortar stores,
#2: GW hasn't yet bought onto the idea that lower prices increase sales volume and in turn, profits.
GW's brick and mortar stores have a huge advantage over most independent retailers - they hang around in the long term. There are a handful of gaming stores that last more than a few years in any market. Most shut down in 3-5 years, it's a HARD business model. In a lot of regions GW is the only retail presence that actually bothers having tables/terrain for wargaming, not to mention staff that actually know how to model/paint as opposed to a hybrid comic/wargaming/roleplaying game/anime store.
As to point #2, there's no reason for GW to buy into that idea. They're selling at capacity and despite what people might think, it's not a truly expensive hobby, it's a middle class income or single-person-with-disposable-income hobby.
#1 Yes, they do have a huge advantage, which is why myself and others would prefer they disappear, so small local businesses can flourish, which lowering prices.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
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Overread wrote: GW stores are far more than just selling product. Granted the UK might be a cut above many other regions that seem to vary somewhat; but they are hobby stores not just sales stores.
GW staff (again in the UK) are not just there to push models, but teach how to build, paint, convert, play. They organise play evenings and focus on selling GW product above all else. Considering that the general view from many 3rd party stores is that wargames are nice, but MTG or Yugio or other card games are not only cheaper to buy into; but generate far more profit in general means that without a hobby store owner who WANTS to sell wargames; the wargame scene could suffer (at the very least in GW's eyes).
For GW those hobby stores are a fantastic resource. Heck for the USA my impression is that many regions don't have hobby clubs and that the majority play either at home (one or two friends) or in the shop. So that's even more argument to have a GW store on the highstreet that is supplying hobby and model resources and also space to play.
GW certainly pays a heavy price for the stores, but at the same time you can't deny that they serve a major point for helping keep GW on the radar as the market leader. If other companies could open their own stores like GW you can bet many would love to be able to directly engage, market and recruit; most other companies have to rely heavily on community representative initiatives. And we've all seen the massive nosedive that warmachine/Hordes took when they had to get rid of theirs (noting that it was not the only thing, but it certainly made a serious contribution).
That's just it, though. GW doesn't pay the price for their "hobby centers." We do. Through high prices, and watching indie shops close.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/14 18:47:52
Considering most independent stores charge less than an official GW store for the same product and an indie store can stock WAY more ranges of stuff outside of GW products - I'd wager GW isn't running many indie shops out of business that weren't already on the rocks.
Also lowering prices might not happen as you think; if GW closed stores and now only sold through 3rd parties then whilst, in theory, GW hasn't got to pay for its own stores upkeep, it has to compete with ALL the other brands. IT might make for lower prices; esp as GW slashes their 800+ product lineup down in size to make it fit into cluttered competitive stores.
Or GW wouldn't lower prices because everything would go direct order only, coupled toa reduction (over time) in the fanbase because of increased competition from the 3rd party stores not pushing GW products on their own. Heck a 3rd party might well push other wargames or other product lines entirely based on what makes the most profit/what interests the store keeper.
#2 It is very much an expensive hobby, if you look past total dollars spent and examine the value for your dollar. GW games are atrocious value.
It's easily affordable by anyone making a living wage. You can talk about nebulous 'value' all you want, but people pay hundreds of dollars to go to sports venues for a couple hours of entertainment. Same with a music concert. A single night at the bar can go through a hundred bucks pretty easily. People throw their money away on tobacco all the time. I do none of these things because they don't represent 'value' to me either. I do get a lot of enjoyment from building and painting miniatures that I like. Games Workshop is the elephant in the room - it's the easiest to get in a game of 40k or AoS than anything else, and that's how they get away with the increased price compared to the rest of the market. I could buy lots of miniatures from cheaper alternatives like Mantic (and, in fact, I have), but my chances of actually playing those games is pretty low, so their 'value' is far lower, especially when I have to deal with inferior materials (like Mantic's restic, bleurgh).
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of instances where GW has priced me out of stuff - especially single plastic HQ models - with their wonky pricing, but with Start Collecting and Battleforce Boxes I've managed to build armies at reasonable prices so that the odd big kit doesn't really bother me, and I'm not making big bucks, I'm well below average household income in my region.
Eldar- 4436 pts
