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 Tiennos wrote:
The difference in strength between boys and girls only appears at puberty, though. If neophyte are about 10 years old when they're selected and get their first implants, gender shouldn't make much of a difference. From then, growth is controlled by the hormone implants, so the natural difference in size and muscle would be overriden by all the space steroids.

Assuming it was all possible, in the end female space marines would logically be the same as male space marines: massive piles of muscles with superhuman reflexes and freaky organs. Hypnotherapy and indoctrination means they wouldn't be feminine either, they'd just think like marines. It'd be hard to tell the difference without looking at the plumbing.

Male/female performance gap exists pre-puberty- puberty just widens the gap. There is a pre-existing gap in bone size and the difference in brain size and aptitude (Visual spatial/ emotional expression) exist at all ages.
You're right in the sense that the Astartes organs are essentially a super male puberty- having such a profound influence that visually, you might never know a female marine who had her robe on (unless she was generally shorter).
The issue is whether that makes up for the fact that females would be an inferior subject for Astartes generally, such that their passing the tests over male applicants would be astonishingly rare.

A pop culture example is the Captain America movie. Dr. Abraham Erskine puts Rogers in the supersoldier project because he is morally upstanding and more courageous than Hodge, the big musclehead.

Col. Chester Phillips : Then throw me a bone. Hodge passed every test we gave him. He's big, he's fast, he obeys orders - he's a soldier.

Abraham Erskine : He's a bully.

Col. Chester Phillips : You don't win wars with niceness, doctor. You win wars with guts.

In 40k, Rogers would not have a kind hearted man to wave him past physical tests and Hodge would be Captain America. Moreover, because he was a big musclebound guy to start with, he'd be LIEFELD Cap- far bigger than Rogers ever was.

Then he'd have fear hypno-indoctrinated out of him so he could go do genocides.

Yes, there's a difference in the average, but selection doesn't look for average values, it looks for exceptional values. Look at your graph: at the 11 year mark, the top measurement is for a female. If that was the criteria for getting space marinated, that one girl would have passed. It's clear that making female marines would not double the recruitment pool since most girls couldn't compete, but it would still increase it. So not 50% lady marines, but maybe 10% or so?

On another note, the idea that space marine chapters basically put a bunch of children through the meat grinder to see what comes out might be one of the darkest piece of lore and somehow it's rarely mentioned when people talk about how fethed up the Imperium is... I guess people are okay with child soldiers as long as they look cool?

 Tiennos wrote:
Yes, there's a difference in the average, but selection doesn't look for average values, it looks for exceptional values. Look at your graph: at the 11 year mark, the top measurement is for a female. If that was the criteria for getting space marinated, that one girl would have passed. It's clear that making female marines would not double the recruitment pool since most girls couldn't compete, but it would still increase it.

Some numbers from heresy era recruitment. Felix is one of 16 boys out of 15,000 who made the Astartes grade. That's a rough one in a thousand or top 0.1%

The grip strength gap is based on about 5000 (non athletic) people of each sex divided into 19 studies over about 43 years. The study of girls that produced the anomalous average female result didn't repeat anywhere else: the data points are all lower. Over a larger sample (15,000) measured together, anomalies like this would be less common.

So not 50% lady marines, but maybe 10% or so?

As unlikely as 10% is, it would still never satisfy those who want female marines for political reasons. If pressure can have GW retcon the hard limit on their goal (what geneseed is reportedly capable of) soft limits like human biology can be handwaved with a new geneseed that ignores existing genetic suitability. A geneseed that can compensate for the difference between a man and a woman could conceivably compensate for the difference between Max Olympus and Tiny McNoodle-arms.

On another note, the idea that space marine chapters basically put a bunch of children through the meat grinder to see what comes out might be one of the darkest piece of lore and somehow it's rarely mentioned when people talk about how fethed up the Imperium is... I guess people are okay with child soldiers as long as they look cool?

It's pretty dark, but most schools we have now are the descendants of those preparing them for factory work. People want to prepare kids for the world that exists, no matter how soul crushing it is.
A life as an emotionally stunted super soldier shooting aliens on some distant rock may be preferable to life as an assembly line or office drone to many today- in the universe of 40k, where the commoners are effectively slaves, this is amplified.

Yearly intake at the occluda scholum was fifteen thousand boys. Some of them would die there, for though the regime took care of its charges, the curriculum was hard, and the boys were pushed to the limits of their capabilities. Of the thousands that graduated every year, most could look forward to positions of responsibility in Ultramar. Generals of the Ultramarian Auxilia, civilian administrators of the highest grade, diplomats and ambassadors, some of whom might even one day tread the poisoned soils of Terra, engineers, governors, judges, economists, cardinals, and potentates of every degree. Up to twenty from that weighty cohort might, just might, make it into the Ultramarines Space Marine Legion.

 =Angel= wrote:
A geneseed that can compensate for the difference between a man and a woman could conceivably compensate for the difference between Max Olympus and Tiny McNoodle-arms.

Compensating for mortal beginnings is what geneseed does. The Blood Angels recruit radiation-stunted nomads which still turn out as Astartes with no discernible ill effect from not having been the healthiest or strongest possible. The weakest and strongest genetically compatible boy will both become marines so close in physical ability that no one can tell the difference.

Some rare outlier might become larger than his peers, but that's a failure of the Apothecaries - massproduced shock troops shouldn't be allowed to deviate so much that one needs custom gear.

Spetulhu wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
A geneseed that can compensate for the difference between a man and a woman could conceivably compensate for the difference between Max Olympus and Tiny McNoodle-arms.

Compensating for mortal beginnings is what geneseed does. The Blood Angels recruit radiation-stunted nomads which still turn out as Astartes with no discernible ill effect from not having been the healthiest or strongest possible. The weakest and strongest genetically compatible boy will both become marines so close in physical ability that no one can tell the difference.

Some rare outlier might become larger than his peers, but that's a failure of the Apothecaries - massproduced shock troops shouldn't be allowed to deviate so much that one needs custom gear.

Yeah this is always my example in these arguments. Bell curves of muscle strength or % ratios of champion athletes don't mean anything when the entire stock of blood angels are shrivelled irradiated warboys. Their geneseed turns them all, without exception into adonis's. It radically changes them in a way not even the space wolf geneseed does. Ergo, it wouldn't matter what a woman's physical abilities are when you have magic gene juice that makes you amazing regardless of the starting point.

Fact is, even today you can swap organs between men and women. So the idea that the organs aren't compatible is a highly contrived one. It would be just as challenging to get an organ into a man as a woman. And as they are engineered organs, they would designed to be as immune friendly as possible to reduce the chances of rejection. That would mean stripping out as many reactive surface proteins as possible so immune cells don't react. There'd be no need to put x or y chromosomes inside a wholely artificually constructed organ. You'd only put what genes you needed in there. Remembering that women produce testosterone naturally without testes. It's not a Y chromosome product.

The biology of bodies with x and y chromosomes are more similar than different. The tissues are almost identical (as XX cells inactivate one X at random as Barr Bodies, they have the same number of x chromosomes active and transcribing as a man does, They just lack the few genes the Y has) and this why it's possible to perform complete and effective sex reassignment using hormones.

It's also why boys with androgen insensitivity syndrome are still able to have their tissues 'masculininsed' and grow muscle once they are exposed to high enough doses of androgens.


As I said previously, it's actually HARDER to deliberately exclude women from the augmentation process (as in, create things that aren't compatible) than it is to create compatibility.

Every chapter has its own method of recruiting and selecting, so it's impossible to make generalizations anyways. Depending on what kind of testing they do, the hypothetical male/female distribution would be very different. If some random chapter tests its applicant by doing something silly like seeing who can reach their fortress-monastery that's on an island surrounded by shark-infested waters, the kids who'd pass would be the ones best at not looking like a seal...

In the end, I feel a retcon to allow female space marines would be disappointing anyways: after the geneseed is done with them, they'd be "brothers" just like the males. I doubt they would identify as female at that point. Technically, making everyone into a neuter is gender equality, but I don't think it's what people who want femarines are hoping for.

Some numbers from heresy era recruitment. Felix is one of 16 boys out of 15,000 who made the Astartes grade. That's a rough one in a thousand or top 0.1%

The grip strength gap is based on about 5000 (non athletic) people of each sex divided into 19 studies over about 43 years. The study of girls that produced the anomalous average female result didn't repeat anywhere else: the data points are all lower. Over a larger sample (15,000) measured together, anomalies like this would be less common.

So roughly one in a thousand makes it to Space Marine. So let's say a civilized world with 8 billion inhabitants wants a lot of Astartes. Let's assume their armed forces consists of three percent of their population. This is including PDF, Guard, etc... That is 240 million. A thousandth of that is 240000. Nearly the size of Ultramarines Legion at their largest.

Spetulhu wrote:
The Blood Angels recruit radiation-stunted nomads which still turn out as Astartes with no discernible ill effect from not having been the healthiest or strongest possible. The weakest and strongest genetically compatible boy will both become marines so close in physical ability that no one can tell the difference.

Yes, the Blood Angels recruit from genetically pureblood survivors of a post apocalyptic hellscape filled with mutants, monsters and radiation. The strongest have survived and all else being equal, the general trends in human performance should still hold true. Unless of course, one gender was particularly vulnerable to radiation...

If you look at the risk of ionizing radiation exposure to women of all ages averaged together compared to the risk to men of all ages averaged together, you will find that the risk of incidence of cancers of all types and serious health impacts are somewhat higher for the women than for the men, with the overall lethality risk for women being approximately 35% greater than that for men (based on data in Table A4.1.9 of International Commission on Radiological Protection [ICRP] Publication 103, ICRP, 2007).

The geneseed works with existing genetics, not body state. Malnourishment, sickness, all the privations of radworlds and deathworlds and even primitive/feudal worlds that weed out the weaker humans don't change the genetic structure of the prepubescent survivors. The trials, including the very worlds from which the Astartes recruit are to weed out those genetically unsuitable through strength of arms.

If a Catachan girl was brought to Baal to participate in the trials, she might well clean up against the stunted malnourished boys. But consider that Sanguinius did nothing to improve the people of Baal's life long term. He allowed the planet that had taken him in to remain a horrible radioactive wasteland with deadly monsters and mutants- so that his legion would have good recruitment stock, tried and tested by a hard life shooting muties and surviving the wastes.

 =Angel= wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Blood Angels recruit radiation-stunted nomads which still turn out as Astartes with no discernible ill effect from not having been the healthiest or strongest possible. The weakest and strongest genetically compatible boy will both become marines so close in physical ability that no one can tell the difference.

Yes, the Blood Angels recruit from genetically pureblood survivors of a post apocalyptic hellscape filled with mutants, monsters and radiation. The strongest have survived and all else being equal, the general trends in human performance should still hold true. Unless of course, one gender was particularly vulnerable to radiation...

If you look at the risk of ionizing radiation exposure to women of all ages averaged together compared to the risk to men of all ages averaged together, you will find that the risk of incidence of cancers of all types and serious health impacts are somewhat higher for the women than for the men, with the overall lethality risk for women being approximately 35% greater than that for men (based on data in Table A4.1.9 of International Commission on Radiological Protection [ICRP] Publication 103, ICRP, 2007).

The geneseed works with existing genetics, not body state. Malnourishment, sickness, all the privations of radworlds and deathworlds and even primitive/feudal worlds that weed out the weaker humans don't change the genetic structure of the prepubescent survivors. The trials, including the very worlds from which the Astartes recruit are to weed out those genetically unsuitable through strength of arms.

If a Catachan girl was brought to Baal to participate in the trials, she might well clean up against the stunted malnourished boys. But consider that Sanguinius did nothing to improve the people of Baal's life long term. He allowed the planet that had taken him in to remain a horrible radioactive wasteland with deadly monsters and mutants- so that his legion would have good recruitment stock, tried and tested by a hard life shooting muties and surviving the wastes.

If we're going to get actual science involved, then I don't see how genetic compatibility with one chapter's geneseed translates into "being strong." Why would the guy with the most muscle be the one who has the least chance to reject the implants? Did the Emperor set it up this way?
I mean, I can understand it from a story/flavor perspective: you select the best of the best to turn them into super-soldiers. That makes sense, but from a scientific perspective? Survival of the fittest doesn't select the strongest people, it selects the ones best at surviving. There's plenty of ways to survive a dangerous environment that don't involve being swole. Hiding, running, fast breeding, strength in numbers, etc...

If these trials are meant to select the most healthy specimen, then picking people from a radioactive wasteland is the opposite of what should be done.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

Some numbers from heresy era recruitment. Felix is one of 16 boys out of 15,000 who made the Astartes grade. That's a rough one in a thousand or top 0.1%

The grip strength gap is based on about 5000 (non athletic) people of each sex divided into 19 studies over about 43 years. The study of girls that produced the anomalous average female result didn't repeat anywhere else: the data points are all lower. Over a larger sample (15,000) measured together, anomalies like this would be less common.

So roughly one in a thousand makes it to Space Marine. So let's say a civilized world with 8 billion inhabitants wants a lot of Astartes. Let's assume their armed forces consists of three percent of their population. This is including PDF, Guard, etc... That is 240 million. A thousandth of that is 240000. Nearly the size of Ultramarines Legion at their largest.

Sure. So you skim those off when prepubescent? You stasis them so they don't get older? Then you do the gene tests to ensure compatibility.
Does this world produce ships? Power armour? Boltguns? Where does the geneseed come from?

Let's assume the Highlords and Gulliman are involved in this. Lets assume they are making 240 chapters in a single founding. They contract 100 Forgeworlds to make the weapons ships and armour needed. Over 50 years, each forge world needs to produce 24 cruiser class vessels and a bunch of light escorts, 2400 suits of power armour and 2400 boltguns, boltpistols, plus heavy weapons, plus ammunition, plus chainswords, bayonets etc. Perhaps the recruiting planet can help produce some of this.

The Mechanicus also provide facilities and the manpower to ferry youths into orbit to process 240k kids into marines. They have farmed 240 geneseed pairs for 50 years to get the numbers necessary.
You either allow the officers to come from the recruits- further aptitude tests or you ask for existing chapters to donate an officer cadre. The highlords give training to the officers and mechanicus gives training to the techmarines while the rest are in stasis.

Ship crew and Auxiliaries-You have the kids who didn't pass the grade to become Astartes. For every marine there's armour serfs, a bunch of ship crew, armoury workers who maintain the equipment under the techmarine.
For 240k ships you'd need upwards of 20 million crew plus servitors. The navy has to give the ship crew training and the mechanicus has to pump out servitors from those who failed the training.
Mechanicus has to give lay training to the armourers and maintenace staff.

So 50 years later, you have your geneseed , aspirants and you have 2400+ marine captains and techmarines trained. Maybe you found a few psykers in your in recruitment and they got fast tracked to marines too. Over the next 4 years you implant all the geneseed organs in the aspirants and have full, proper marines at the end. You hypo-indoctrinate all the aspirants as they mature so they have the knowledge they need and you drill them day and night for 4 years firing their bolters and other weapons.

You'll need to pay the mechanicus, either in materials, worlds/expansion rights or oaths. You will have invested a lot of navy assets and Imperial assets in non combat scenarios and tied up a sizeable proportion of 100 Forgeworlds production capacity for 50 years.
You would have to have balanced local needs with the production of 240 chapters, and existing wars or chapters may have claim on the Forgeworlds in question. If battlescarred Black Templars call to your templum and demand two of the new cruisers to replace vessels lost defeating a massive chaos incursion, are you going to quibble with the ancient scroll they produce?

The point is that it's never just one world, no matter how large producing a crusades worth of marines. The great crusade required the combined efforts of Terra, Mars, the Saturnine ship yards and the various other solar colonies to produce the legions- under the direction supervision of the God Emperor himself. Necromunda, an advanced industrial world of many many billions, with orbital docks and actual ties to the Imperial fists, could not simply start churning out marines and the equipment required without a vast network of support from imperial organisations and worlds.