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If I could change one thing it'd be the bizzare "We won't mention them" approuch with the 2 lost primarchs. GW should have just detailed who they where and what happened to them, the dancing around them in the HH books is sometimes outright silly

There are numerous sci-fi settings with psychic abilities, extradimemsional beings, and incoporeal entities of godlike power.

Heck, you can find all those in Star Trek.

I've never really seen Star Trek so I can't comment on that.

It depends entirely on the source of said power. The source of power in 40K stems from raw emotion made manifest into beings known as daemons in the warp. Thats Fantasy.

If you had a setting where you could add a computer chip into your brain to allow you to control atoms and shift them in a desired manor to manifest "psychic powers" that could be considered Sci-fi because its rooted in reality.

There's a subtle difference.

Don't believe me, just ask Issac Asimov. He said it, not me.

Pure AI Tau battlesuits mixed in with the normal pilots
OR
Pure AI necron soldiers mixed in with the normal necrons
OR
Pure AI Chaos Space Marine faction complete with warpsmiths and sorcerers (maybe they're men of iron) and Titans
OR
Tyranids consume entire planets, gas giants, and stars. 100% of all matter and energy in the galaxy is turned into tyranid flesh, not just 0.0001% of it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Simply?

Increase the head count in Space Marine Chapters to 10,000.

Because 1,000,000 Marines has been, and always will be, a drop in the ocean.

Sure, keep the Lore that even a single squad can turn a Warzone on its head. That bit is fine with me.

But given attrition, travel time and the sheer number of active zones in any given war? 1,000,000 is just far, far too few.

Increase the chapters to 1,000,000. Then they have a chance of being meaningful.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

There are numerous sci-fi settings with psychic abilities, extradimemsional beings, and incoporeal entities of godlike power.

Heck, you can find all those in Star Trek.

I've never really seen Star Trek so I can't comment on that.

It depends entirely on the source of said power. The source of power in 40K stems from raw emotion made manifest into beings known as daemons in the warp. Thats Fantasy.

If you had a setting where you could add a computer chip into your brain to allow you to control atoms and shift them in a desired manor to manifest "psychic powers" that could be considered Sci-fi because its rooted in reality.

There's a subtle difference.

Don't believe me, just ask Issac Asimov. He said it, not me.

Issac Asimov penned a novel where one character could tune the emotions of other characters, ensuring loyalty. Iirc, no chip required, just an innate ability of said character, The Mule. I forget the name of the book, but it was the second in the Foundation series, considered a classic sci-fi collection.

It's been nearly 30 years since I read it though, the details are a bit hazy.

Foundation and Empire is the book.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

There are numerous sci-fi settings with psychic abilities, extradimemsional beings, and incoporeal entities of godlike power.

Heck, you can find all those in Star Trek.

I've never really seen Star Trek so I can't comment on that.

It depends entirely on the source of said power. The source of power in 40K stems from raw emotion made manifest into beings known as daemons in the warp. Thats Fantasy.

If you had a setting where you could add a computer chip into your brain to allow you to control atoms and shift them in a desired manor to manifest "psychic powers" that could be considered Sci-fi because its rooted in reality.

There's a subtle difference.

Don't believe me, just ask Issac Asimov. He said it, not me.

Issac Asimov penned a novel where one character could tune the emotions of other characters, ensuring loyalty. Iirc, no chip required, just an innate ability of said character, The Mule. I forget the name of the book, but it was the second in the Foundation series, considered a classic sci-fi collection.

It's been nearly 30 years since I read it though, the details are a bit hazy.

Foundation and Empire is the book.

indeed. it's often accepted that "Psionics" is just a fancy word of "magic.. but in sci-fi!"

roboemperor wrote:


Pure AI Chaos Space Marine faction complete with warpsmiths and sorcerers (maybe they're men of iron) and Titans

Wat?

I believe you've horribly got the opposite end of the Thousand Son's stick there. WTF are you on about?

 Grimtuff wrote:

roboemperor wrote:


Pure AI Chaos Space Marine faction complete with warpsmiths and sorcerers (maybe they're men of iron) and Titans

Wat?

I believe you've horribly got the opposite end of the Thousand Son's stick there. WTF are you on about?

Dark Mechanicum took men of iron stuff with them during horus heresy right? They even had a emperor class men of iron titan possessed by a daemon. So i want DarkMech to actually have a men of iron faction which will probably be robot chaos space marines factoion, and I want them to also have warpsmiths and sorcerers too.

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

roboemperor wrote:


Pure AI Chaos Space Marine faction complete with warpsmiths and sorcerers (maybe they're men of iron) and Titans

Wat?

I believe you've horribly got the opposite end of the Thousand Son's stick there. WTF are you on about?

They even had a emperor class men of iron titan

There's no such thing...

Chaos robots, you say? Or Chaos Androids?

Issac Asimov penned a novel where one character could tune the emotions of other characters, ensuring loyalty. Iirc, no chip required, just an innate ability of said character, The Mule. I forget the name of the book, but it was the second in the Foundation series, considered a classic sci-fi collection.

It's been nearly 30 years since I read it though, the details are a bit hazy.

Foundation and Empire is the book.

Ok, then whats the difference between Sci-fi and Fantasy then? Why have a distinction if there is none?

If you look up the definition you'll see that what I had written in my previous post is what the definition is. And that is based on what Asimov had said regarding the difference between Sci-fi and Fantasy.

Lasers and space ships don't make it sci-fi any more than swords and horses make it fantasy. All stories assume a certain level of technology. It's the rules of the universe in which they inhabit that define genre. Is it rooted in the rules of our world or one of the super natural?

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

Do you mean this thing, from one of the Grey Knights novels? No idea.

 Dysartes wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

Do you mean this thing, from one of the Grey Knights novels? No idea.

Yeah. It's the original titan. All titan designs are worse versions of it. So i figured it should be the strongest titan so emperor class.

roboemperor wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

Do you mean this thing, from one of the Grey Knights novels? No idea.

Yeah. It's the original titan. All titan designs are worse versions of it. So i figured it should be the strongest titan so emperor class.

that's not a man of Iron, or hasn't explitcably said to be one. frankly what would be the point of "AI" in chaos? it's easier to just toss a demon in something then program an AI

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Issac Asimov penned a novel where one character could tune the emotions of other characters, ensuring loyalty. Iirc, no chip required, just an innate ability of said character, The Mule. I forget the name of the book, but it was the second in the Foundation series, considered a classic sci-fi collection.

It's been nearly 30 years since I read it though, the details are a bit hazy.

Foundation and Empire is the book.

Ok, then whats the difference between Sci-fi and Fantasy then? Why have a distinction if there is none?

If you look up the definition you'll see that what I had written in my previous post is what the definition is. And that is based on what Asimov had said regarding the difference between Sci-fi and Fantasy.

Lasers and space ships don't make it sci-fi any more than swords and horses make it fantasy. All stories assume a certain level of technology. It's the rules of the universe in which they inhabit that define genre. Is it rooted in the rules of our world or one of the super natural?

Being as though there is no exact definition of Sci fi, only definitions of different types of Sci fi (hard and soft) you're going to have difficulty proving either that it is or isn't.

From wiki-science fiction

Science fiction elements can include, among others:

Temporal settings in the future, or in alternative histories.[278]
Spatial settings or scenes in outer space, on other worlds, in subterranean earth, or in parallel universes.[27]

Aspects of biology in fiction such as aliens, mutants, and enhanced humans.[279]

Speculative or predicted technology such as brain-computer interface, bio-engineering, superintelligent computers, robots, and ray guns and other advanced weapons.[279]

Undiscovered scientific possibilities such as teleportation, time travel, and faster-than-light travel or communication.[282]
New and different political and social systems and situations, including Utopian, dystopian, post-apocalyptic, or post-scarcity.

Future history and evolution of humans on Earth or on other planets.[284]

Paranormal abilities such as mind control, telepathy, and telekinesis.[285]

From wiki-fantasy

Most fantasy uses magic or other supernatural elements as a main plot element, theme, or setting. Magic and magical creatures are common in many of these worlds.

So, one could argue that 40k is a hybrid of Sci fi and fantasy.

I once heard the term "science fantasy" used. they where using it to describe star wars but IMHO that label could be applied nicely to 40k as well.

thing is, genres aren't very clear cut, just for example, what if I told you about a setting that was set in a dystopian near future where corperations controled everything, the internet was even more prevalaent then it is today, and cybernatic and genetic enhacnement of the body was common place? well you'd say that's clearly science fiction, the cyberpunk subgenre to be specific...

but what If I told you said setting also had elves, Orks, magic and dragons?

this BTW isn't a hypothetical eaither it's called Shadowrun

The funny thing about those themes is that they themselves don't have definitions in this context.

Star wars has 'biology' in the form of aliens. But that's no different to a dragon in fantasy.

The distinction seems to be almost entirely one of in-game comprehension. Characters in fantasy rarely analyse or examine the biology of fantastical creatures. Science fiction often tries to explain them - 'carbon fibre bones, bifurcated digestion with two part liquid for fire' etc

But often, science fiction style stories don't either. All these themes are just window dressing, aesthetic styles to the story. The detail of biology or blasters or hyperdrives is not part of the story.

They might as well be dragons, crossbows and steamships in their relative narrative importance.

I tend to divide the stories more by their faith vs fact style of approaching the universe in which they inhabit.

'harder' SciFi tends to examine the universe far more, tries to explain thngs rather than have the reader take them at face value.

Fantasy style stories just ignore this and treat it as a setting aesthetic. The nature of a dragons biology has no impact on the story and so ignore it.

granted you can have soft-fi that pretends to explain this stuff, but just... ugh. Star trek's like that. they love to toss technobabble around but most of it is a meaningless string of buzz words

BrianDavion wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

Do you mean this thing, from one of the Grey Knights novels? No idea.

Yeah. It's the original titan. All titan designs are worse versions of it. So i figured it should be the strongest titan so emperor class.

that's not a man of Iron, or hasn't explitcably said to be one. frankly what would be the point of "AI" in chaos? it's easier to just toss a demon in something then program an AI

Demons tend to do bad things to their own side. An AI doesn't try and eat your soul.

I'd want to revert Necrons back to what they were before they became comic book villains.

 BertBert wrote:
I'd want to revert Necrons back to what they were before they became comic book villains.

I actually prefer necrons the way they are now, they otherwised sounded plain to me.

If I could change a single thing it'd be the tyranids' ability to evolve, making it maybe slower, or at least a bt different in some fashion because in then the battles gainst tyranids are frustrating: it looks like they'd even evolve to counter your everyday lasgun and don't... Well dunno if people get my idea.

I got another one, either
1. Make c'tans don't resemble people. Serious immersion breaking for me. They don't look like necrontyr. They look like freaking humans or maybe eldar.
or
2. add a female c'tan. If you're gonna make no sense and make a formless star vampire in necrodermis look like humans, then at least add a female one.

BrianDavion wrote:
that's not a man of Iron, or hasn't explitcably said to be one. frankly what would be the point of "AI" in chaos? it's easier to just toss a demon in something then program an AI

On closer inspection.
1. You are right. Nowhere does it say it was a man of iron. Either I jumped to conclusions or i misread something.
2. The Castigator is confirmed to be bigger than the Emperor Class Titan as it is the bigger than all the imperium titans.
3. The Castigator is either Pure AI or a crazy Daemon Engine.

What's the point of AI in chaos?
1. What's the point of anything? Answer: FUN. Chaos got empty shell power armor chaos space marines. What's the point of that? They also brainwashed a Tyranid Hive Ship. What's the point of that too?
2. Dark mechanicum ran off with it. So why do they not use it? Cawl uses it with his clone cawl.

I’d make the setting less imperial centric. Not by decreasing the volume of imperial resources but upping the xenos and chaos stuff. It always feels like the galaxy is imperial territory and eldar are sort of bobbing around in there, Orks just show up for a Suicide mission, dark eldar have 1 planet? Necrons are like a land mine, chaos just spill out of the eye of terror for a laugh. Only tau have their own defined territory. I can’t believe that in the whole galaxy there aren’t more strongholds of non humans. It’s a real big place.

roboemperor wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

roboemperor wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
There's no such thing...

How big was the castigator titan? He might've been warlord.

Do you mean this thing, from one of the Grey Knights novels? No idea.

Yeah. It's the original titan. All titan designs are worse versions of it. So i figured it should be the strongest titan so emperor class.

The Castigator is not an Emperor/Imperator-Class Titan. It is it’s own thing.

roboemperor wrote:
Chaos got empty shell power armor chaos space marines. What's the point of that?

Cruel irony. Ahriman was trying to protect his marines from rampant mutation.

mrFickle wrote:
I’d make the setting less imperial centric. Not by decreasing the volume of imperial resources but upping the xenos and chaos stuff. It always feels like the galaxy is imperial territory and eldar are sort of bobbing around in there, Orks just show up for a Suicide mission, dark eldar have 1 planet? Necrons are like a land mine, chaos just spill out of the eye of terror for a laugh. Only tau have their own defined territory. I can’t believe that in the whole galaxy there aren’t more strongholds of non humans. It’s a real big place.

But most of the galaxy IS imperial territory. Craftworlds and Exodites are basically refugees, Dark Eldar can only live in the Webway and Commoragh is the only city left there because the others were either destroyed or joined into Commoragh and honestly newcrons are lucky to have what they do with their dumbass travel fluff.

I agree there should be more Orks and Chaos bases though. One has empires all over and the other can pop up whenever they please because magic.

Crispy78 wrote:

roboemperor wrote:
Chaos got empty shell power armor chaos space marines. What's the point of that?

Cruel irony. Ahriman was trying to protect his marines from rampant mutation.

Well, he got what he wanted, just not how he intended.

pm713 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d make the setting less imperial centric. Not by decreasing the volume of imperial resources but upping the xenos and chaos stuff. It always feels like the galaxy is imperial territory and eldar are sort of bobbing around in there, Orks just show up for a Suicide mission, dark eldar have 1 planet? Necrons are like a land mine, chaos just spill out of the eye of terror for a laugh. Only tau have their own defined territory. I can’t believe that in the whole galaxy there aren’t more strongholds of non humans. It’s a real big place.

But most of the galaxy IS imperial territory. Craftworlds and Exodites are basically refugees, Dark Eldar can only live in the Webway and Commoragh is the only city left there because the others were either destroyed or joined into Commoragh and honestly newcrons are lucky to have what they do with their dumbass travel fluff.

I agree there should be more Orks and Chaos bases though. One has empires all over and the other can pop up whenever they please because magic.

And there you go, that is what I’d change. If eldar and dark eldar are such small fry then they really add anything other than intrigue to the setting, they aren’t enough of a presence to really affect the narrative of the galaxy, or if they do that it feels a bit unconvincing. I’d much prefer it if Orks and eldar had a dominion like the tau did, even if the eldar was split up across the craft worlds. But the great rift story line should be the start of chaos establishing a permanent foothold in the galaxy and taking control of imperial planets and chaos armies getting the same attention as imperial armies from the GW

mrFickle wrote:

pm713 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I’d make the setting less imperial centric. Not by decreasing the volume of imperial resources but upping the xenos and chaos stuff. It always feels like the galaxy is imperial territory and eldar are sort of bobbing around in there, Orks just show up for a Suicide mission, dark eldar have 1 planet? Necrons are like a land mine, chaos just spill out of the eye of terror for a laugh. Only tau have their own defined territory. I can’t believe that in the whole galaxy there aren’t more strongholds of non humans. It’s a real big place.

But most of the galaxy IS imperial territory. Craftworlds and Exodites are basically refugees, Dark Eldar can only live in the Webway and Commoragh is the only city left there because the others were either destroyed or joined into Commoragh and honestly newcrons are lucky to have what they do with their dumbass travel fluff.

I agree there should be more Orks and Chaos bases though. One has empires all over and the other can pop up whenever they please because magic.

And there you go, that is what I’d change. If eldar and dark eldar are such small fry then they really add anything other than intrigue to the setting, they aren’t enough of a presence to really affect the narrative of the galaxy, or if they do that it feels a bit unconvincing. I’d much prefer it if Orks and eldar had a dominion like the tau did, even if the eldar was split up across the craft worlds. But the great rift story line should be the start of chaos establishing a permanent foothold in the galaxy and taking control of imperial planets and chaos armies getting the same attention as imperial armies from the GW

They aren't really small fry though. DE have an almost literally unassailable fortress from which they can go where they want to do pretty much whatever they want and Craftworlders don't need territory to alter things, that's not how they work. Craftworlders shape the narrative by saving or killing important people at key moments e.g. Guilliman. If you remove the Eldar (well Ynnari) from that then there's no Guilliman, Caw or Primaris and the story would be radically different. Neither race need or really want a held dominion to affect things.