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If you know for a fact that some action you undertake will cause suffering to others, then you DO share some responsibility in that suffering. I ain't trying to absolve the Imperium of being asshats, but moral high horse don't make my loved ones less dead because of my choice.

I cause no suffering to anyone by refusing to bend my knee to a tyrant.

You're victim-blaming to try and rationalize your own choice.

Excommunicatus wrote:I cause no suffering to anyone by refusing to bend my knee to a tyrant.

You're victim-blaming to try and rationalize your own choice.

Victim blaming? That's funny coming from the person who said:

Excommunicatus wrote:Human history proves that the vast majority of us are craven cowards who would rather live on our knees than stand for ourselves.

Not sure why you're surprised that bootlickers exist.

The real victim isn't you, who made the choice to stand against tyranny. It's the people around you who didn't make that choice, but suffered for it anyway.

An acknowledgement that human history proves that we're mostly fine with living under repressive/oppressive conditions is in no way victim-blaming.

Actually we would all be victims. Of the tyrant. Whose act killed us, no matter how hard you try to shift the culpability away from them.

Once that geller field fails, I'll pray to whatever gods are listening.

I have deffo read things about planets where people not living the lives of full blown fanatics. In fact some stuff describes people who clearly don’t think about the emperor much although I’m sure they would be careful about challenging the cult.

I expect the imperial cult focuses itself strategically as all they really seek is power and if there is little benefit in them forcing the dogma on people then they can live a life of relative, if somewhat concealed, atheism

Calling people living in those conditions "craven cowards" is, in fact, victim blaming. You blame them for their inaction, and contend that I would blame them for their action. It is the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black.

The real point of contention I have with your statement is that you chose a poor way to resist the tyrant. Your sole objection not only doomed you, but those around you, and accomplished nothing. Your morals stand firm and as the axe comes down you shout "death to tyrants" to deaf ears. No talk of gaining support and allies to actually free people from tyranny. Just a lone man shouting into the void and calling down death on all he knows. Imagine if GSCs and Chaos Cults just did that. The Imperium would certainly have a far easier time with them.

My stance is the same as it has been and blames no one: that if I were to take an action that I know will result in the deaths of people who did not know or consent to me taking that action, that I have taken away their choice in the matter and made a selfish decision, regardless of context. And that selfish decision means I hold at least some culpability in what has occurred, for if I had not taken that action, the outcome would have been different. That doesn't detract from the culpability of the entity that actually performed that action, it just means I share in it.

As an example, let's say I locked you and 100 other people in a room with a lever next to the door and said "if you pull this lever, everyone in the room will die, but if you don't then you will all spend the rest of your natural lives in here." And, without consulting or asking anyone else or considering "maybe we can break down the door or dig our way out", you pull the lever immediately because you'd rather die than spend the rest of your life in a locked room. Yes, I am responsible for putting you all in a situation where the choice was death or "kneel". But that doesn't absolve you of your decision to make that choice for everyone else around you.

Sure, ok. If you want to stretch the definition of victim-blaming to the point of meaningless in order to rationalize, sure.

All of that is a massive strawman. A massive, massive, massive strawman. I only said I wouldn't bend my knee, you assumed the rest to be whatever was most convenient for your inane argument.

Making the decision for those around me without consulting or asking anyone is yet another massive, massive strawman. I have said nothing about how any of might come to pass and once more you have simply assumed whatever version is most convenient for your tripe.

Are you saying that people bending a knee to a tyrant aren't victims or that calling them cowards for doing so isn't blaming them? Cuz I'm not sure what definition of victim blaming you're using, but I'd wager that calling the victims of tyranny cowards is part of that definition.

Fair enough, though I doubt many people would take "won't bend my knee" to mean "pay lip service until I can topple the system".

I mentioned: "I don't want my loved ones to pay the price for my decision" and your reply was a sarcastic "collective punishment is the fault of the victim". I replied again that "if I knowingly take an action that causes suffering to others, then I bear some responsibility in that" and you replied with "I cause no suffering by refusing ti bend a knee". The implication being that if innocents suffer for something I do, then it is not my fault that they have suffered.

Again, I apologize for making an assumption, but the natural progression of the conversation made it seem as though you implied as such. Human dialogue requires context, and within the context of our talk, this was the stance that I thought you had. If it is not, then perhaps I need to work on picking up the appropriate context clues. Or ignoring them and only taking statements at face value.

I doubt that too, but then again that is just another strawman.

I have nothing further to add. I've made my point.

The thing is, if there was a decent chance of abolishing the Imperial Cult or at least reforming it into something less focused on "dying for the Emperor is the best!" then it could be worth it to try.
But we know with our out-of-universe perspective that the Imperium would prefer to call exterminatus on a hundred worlds rather than question itself.

So the choices really are:
1. actually worship the Emperor
2. pretend to worship the Emperor
3. die in a promethium bonfire

The other options are joining a chaos cult (if you can find one in the first place), which is basically guaranteed to end up really bad for the average schmuck and cause a ton of collateral damage; or joining the T'au Empire, which is a different kind of oppressive so it might suit some people better I guess?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I doubt that too, but then again that is just another strawman.

I have nothing further to add. I've made my point.

Very well. I also have no interest in continuing this debate. Have a great day, friend.

I already do !

In the words of Captain America:

"there is only one god Ma'm and Im pretty sure he doesn't dress like that"

1) Obviously yes. Brainwashed and indoctrinated to oblivion and back

2) This is rather hard to be honest. Assuming I only know what HE did in the heresy and what kind of "Bad Dad" he was I would probably be on the side of Horus. Not worshiping Chaos tough, just believing that we should rule ourself.
Buuuut... If I know what happend with Saint Celestine, la Sabbat, BMF Dominique or the Legion of the Damned I think I would actually worship Big E. Knowing that doing his work can benefit you and actually fighting for humanity might be enough for me (an Atheist) to do his holy work

If I didn't have access to my medications, my health would decline precipitously, so ultimately, it would ultimately be Grandfather Nurgle for me.

Yes, because no matter what I feel about the subject I am not an idiot. If we just go from "Rules, Regulations, Conduct Proper, Codes, Practices and Laws of the Great and Magnificent Imperial Guard of Humanity":

Art. 0493/67k - Not showing devotion to The Emperor or the Imperial Cult - Soldier will be sent to a penal battalion.

Art. 6741/09a - Heresy - Soldier will have his extremities removed and left to bleed to death. The body will then be burned.

Art. 7794/13f - Disrespectful speech against The Emperor - Soldier will be flogged then shot.

Art. IG 3612/63k - Failure to salute the image of The Emperor/Imperial Aquila/Regimental Colours - Soldier shall be branded on the left cheek and court-martialled.

I don't think anyone not appearing to be 100% team Emperor would last very long.

 Tiennos wrote:
The thing is, if there was a decent chance of abolishing the Imperial Cult or at least reforming it into something less focused on "dying for the Emperor is the best!" then it could be worth it to try.
But we know with our out-of-universe perspective that the Imperium would prefer to call exterminatus on a hundred worlds rather than question itself.

So the choices really are:
1. actually worship the Emperor
2. pretend to worship the Emperor
3. die in a promethium bonfire

The other options are joining a chaos cult (if you can find one in the first place), which is basically guaranteed to end up really bad for the average schmuck and cause a ton of collateral damage; or joining the T'au Empire, which is a different kind of oppressive so it might suit some people better I guess?

2 eventually leads to 3 anyway....

 Haasbioroid wrote:
The fact that many of you would say yes, just to make sure you didn't die, is depressing.

People tend to appreciate living. If by dying I would be protecting others or something else more valuable than just my own pride, then, yes, it might be different. But sacrificing one's life as an empty gesture that achieves nothing really isn't worth it. And I wager once the cold steel of the bolt pistol would be on our temple, any sort of sacrifice might start to feel far less appealing. It is easy to be brave in hypotheticals.

In this universe... no way!

However the world of 40k contains a literal hell and manifests demons. So hell yeah.

The entire hypocrite angle that GW tried
to push in their lore is so flimsy in the face of you know... demons and hell!

axxiomatic wrote:
In this universe... no way!

However the world of 40k contains a literal hell and manifests demons. So hell yeah.

The entire hypocrite angle that GW tried
to push in their lore is so flimsy in the face of you know... demons and hell!

The thing is, it's not worship specifically that powers warp entities, but emotions.

Bending the knee and saying the words won't empower the emperor to protect you from daemons.

All it will do is protdct you from your neighbours, which is what all outward displays of religion are really for in reality - visible compliance with the religious consensus so you aren't stoned to death. God can see into your soul so genuflecting isn't going to impress him....

Hellebore wrote:


Bending the knee and saying the words won't empower the emperor to protect you from daemons.

All it will do is protdct you from your neighbours, which is what all outward displays of religion are really for in reality - visible compliance with the religious consensus so you aren't stoned to death. God can see into your soul so genuflecting isn't going to impress him....

Irrelevant as it doesn't matter if it's the emperor behind it or not. Acts of faith are enough to generate a positive outcome. Might as well cover your bases.

I would, actually as an imperial citizen you can' find much more hope and purpose, apart from turning to chaos, but i'm fiercy loyalist.

axxiomatic wrote:

Hellebore wrote:


Bending the knee and saying the words won't empower the emperor to protect you from daemons.

All it will do is protdct you from your neighbours, which is what all outward displays of religion are really for in reality - visible compliance with the religious consensus so you aren't stoned to death. God can see into your soul so genuflecting isn't going to impress him....

Irrelevant as it doesn't matter if it's the emperor behind it or not. Acts of faith are enough to generate a positive outcome. Might as well cover your bases.

It does matter because it's the emotional reaction you have to those acts of faith that cause the result. If you aren't genuinely transcendent with adoration and awe of the Emperor it won't work.

Hellebore wrote:

axxiomatic wrote:

Hellebore wrote:


Bending the knee and saying the words won't empower the emperor to protect you from daemons.

All it will do is protdct you from your neighbours, which is what all outward displays of religion are really for in reality - visible compliance with the religious consensus so you aren't stoned to death. God can see into your soul so genuflecting isn't going to impress him....

Irrelevant as it doesn't matter if it's the emperor behind it or not. Acts of faith are enough to generate a positive outcome. Might as well cover your bases.

It does matter because it's the emotional reaction you have to those acts of faith that cause the result. If you aren't genuinely transcendent with adoration and awe of the Emperor it won't work.

The Emperor doesn't personally check the belief of every human and even if he did he wouldn't care.