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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

AnomanderRake wrote:The commutative property of multiplication isn't the entire model of everything that's happening here. The average doesn't change, but statistical variance depends on how many dice you're rolling, so your odds of getting slightly better than average or slightly worse than average do change depending on what order you roll the dice in.


That doesn't change either; as long as you're using the same set of trials it all washes out equivalent regardless of the ordering. For example, the chance of rolling the extreme result of all successes is the same whether you're rolling 10 dice at 2+, 4+, 6+ or 6+, 4+, 2+. As long as you start with the same number of dice, the probability of each particular outcome is the same.

Unit1126PLL wrote:So anyways, let's talk about alternatives.

I for one really like the Lord of the Rings system, where toughness and everything is all rolled up into a "Defense" stat.

For example: A normal human wearing normal clothes is Defense 3.

A slightly tougher human (e.g. a hero) wearing normal clothes is Defense 4.

A shield adds +1 (as well as giving you a special combat maneuver). Armor adds +1. Heavy armor adds +2, heavy dwarf armor adds +3.

So Defenses in the game range from 3 to 10 (where siege engines, structures, etc. reside). The game uses an old 40k style wound chart, so basically, the way a fight would work is the following:

1) Roll a Duel roll (essentially a rolloff to see who wins the swordfight, with the more highly skilled model taking ties).

2) Roll Strikes (the model that wins the Duel can then hit the model that lost. It's simply a single roll, Strength vs Defense). That's it.


Yeah, S, AP, and Damage all have overlap/redundancy in their design, so I think a move to a more consolidated Defense representing armor, and Wounds representing 'toughness', would be a better way to go.

However, 40K's current design space with the D6 system is a bit too limited to strip out one of the rolls without experiencing unintended consequences. I found that even just by calibrating a consolidated Strength-vs-Defense system to Guardsman fighting Guardsmen, I was unable to get Marines into the same design space with probabilities comparable to what they currently have.

The other issue is that the variance in unit size and armor makes it a little fuzzy when something should be D+1 for being tough, and when it should just be more wounds. And going from W1 to W2 is, obviously, a huge jump in durability against common weapons.

A more RPG-like system could start with W2 as the base for humanoids, and that would probably give enough granularity to have Defense represent solely armor and Wounds represent solely toughness, with weapons then being rated for AP and Damage. But that would represent a massive change to the core mechanics, and probably introduce a lot more bookkeeping and dice-rolling, rather getting away from the original purpose.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 catbarf wrote:
Yeah, S, AP, and Damage all have overlap/redundancy in their design, so I think a move to a more consolidated Defense representing armor, and Wounds representing 'toughness', would be a better way to go.

However, 40K's current design space with the D6 system is a bit too limited to strip out one of the rolls without experiencing unintended consequences. I found that even just by calibrating a consolidated Strength-vs-Defense system to Guardsman fighting Guardsmen, I was unable to get Marines into the same design space with probabilities comparable to what they currently have.

The other issue is that the variance in unit size and armor makes it a little fuzzy when something should be D+1 for being tough, and when it should just be more wounds. And going from W1 to W2 is, obviously, a huge jump in durability against common weapons.

A more RPG-like system could start with W2 as the base for humanoids, and that would probably give enough granularity to have Defense represent solely armor and Wounds represent solely toughness, with weapons then being rated for AP and Damage. But that would represent a massive change to the core mechanics, and probably introduce a lot more bookkeeping and dice-rolling, rather getting away from the original purpose.


Lord of the Rings manages to capture Balrogs, Mumaks, bats, giant spiders, regular spiders, Humans, goblins, siege engines, curtain walls, and all sorts of things with its damage resolution system.

The problem I think is trying to match the original probabilities, as if they have any bearing whatsoever on anything. The way the game should be designed, if it really cared about narrative, is to look at the probability that a lasgun will kill a Space Marine in the "reality" (i.e. the P-sub-k of a lasgun against a Space Marine), and then try to match that probability through the use of dice. I VERY MUCH DOUBT the designers do anything of the sort.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in ca
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





London, Ontario

 AnomanderRake wrote:
 greatbigtree wrote:
...No, there is no mathmatical difference between 0.667 x 0.500 x 0.333 and 0.667 x 0.333 x 0.500...


The commutative property of multiplication isn't the entire model of everything that's happening here. The average doesn't change, but statistical variance depends on how many dice you're rolling, so your odds of getting slightly better than average or slightly worse than average do change depending on what order you roll the dice in.


This is a bit of a foolish thing to hang on, but what the hell.

The odds of a given, single attack, succeeding at inflicting damage does not change, regardless of the order of operations. The distribution curve of total results will change, yes. Higher success rates "early on" will result in higher potentials down the road, and less "predictable" totals.

So yes, rolling more dice results in a wider range of results. That doesn't change the individual odds of a given attack being successful.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





Hit Points are a s*** system.

If I was going to redesign it, I'd stick with T and Sv, and increase the toughness of models that are supposed to be harder to kill.

There's space for armor to also be 0+ or less and to have changed the strength rating of high power weapons when they introduced tank toughness, so it could be arranged that a tank might see a lascannon like an Space Marine sees a bolter, but sees a Executioner Laser Destroyer like a Space Marine sees a plasmagun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/13 15:47:40


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Hit Points are a s*** system.

If I was going to redesign it, I'd stick with T and Sv, and increase the toughness of models that are supposed to be harder to kill.

There's space for armor to also be 0+ or less and to have changed the strength rating of high power weapons when they introduced tank toughness, so it could be arranged that a tank might see a lascannon like an Space Marine sees a bolter, but sees a Executioner Laser Destroyer like a Space Marine sees a plasmagun.


I like the idea, but that takes us back to the swinginess of the old AV system. You could see this as either a bug or feature depending on your perspective; it's certainly more realistic than the current ablative system of wounds.

How would you handle stuff like superheavies and Titans? Maybe give them a very limited number of wounds, like the old mass points system?
   
Made in fi
Furious Raptor



Finland

I must point out that mathematically there isn't any problem with:

1. [Shots] times [Hits] times [Wounds] times [Unsaved wounds]

compared to different order:

2. [Shots] times [Hits] times [Unsaved hits] times [Wounds]

Shots times X times Y times Z = Shots times Z times Y times X. The order does not matter.

The 2nd method above makes the wound and save rolls not seem redundant with each other.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/13 16:06:35


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Hit Points are a s*** system.

If I was going to redesign it, I'd stick with T and Sv, and increase the toughness of models that are supposed to be harder to kill.

There's space for armor to also be 0+ or less and to have changed the strength rating of high power weapons when they introduced tank toughness, so it could be arranged that a tank might see a lascannon like an Space Marine sees a bolter, but sees a Executioner Laser Destroyer like a Space Marine sees a plasmagun.


I like the idea, but that takes us back to the swinginess of the old AV system. You could see this as either a bug or feature depending on your perspective; it's certainly more realistic than the current ablative system of wounds.

How would you handle stuff like superheavies and Titans? Maybe give them a very limited number of wounds, like the old mass points system?


You could probably go to high T with a hull mass points for all vehicles. And maybe something like full thrust for system checks if more simplified. Then super heavys and titans can have a bigger systems list. Use a save at the end for the systems themselves. Just a idea from what was said above.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 catbarf wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Hit Points are a s*** system.

If I was going to redesign it, I'd stick with T and Sv, and increase the toughness of models that are supposed to be harder to kill.

There's space for armor to also be 0+ or less and to have changed the strength rating of high power weapons when they introduced tank toughness, so it could be arranged that a tank might see a lascannon like an Space Marine sees a bolter, but sees a Executioner Laser Destroyer like a Space Marine sees a plasmagun.


I like the idea, but that takes us back to the swinginess of the old AV system. You could see this as either a bug or feature depending on your perspective; it's certainly more realistic than the current ablative system of wounds.

How would you handle stuff like superheavies and Titans? Maybe give them a very limited number of wounds, like the old mass points system?


I consider that a feature. Tanks are not alive until they sustain exactly 4 hits from man-packed recoilless rifles, getting slower and less accurate after 2 hits and then 3 hits. Tanks are largely unfazed by whatever you're doing to it until a 120mm long-rod penetrator goes through the armor and fills the inside with flaming DU shrapnel killing the crew and setting a fire, at which point it's very dead.


For super-heavies, location damage could be in order, and it's just dead when the controlling player decides it's not serviceable anymore or the crew abandons it. They're big enough that even a fire or detonation would only destroy part of them, more like a warship than a tank.

Taking a page out of old times:
Knight:
1-2 Legs: This vehicle is Immobilized. Test 3+ or Fall Over and take a penetrating hit. If the vehicle is fallen over, re-roll this result.
3 Right Arm Weapon: The right arm is destroyed. If this is already destroyed, this effect does nothing
4 Left Arm Weapon: the left arm is destroyed. If this is already destroyed, this effect does nothing
5 Core: This vehicle takes a critical hit to the vehicle core, where it's sole pilot and all it's vital systems are. On a 1-3: This vehicle halves movement and takes a -1 to hit for next turn. 4: Destroy carapace weapon, otherwise do 6: Fire!. 5: do 6:Fire!, 6: Pilot is killed, vehicle is destroyed.
6 Fire!: at the end of the turn, on a 3+, this inflicts one penetrating hit to the vehicle. Then, test leadership versus the number of destroyed components, if failed the crew bails out and the vehicle is considered destroyed. If it is passed the crew may attempt to extinguish the fire on a 6+.

Baneblade:
1-2 Tracks: This vehicle is Immobilized. Additional hits to this location do nothing.
3-4 Hull Weapons: Destroy at random: 1 Hull Heavy Bolter, 2 Left Rear Sponson, 3 Right Rear Sponson, 4 Left Forward Sponson, 5 Right Forward Sponson, or 6 Demolisher Cannon. Re-roll results for already destroyed components. if there are no components remaining, this effect does nothing.
5 Turret: Test 5+ to destroy the main battle cannon and autocannon. Otherwise, the vehicle takes a -1 to all hit-rolls for the next turn and halves movement as the crew recovered and replaces dead positions. If the main battle cannon and autocannon are destroyed, this effect becomes 6: Fire!
6 Fire!: at the end of the turn, on a 3+, this inflicts one penetrating hit to the vehicle. Then, test leadership versus the number of destroyed components, if failed the crew bails out and the vehicle is considered destroyed. If it is passed the crew may attempt to extinguish the fire on a 4+.

Astareus:
1-2 Grav Plates: Grav plates are simple and redundant, and a single hit does not disable all of them. Reduce movement speed by half the maximum. If movement speed is already 0, this effect does nothing.
3-4 Secondary Weapons: Destroy at random 1 hull weapon system or the void shields. Re-roll results for already destroyed components. if there are no components remaining, this effect does nothing.
5 Turret: Test 5+ to destroy the accelerator autocannon. Otherwise, the vehicle takes a -1 to all hit-rolls for the next turn and halves movement as the crew recovered and replaces dead positions. If the accelerator autocannons are destroyed, this effect becomes 6: Fire!
6 Fire!: at the end of the turn, on a 3+, this inflicts one penetrating hit to the vehicle. Then, test leadership versus the number of destroyed components, if failed the crew bails out and the vehicle is considered destroyed. If it is passed the crew may attempt to extinguish the fire on a 4+.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/02/13 16:54:22


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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