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 Continuity wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Continuity wrote:


It's a remaster that didn't even include all the new content since it excludes everything from Vigilus.

CSM 2.0 is a scam


It was never billed as a 2.0. It literally just added units and they told you that you could use the old book with a PDF or get the "new" one. Problem was the PDF had no points.


There's a big fat "II" symbol on the codex cover


WHC called it "Codex: Chaos Space Marines – the Updated Edition". This is the first time I've ever noticed the two, so it really isn't all that big and fat, it seems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/04 23:33:00


   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Continuity wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Continuity wrote:


It's a remaster that didn't even include all the new content since it excludes everything from Vigilus.

CSM 2.0 is a scam


It was never billed as a 2.0. It literally just added units and they told you that you could use the old book with a PDF or get the "new" one. Problem was the PDF had no points.


There's a big fat "II" symbol on the codex cover


WHC called it "Codex: Chaos Space Marines – the Updated Edition". This is the first time I've ever noticed the two, so it really isn't all that big and fat, it seems.

You're right. Gw never claimed it was csm 2.0. It was everybody else that started calling it that, and using that to claim that csm shouldn't get a 2.0 codex because we already had one. That's why I started a thread speculating on what a csm 2.0 would look like, based on some parallels I saw to 3rd eg csm and chosen both being cheaper than their loyalist counterparts.
   
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Yea, I'd be ok with marks and expanded traits that also affect vehicles. It will probably be a while though - it seems GW caught CSM at precisely the wrong time during their transition into a bigger design space.

   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I'd be ok with marks and expanded traits that also affect vehicles. It will probably be a while though - it seems GW caught CSM at precisely the wrong time during their transition into a bigger design space.

That assumes gw considers csm 2 as an actual update, and not just an attempt to consolidate some new data sheets. They said themselves it wasn't required remember?
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.
   
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Across the Rubicon

Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.


Well, yeah. New Primaris models ARE new units. They are obviously going to have new rules. We were expecting disco lords to be Chaos Lords riding Maulter Fiends? And even that would still be a new data sheet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 00:50:41


   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.


Well, yeah. New Primaris models ARE new units. They are obviously going to have new rules. We were expecting disco lords to be Chaos Lords riding Maulter Fiends? And even that would still be a new data sheet.


I meant get massive releases AND have great rules generally.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.


Well, yeah. New Primaris models ARE new units. They are obviously going to have new rules. We were expecting disco lords to be Chaos Lords riding Maulter Fiends? And even that would still be a new data sheet.

That becomes a problem when one faction gets the vast majority of new releases. You think it's good for the game when space marines keep getting new and improved units while other factions units are left to languish in their old stat lines merely because they're not new? And new units had nothing to do little to do with the mountain of new rules sm got in c:sm 2.0 and the supplements. Those boosted old units right along with the new.
   
Made in us
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Across the Rubicon

Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.


Well, yeah. New Primaris models ARE new units. They are obviously going to have new rules. We were expecting disco lords to be Chaos Lords riding Maulter Fiends? And even that would still be a new data sheet.

That becomes a problem when one faction gets the vast majority of new releases. You think it's good for the game when space marines keep getting new and improved units while other factions units are left to languish in their old stat lines merely because they're not new? And new units had nothing to do little to do with the mountain of new rules sm got in c:sm 2.0 and the supplements. Those boosted old units right along with the new.


Because my space marine army is only Primaris, I don't personally consider it so much a new and improved models/rules as much as I consider it a a new faction. A faction that pre-splits into 4 (Codec Compliant, BA, DA, SW) to 5 (Death Watch) factions at release. Very commercially popular ones at that. So again, I don't see it as the majority of releases as much as a model kit that fleshes out 4 to 5 new factions at the same time. I am not going to argue that those factions shouldn't just be subfaction because I mostly agree. Just as the game is, they should be considered separate factions that just so happen to use the same model kits.

I take issue with your comment insinuating that Primaris marines getting new rules is some how bad even though they are new units for basically a new group of factions. It smells of hating Primaris to hate Primaris which has become all too common and tiring as a fan of them. And as fan of them, I have become rather defensive from the constant onslaught of insinuations and overt disdain others have expressed toward them such as your comment. I have become ever more calloused to the issues of 'languished older units' or anything else others might have issue with elsewhere in 40k So feel free to express your contempt toward Primaris marines, understand you do yourself no favors from fans such as myself even if I happen to agree that older units could use a refresh. I grow colder to those issues with every jab.

It wasn't until Shadowspear that I felt Primaris could really stand on their own without Firstborn. Even today, because Primaris don't directly compete, in nearly all cases, with Firstborn (which also suffer from languished stat lines) there are a number of gaps in my space marine army even with all these releases. Strangely enough, I don't feel those gaps nearly as much with my Genestealer Cult where I would be hard pressed to think of something more I would want for that faction. I also think improved is a loaded way of talking about Primaris. They weren't that great before the new codex (and definitely not at release) and even now I can tell you the 15 Reivers (or any number of Infiltrators/Incursors) I put in my army aren't destroying my local meta. Not to mention the Primaris stat line hasn't really changed from its inception. It is still basically +1 Attack, +1 Wound. And the mountain of special abilities marines have largely been applied to all marines loyal and traitor alike.

I have a Chaos Space Marine army. It was my first 40k army. The Black Legion subfaction trait is awful. I don't remember the last time either parts came up in a game I was playing. Marks and Icons barely do anything at all. The rules are a mess strewn across I can't say how many books. I like running three 10 man squads of CSM for my troops, and it really doesn't work that well even at the casual level that I play. Haarken is a bizarre case of 'what were they thinking?' As he doesn't work well in any sense of what GW was going for even after they 'fixed' him to basically non-functional. Chaos Terminators only kinda work because they have cheap options to keep losses to you army not as bad. The Land Raider continues to be a giant point sink in most games. A number of other issues that result in rather underwhelming performances from what should be solid CSM tent-pole units. I wouldn't be upset if an actual new Codex: Chaos Space Marines turned up to consolidate the mess and get the faction closer to what the loyalists marines enjoy. Nothing making the OP. More like what happen with Slaves to Darkness and their new Battletome: better but still kinda underwhelming but has a fighting chance of winning now.

A lot of of the power boost in the new Codex: Space Marines was done, I believe, to bring them back in competition with other factions. Certainly, they were over-tuned and that is slowly being addressed. Almost none of it had to do with Primaris and specifically Primaris stat lines. As someone that plays a few different armies, I am glad GW didn't bring down the nerf hammer like they usually do. I can't speak about the supplements as my army doesn't use one. I can tell you I already basically played Doctrines as the FAQ forces me to. It just seems like they want marines conduct war and worked for how I built my Primaris army anyways. I still think Bolter Displine need addressing more to keep marine players from castling up with static gunlines which I don't feel is how even the shooty-est of marine chapters want to operate. But I like the idea of letting the latest FAQ sink in before making additional adjustments over the more typical that faction had their fun on top now exterminatus them back to low tier for awhile.

None of that has to do with Primaris stat lines though.

   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Its almost like ya'll want to have new models AND good rules... WHo do you think you are? sme kind of special marines?

Get back in yo cage npcs..!!!

Yes, right next to those lovely new banshees. Apparently new models doesn't equal new rules, unless the word "primaris " is involved.


Well, yeah. New Primaris models ARE new units. They are obviously going to have new rules. We were expecting disco lords to be Chaos Lords riding Maulter Fiends? And even that would still be a new data sheet.

That becomes a problem when one faction gets the vast majority of new releases. You think it's good for the game when space marines keep getting new and improved units while other factions units are left to languish in their old stat lines merely because they're not new? And new units had nothing to do little to do with the mountain of new rules sm got in c:sm 2.0 and the supplements. Those boosted old units right along with the new.


Because my space marine army is only Primaris, I don't personally consider it so much a new and improved models/rules as much as I consider it a a new faction. A faction that pre-splits into 4 (Codec Compliant, BA, DA, SW) to 5 (Death Watch) factions at release. Very commercially popular ones at that. So again, I don't see it as the majority of releases as much as a model kit that fleshes out 4 to 5 new factions at the same time. I am not going to argue that those factions shouldn't just be subfaction because I mostly agree. Just as the game is, they should be considered separate factions that just so happen to use the same model kits.

I take issue with your comment insinuating that Primaris marines getting new rules is some how bad even though they are new units for basically a new group of factions. It smells of hating Primaris to hate Primaris which has become all too common and tiring as a fan of them. And as fan of them, I have become rather defensive from the constant onslaught of insinuations and overt disdain others have expressed toward them such as your comment. I have become ever more calloused to the issues of 'languished older units' or anything else others might have issue with elsewhere in 40k So feel free to express your contempt toward Primaris marines, understand you do yourself no favors from fans such as myself even if I happen to agree that older units could use a refresh. I grow colder to those issues with every jab.

It wasn't until Shadowspear that I felt Primaris could really stand on their own without Firstborn. Even today, because Primaris don't directly compete, in nearly all cases, with Firstborn (which also suffer from languished stat lines) there are a number of gaps in my space marine army even with all these releases. Strangely enough, I don't feel those gaps nearly as much with my Genestealer Cult where I would be hard pressed to think of something more I would want for that faction. I also think improved is a loaded way of talking about Primaris. They weren't that great before the new codex (and definitely not at release) and even now I can tell you the 15 Reivers (or any number of Infiltrators/Incursors) I put in my army aren't destroying my local meta. Not to mention the Primaris stat line hasn't really changed from its inception. It is still basically +1 Attack, +1 Wound. And the mountain of special abilities marines have largely been applied to all marines loyal and traitor alike.

I have a Chaos Space Marine army. It was my first 40k army. The Black Legion subfaction trait is awful. I don't remember the last time either parts came up in a game I was playing. Marks and Icons barely do anything at all. The rules are a mess strewn across I can't say how many books. I like running three 10 man squads of CSM for my troops, and it really doesn't work that well even at the casual level that I play. Haarken is a bizarre case of 'what were they thinking?' As he doesn't work well in any sense of what GW was going for even after they 'fixed' him to basically non-functional. Chaos Terminators only kinda work because they have cheap options to keep losses to you army not as bad. The Land Raider continues to be a giant point sink in most games. A number of other issues that result in rather underwhelming performances from what should be solid CSM tent-pole units. I wouldn't be upset if an actual new Codex: Chaos Space Marines turned up to consolidate the mess and get the faction closer to what the loyalists marines enjoy. Nothing making the OP. More like what happen with Slaves to Darkness and their new Battletome: better but still kinda underwhelming but has a fighting chance of winning now.

A lot of of the power boost in the new Codex: Space Marines was done, I believe, to bring them back in competition with other factions. Certainly, they were over-tuned and that is slowly being addressed. Almost none of it had to do with Primaris and specifically Primaris stat lines. As someone that plays a few different armies, I am glad GW didn't bring down the nerf hammer like they usually do. I can't speak about the supplements as my army doesn't use one. I can tell you I already basically played Doctrines as the FAQ forces me to. It just seems like they want marines conduct war and worked for how I built my Primaris army anyways. I still think Bolter Displine need addressing more to keep marine players from castling up with static gunlines which I don't feel is how even the shooty-est of marine chapters want to operate. But I like the idea of letting the latest FAQ sink in before making additional adjustments over the more typical that faction had their fun on top now exterminatus them back to low tier for awhile.

None of that has to do with Primaris stat lines though.

Nice novella. I'm thrilled that you run your army as pure primaris, but just because you see them as a new faction and play them so doesn't make it fact. Primaris are part of the loyalist space marine faction, and that faction has hands down the largest and most complete selection of units in the game. Any holes in your army are of your own choosing, I understand that as I refuse to run daemons in my own army of Night Lords.

But you're not the only sm player, most use everything available to them, and the rules they've recently received makes almost every single option a good one. Most armies don't have that luxury right now.

Yes space marines needed help competitively, and they got it. Sorry if players of other factions thinking that maybe gw should do a little to bring their army some of the support they've shown space marines over the past few months bothers you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 04:25:43


 
   
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Across the Rubicon

It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.
[Thumb - received_613875899460059.jpeg]

   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.

It isn't the fact that primaris has a new stat line that bothers players, or me at least, it's the fact that gw doesn't seem to have any interest in improving anything else beyond throwing strategems at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.

You got a name for that source other than Reddit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 04:32:11


 
   
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Eye of Terror

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.

Think of it more like a reaction to a virus.

There aren't many baseline infantry that shoot 30" at AP -1. And have 2 wounds. If they were 46ppm, I would not care. At their current cost, it feels like GW is screwing with every other faction.

I realize GW needed to do something to get people using Primaris Marines, but there's something unsettling about the rules. They outrange other factions, they have more wounds than other factions, they have special mechanics that go beyond those of other factions, and they have tanks that outshoot anything from other factions.

I hate to think what GW will eventually need to do with them to achieve better balance.

   
Made in au
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Found it in one of the discords just floating around, looked for source and it was "Some italian facebook page".

Could be real, could not. But in any case mehreens getting more stuff sounds about right.
   
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.
So another AUD$390 box I presume. I mean if the Orks are just Ghaz + 3-6 Meganobz it'll be a complete wash.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.
I prefer to dump on Primaris rationally: They're super-duper Marines that look like they belong to a different scale of game, and their fluff rubs me the wrong way. I think they look cool though (especially Eliminators), I just wish they weren't newer betterer Marines.

I also know that Primaris exist because GW had no worlds left to conquer when it came to Marines (except plastic Thunderfire Cannons, Tech-Marines and Servitors, for which I will forever be sad that we never got), so they needed to invent new Marines from whole cloth and break their entire universe to justify their existence.

Of course, hearing you talk about them makes me want to get a small faction of them...



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/05 04:55:45


   
Made in us
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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.


Omgomgomg new MANZ. SQUUUUEEEEE.

Here's hoping they become the Paladins of Orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 05:04:08


   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're super-duper Marines that look like they belong to a different scale of game,

You mean a game using the sort of scale where marines are actually bigger than normal humans?

and their fluff rubs me the wrong way. I think they look cool though (especially Eliminators), I just wish they weren't newer betterer Marines.
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.


As for actual topic, GW should just give at least the more veteran CSM the primaris statline. This is what marines need to function and some ancient warp-fuelled monstrosities should be at least as tough as primaris and probably more. I really have no interest in playing spiky wimp marines.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Found it in one of the discords just floating around, looked for source and it was "Some italian facebook page".

Could be real, could not. But in any case mehreens getting more stuff sounds about right.

Well damn, that's some solid reporting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Speaking of more marine support, looks like there's *another* new primaris statline coming on the way.


Omgomgomg new MANZ. SQUUUUEEEEE.

Here's hoping they become the Paladins of Orks.


Stop it. This is probably 2w cult troops all over again. Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 05:10:49


 
   
Made in fi
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Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

Like they did with Jain Zar and Drazhar? Absolutely.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator



The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Crimson wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

Like they did with Jain Zar and Drazhar? Absolutely.

No offense to the Eldar, but there's several Phoenix Lords but only one Prophet of the Wwwaaaaggghhh!!!

This would be like sticking Failbaddon in a box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're super-duper Marines that look like they belong to a different scale of game,

You mean a game using the sort of scale where marines are actually bigger than normal humans?

and their fluff rubs me the wrong way. I think they look cool though (especially Eliminators), I just wish they weren't newer betterer Marines.
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.


As for actual topic, GW should just give at least the more veteran CSM the primaris statline. This is what marines need to function and some ancient warp-fuelled monstrosities should be at least as tough as primaris and probably more. I really have no interest in playing spiky wimp marines.

Ok, how do they bend the lore around that? Every traitor marine isn't a chaos worshiper remember? And we've already gotten new models and they're bigger but still not primaris sized.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 05:19:13


 
   
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 techsoldaten wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.

Think of it more like a reaction to a virus.

There aren't many baseline infantry that shoot 30" at AP -1. And have 2 wounds. If they were 46ppm, I would not care. At their current cost, it feels like GW is screwing with every other faction.

I realize GW needed to do something to get people using Primaris Marines, but there's something unsettling about the rules. They outrange other factions, they have more wounds than other factions, they have special mechanics that go beyond those of other factions, and they have tanks that outshoot anything from other factions.

I hate to think what GW will eventually need to do with them to achieve better balance.


Intercessors might be a little too point efficient even after the FAQ. I could definitely see their ppm creeping back to old costs. I think the 30" range is only an issue due to Bolter Discipline exacerbated by the Tactical Doctrine AP buff. I mean no one was really bothering with Stalker Bolt Rifles pre-current codex. I suspect now that marines can't stall out in Devastator, the number of Stalker Bolter Intercessors will also reside. Same goes for regular Bolt Rifles. I haven't seen the range be that much of an issue unless terrain is relatively sparse allows more lanes of medium-long range fire and can made worst by no where to find cover. I mean Thousand Sons warp bolters throw that kind of fire power standard, and I haven't really seen nearly as much blow back from it.

I think if this combination of range, AP was so dangerous I would think Heavy Bolter teams/Havocs would be more viable. Or at very least CSM MSU with Heavy Bolters. Again, I think that comes down to Intercessors being a not enough points for what they do and Bolter Discipline turning all marines into gun turrets. Funny enough, I feel for a good deal of targets I get the same amount of work out of Auto Bolt Rifles which also have the same range with a Move, better range with an Advance, with a high rate-of-fire but lower AP. Which for my army that has to foot slog good portion of its infantry is much better as I start to capture territory/objectives. And I don't see nearly as many complaints about that compared to the Bolt Rifle Intercessor.

As for tanks, Repulsors are huge point sinks. I don't think they generally work on their own as well as you might think. Maybe a marine supplement such as the Iron Hands have a way to get work out them, but my codex only army doesn't get as much out of them as I would like since I have very limited Anti-Tank. I know I certainly don't like tangling with Imperial Guard armored armies because if feels like I have a Tiger versus too many Sherman Fireflies to win. And once my repulsor(s) is down, I don't have much left let alone anti-tank.

Again, I think a lot people on Dakka Dakka are over exaggerating the power of the Intercessor. Before the new Codex, the Bolt Rifle Intercessor was a middling Troop choice that received points drops. Even now, I am not entirely convince that Tacticals can't provide the same amount of threat but in a different more deliberate way. However, they aren't as overt with Raw stats to reveal it as easy as Intercessors through Mathhammer. So I think somewhere before Bolter Discipline was a beta rule and now is where fair power of Intercessors can be found. Most of these arguments concerning Intercessors have been on things they have had since their introduction but weren't that big of an issue two years ago, but suddenly are now.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Do you actually think they'd lock something like fething Ghaz in a box for six months?

Like they did with Jain Zar and Drazhar? Absolutely.

No offense to the Eldar, but there's several Phoenix Lords but only one Prophet of the Wwwaaaaggghhh!!!

This would be like sticking Failbaddon in a box.


Are you ready for Failgaz? I'll bet my teeth this is the lore:
1. Gaz lands on wolfy mc wolferson planet
2. Gaz feths gak up
3. Ragnar shows up and tries to boop gaz
4. Rag loses, retreats and in order to survive must become a primaris
5. Rag returns and bashes gaz
6. Mid combat Rag remembers he's actually Leman Russ, unlocking his full 10 attacks one one shotting Gaz



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're super-duper Marines that look like they belong to a different scale of game,

You mean a game using the sort of scale where marines are actually bigger than normal humans?

and their fluff rubs me the wrong way. I think they look cool though (especially Eliminators), I just wish they weren't newer betterer Marines.
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.


As for actual topic, GW should just give at least the more veteran CSM the primaris statline. This is what marines need to function and some ancient warp-fuelled monstrosities should be at least as tough as primaris and probably more. I really have no interest in playing spiky wimp marines.

Ok, how do they bend the lore around that? Every traitor marine isn't a chaos worshiper remember? And we've already gotten new models and they're bigger but still not primaris sized.


CSM should have access to pre-horus wargear.
Aint no one enjoying the snowflakiness of current mehreens.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 05:32:11


 
   
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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
As for tanks, Repulsors are huge point sinks. I don't think they generally work on their own as well as you might think. Maybe a marine supplement such as the Iron Hands have a way to get work out them, but my codex only army doesn't get as much out of them as I would like since I have very limited Anti-Tank. I know I certainly don't like tangling with Imperial Guard armored armies because if feels like I have a Tiger versus too many Sherman Fireflies to win. And once my repulsor(s) is down, I don't have much left let alone anti-tank.

Eh, I prefer using a Mause on them myself.

Again, I think a lot people on Dakka Dakka are over exaggerating the power of the Intercessor. Before the new Codex, the Bolt Rifle Intercessor was a middling Troop choice that received points drops. Even now, I am not entirely convince that Tacticals can't provide the same amount of threat but in a different more deliberate way. However, they aren't as overt with Raw stats to reveal it as easy as Intercessors through Mathhammer. So I think somewhere before Bolter Discipline was a beta rule and now is where fair power of Intercessors can be found. Most of these arguments concerning Intercessors have been on things they have had since their introduction but weren't that big of an issue two years ago, but suddenly are now.

Y'know we had a whole thread on tacticals vs intercessors. Went on for days.

Look, like I said, I think most people's problem with loyalist marines is that gw has been paying loads of attention on them while mostly ignoring others, especially some xenos factions. I'd just like them to stop playing with their new toys for long enough to give my bitter old veterans some attention. I got no problem with primaris, they die just like everything else.

Except rievers. They're a complete rippoff of terror squads. Feth those guys.
   
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 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.

Think of it more like a reaction to a virus.

There aren't many baseline infantry that shoot 30" at AP -1. And have 2 wounds. If they were 46ppm, I would not care. At their current cost, it feels like GW is screwing with every other faction.

I realize GW needed to do something to get people using Primaris Marines, but there's something unsettling about the rules. They outrange other factions, they have more wounds than other factions, they have special mechanics that go beyond those of other factions, and they have tanks that outshoot anything from other factions.

I hate to think what GW will eventually need to do with them to achieve better balance.


Intercessors might be a little too point efficient even after the FAQ. I could definitely see their ppm creeping back to old costs. I think the 30" range is only an issue due to Bolter Discipline exacerbated by the Tactical Doctrine AP buff. I mean no one was really bothering with Stalker Bolt Rifles pre-current codex. I suspect now that marines can't stall out in Devastator, the number of Stalker Bolter Intercessors will also reside. Same goes for regular Bolt Rifles. I haven't seen the range be that much of an issue unless terrain is relatively sparse allows more lanes of medium-long range fire and can made worst by no where to find cover. I mean Thousand Sons warp bolters throw that kind of fire power standard, and I haven't really seen nearly as much blow back from it.

I think if this combination of range, AP was so dangerous I would think Heavy Bolter teams/Havocs would be more viable. Or at very least CSM MSU with Heavy Bolters. Again, I think that comes down to Intercessors being a not enough points for what they do and Bolter Discipline turning all marines into gun turrets. Funny enough, I feel for a good deal of targets I get the same amount of work out of Auto Bolt Rifles which also have the same range with a Move, better range with an Advance, with a high rate-of-fire but lower AP. Which for my army that has to foot slog good portion of its infantry is much better as I start to capture territory/objectives. And I don't see nearly as many complaints about that compared to the Bolt Rifle Intercessor.

As for tanks, Repulsors are huge point sinks. I don't think they generally work on their own as well as you might think. Maybe a marine supplement such as the Iron Hands have a way to get work out them, but my codex only army doesn't get as much out of them as I would like since I have very limited Anti-Tank. I know I certainly don't like tangling with Imperial Guard armored armies because if feels like I have a Tiger versus too many Sherman Fireflies to win. And once my repulsor(s) is down, I don't have much left let alone anti-tank.

Again, I think a lot people on Dakka Dakka are over exaggerating the power of the Intercessor. Before the new Codex, the Bolt Rifle Intercessor was a middling Troop choice that received points drops. Even now, I am not entirely convince that Tacticals can't provide the same amount of threat but in a different more deliberate way. However, they aren't as overt with Raw stats to reveal it as easy as Intercessors through Mathhammer. So I think somewhere before Bolter Discipline was a beta rule and now is where fair power of Intercessors can be found. Most of these arguments concerning Intercessors have been on things they have had since their introduction but weren't that big of an issue two years ago, but suddenly are now.


My post was comparing Space marines to chaos space marines as a species/faction. As long as Primaris are in the space marines codex they are space marines. I honestly don't care about primaris or old marines. Both get the same rules/startegems and are led by the same chapter masters giving re-roll everything auras.. Power armour is power armour to me. Only one power armour faction/sepcies is getting all fo the models releases and all of the rules currently. Its the paradigm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 05:47:32


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Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Dude it's 30" AP-2 basic troops with 2 wounds.
What else do you want lmfao
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
It only bothers me with people use crab mentality and/or dump on Primaris irrationally. Which I think complaining that Primaris as new unit and having new stat lines is.
I prefer to dump on Primaris rationally: They're super-duper Marines that look like they belong to a different scale of game, and their fluff rubs me the wrong way. I think they look cool though (especially Eliminators), I just wish they weren't newer betterer Marines.

I also know that Primaris exist because GW had no worlds left to conquer when it came to Marines (except plastic Thunderfire Cannons, Tech-Marines and Servitors, for which I will forever be sad that we never got), so they needed to invent new Marines from whole cloth and break their entire universe to justify their existence.

Of course, hearing you talk about them makes me want to get a small faction of them...


I can agree that the scale of Primaris makes it very hard to inter-mix them with Firstborn. The scale difference of the model compared to the lore is jarring in a way I think most could forgive with Space Marines and Guardsmen.

As for the Fluff, yeah; they were kinda ham fisted in. But in a setting where technology is regressing and worked on with superstitious rituals and rites such as 40k, it really paints expanding stuff into a corner. There isn't a whole lot of things beyond: We had it all along, it was always in use in ______ previously unknown sector, the Emperor/a Primarch said we could, etc. I mostly gloss past the genesis of of Primaris . Because like Patton Oswald, I don't care where the stuff I like comes from I just want to like it. Or something like that. I focus on my chapter's lore from the Indomitus Crusade as grey shields to their exploits in the latest Battle of Baal where they learned a harsh lesson that even some of their own battle brothers (the Blood Angels in this case) despise and mistrust them even after shedding blood for them. I mention it, because few people online really mention how some Ultima founding chapters must feel as they know are looked down upon by some of the Firstborn as much as they looked up to them holding the line for 10,000 years. I like the grim dark of Primaris literally slowed, and even stopped it for a time, the doomsday clock and were hated for it by their own battle brothers. That must be hard to take in even for a psycho-indoctrinated super soldier from a different time.

Plus, I really like the models.

Again, I think it is best to think of the Primaris as a whole new faction that is actually 4 to 5 factions. The large number of releases make far more sense that way especially considering how popular space marines are. I also think that the new Codex: Space Marines signaled a point where a Primaris only army can work. I want the same for my Black Legion army as well as my Genestealer Army. Both of which I think are really struggling along with a few other factions. I don't think trying to tear down Primaris is the way to do it. I mean I left the supplements on the shelf, because I felt codex was enough power (and it didn't fit my chapter's lore as they are Unknown successors). Certainly some nerfs can be in order. I am fine with that. Increasing the cost of Intercessors a point or two. That isn't going to change my army much. I usually have a couple of Reivers I tack on making odd sized squads that I could cut back on. I want all players to feel they have a fighting chance at winning most games before the first die is thrown. I don't know if that will ever be the case. I think concerning this thread CSM got a long way to go if they want to rock and roll.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/05 06:00:25


   
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Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, how do they bend the lore around that? Every traitor marine isn't a chaos worshiper remember?

The ones represented by Codex Chaos Space Marines certainly are! If you want to play non-chos traitor marines you can just use the vanilla marine codex.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Just what Chaos players want: To have to use another Codex to rep their armies again.

 Crimson wrote:
You mean a game using the sort of scale where marines are actually bigger than normal humans?
It ain't Marines that are out of scale. It's the Guardsmen. So sayeth Jes Goodwin.

 Crimson wrote:
Just forget that the minimarines exist and then the primaris are just marines.
I won't be forgetting Marines exist. No thanks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/05 06:13:00


   
 
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