Is Gabriel Seth right about Guilliman?

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**Voss**

Duskweaver wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

But he's also very angry about what happened as described. So it can't be wish fulfillment- what he wanted or expected to hear. Because what he heard is 'Dad thinks I'm a useful tool for the current situation, but never loved or cared about my brothers and I.'
The Emperor comes across as too powerful but also too injured/weary to hide his emotions they way he used to, behind that facade of impersonal beneficence. That's been burned away in 10000 years.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

Sadly I think the ship of Roboute being a tyrant in the making has set sail. Shame, I liked the idea of him being a tyrant in the making.

I think there's more potential if he's well meaning. the "secret Tyrant out to lord it over everyone cause lol evil" is dull, over used, and a bit childish, now the well meaning dictator who slowly but surely becomes everything he hates as he makes more and more comprimises for the good of the nation is a much more compelling story and one that I think Gulliman is partiuclarly suited for.

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

Sadly I think the ship of Roboute being a tyrant in the making has set sail. Shame, I liked the idea of him being a tyrant in the making.

I think there's more potential if he's well meaning. the "secret Tyrant out to lord it over everyone cause lol evil" is dull, over used, and a bit childish, now the well meaning dictator who slowly but surely becomes everything he hates as he makes more and more comprimises for the good of the nation is a much more compelling story and one that I think Gulliman is partiuclarly suited for.

Personally I lump both of those things under the same label.

**BrianDavion**

pm713 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

Sadly I think the ship of Roboute being a tyrant in the making has set sail. Shame, I liked the idea of him being a tyrant in the making.

I think there's more potential if he's well meaning. the "secret Tyrant out to lord it over everyone cause lol evil" is dull, over used, and a bit childish, now the well meaning dictator who slowly but surely becomes everything he hates as he makes more and more comprimises for the good of the nation is a much more compelling story and one that I think Gulliman is partiuclarly suited for.

Personally I lump both of those things under the same label.

one is more of a natural evolution though and is, IMHO almost inevitable.

**Bran Dawri**

LordofHats wrote:
pm713 wrote:

The Palace is a big place. Sometimes people get lost, why just last week that rogue Inquisitor took a wrong turn and fell on a spear five times. Tragic, that.

"Yes... tragic."

"Look, we've basically done nothing but brood for 10,000 years. The armory was a little messy, the boys were out of practice, things got out of hand. Complete accident, we swear."

...

I wonder if they compare notes and keep score with the Dark Angels and who's winning the "How many inquisitive people got lost/had accidents/"never arrived, not seen him no sirree" in YOUR supersized maze-castle full of secrets?" game.

**Duskweaver**

Voss wrote:But he's also very angry about what happened as described. So it can't be wish fulfillment- what he wanted or expected to hear.

Not what he wanted to hear, but it could still be what he expected if he was feeling particularly depressed/angry at the time (and we know he went into that 'conversation' absolutely horrified at what the Imperium had turned into while he was away). I still think that's giving Guy Haley too much credit for subtlety, though. His idea of clever writing is naming planets after archaic terms for Yorkshire, after all.

BrianDavion wrote:I think there's more potential if he's well meaning. the "secret Tyrant out to lord it over everyone cause lol evil" is dull, over used, and a bit childish, now the well meaning dictator who slowly but surely becomes everything he hates as he makes more and more comprimises for the good of the nation is a much more compelling story and one that I think Gulliman is partiuclarly suited for.

Agreed. I like to think of Guilliman as Napoleon as the French* see him, as opposed to Napoleon as the English** see him.

* (and Andrew Roberts)
** (with the notable exception of Andrew Roberts)

**nareik**

BrianDavion wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Duskweaver wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
That smacks of unreliable narrator syndrome to me.

Well, I did include the words "intentionally" and "consciously nefarious" for a reason. Sure it's possible that RG's conversation with the Emperor was all just a psychotic delusion. Or that he only 'heard' what he wanted or expected to 'hear' from the Emperor (who, after all, has form with this sort of thing). But all the evidence we have is that RG believes it happened as described.

I'm also not convinced Guy Haley, for all that I enjoy his work, is actually capable of the level of long-game subtlety necessary to be setting us up for a reveal that RG is really just a power-hungry tyrant. I just think it's a bit of a stretch.

Sadly I think the ship of Roboute being a tyrant in the making has set sail. Shame, I liked the idea of him being a tyrant in the making.

I think there's more potential if he's well meaning. the "secret Tyrant out to lord it over everyone cause lol evil" is dull, over used, and a bit childish, now the well meaning dictator who slowly but surely becomes everything he hates as he makes more and more comprimises for the good of the nation is a much more compelling story and one that I think Gulliman is partiuclarly suited for.

it will make for some great dialogue when Abaddon eventually faces off against him...

Then again, Abaddon is all about putting the Imperium back into the hands of the space marines who united it, so maybe he’ll just high five Ol Gil and be like ‘looks like a space marine is in charge now. I won.”

**goundry**

It is amusing that abandon and guilliman effectively have the same view of where humanity should be even if it is from either side of a frosted window.

Every one always talks about how each of the primarchs each had there own roll/specialty but guilliman has always been a bit strange to place due to his building ultramar as his own kingdom. I've often wondered if guilliman's roll was to be the emperors plan B, in which case seth probably is right even if guilliman doesn't know it.