Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically Lexicanum states they have eight Battle Barges, over 20 strike cruisers and then add escorts to the mix. That's humongous. Nearly the size of Space Wolves fleet who themselves have only had to split up once to form a successor chapter...

And considering Ultramarines are Guilliman's baby, and Guilliman was the one who made Codex Astartes and spoke of dangers of too strong Astartes forces, it seems kind of weird that his own Legion's direct successor Chapter has such a huge naval power in its disposal. Especially when a Chapter can normally call itself lucky and well supplied with three Battle Barges and up to ten Strike Cruisers with a lot of Chapters having to be satisfied with less than that.

So how do Ultramarines not raise suspicions from other factions with their immense amount of naval power, or is the Lexicanum list wrong?

I have heard people say Ultramarines Fleet is only five Battle Barges strong as well.

Nah the Space Wolves fleet is stupidly big - given that they were confirmed as being only slightly over normal Chapter strength they were then stated to have several hundred ships and huge fortresses not that they could man them even if it was one squad per ship....as is normal Marine practice. Especially given they don't take their people from the planet.

The Ultramarines, unlike the Wolves have an excellent industrial base, a well organised and eductaed population to recruit not just grnunts but skilled crew for their fleet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It makes sense that Wolves have a bigger than standard fleet and it would be much weirder if they didn't.

There is bigger than normal then there is the fanw that the SW codexes have become.

So how do they operate all these ships - 1 Marine each and the rest thralls from another star system?

They could just put people from other planets on the ships. You don't even need a Marine to be on each ship, you could have them on one ship and others in a group have just thralls.

I know SW hate is the cool thing but at a certain point you're making up problems.

It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Basically Lexicanum states they have eight Battle Barges, over 20 strike cruisers and then add escorts to the mix. That's humongous. Nearly the size of Space Wolves fleet who themselves have only had to split up once to form a successor chapter...

And considering Ultramarines are Guilliman's baby, and Guilliman was the one who made Codex Astartes and spoke of dangers of too strong Astartes forces, it seems kind of weird that his own Legion's direct successor Chapter has such a huge naval power in its disposal. Especially when a Chapter can normally call itself lucky and well supplied with three Battle Barges and up to ten Strike Cruisers with a lot of Chapters having to be satisfied with less than that.

So how do Ultramarines not raise suspicions from other factions with their immense amount of naval power, or is the Lexicanum list wrong?

I have heard people say Ultramarines Fleet is only five Battle Barges strong as well.

Nah the Space Wolves fleet is stupidly big - given that they were confirmed as being only slightly over normal Chapter strength they were then stated to have several hundred ships and huge fortresses not that they could man them even if it was one squad per ship....as is normal Marine practice. Especially given they don't take their people from the planet.

The Ultramarines, unlike the Wolves have an excellent industrial base, a well organised and eductaed population to recruit not just grnunts but skilled crew for their fleet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It makes sense that Wolves have a bigger than standard fleet and it would be much weirder if they didn't.

There is bigger than normal then there is the fanw that the SW codexes have become.

So how do they operate all these ships - 1 Marine each and the rest thralls from another star system?

They could just put people from other planets on the ships. You don't even need a Marine to be on each ship, you could have them on one ship and others in a group have just thralls.

I know SW hate is the cool thing but at a certain point you're making up problems.

Thats NOT how Space marine ships work - they are commanded by at least a squad of Marines, more if possible to deal with any baording they need to undertake or repel.

It makes sense to have a large fleet - not a stupdily huge fleet that bigger than all the the other First Founders put together cos Space Wolves - thats fanfiction level BS partly cos they can;t even operate them effectively.

And yeah I have plenty of Space Wolves in my collection.

The space Wolves have a habit of taking ships as trophies during wars.

They have at least 1 imperial cruiser acting as a battle barge, taken in battle

Hellebore wrote:
The space Wolves have a habit of taking ships as trophies during wars.

They have at least 1 imperial cruiser acting as a battle barge, taken in battle

And they have lost ships as well as some turning traitor.

Lots of marines do this - but even the most fleet based Chapters have only a fraction of the fleet that the Wolves now have plus multiple Ramalies class Star Forts etc etc etc.

Its just more Wolfw$%k .

 Mr Morden wrote:

Hellebore wrote:
The space Wolves have a habit of taking ships as trophies during wars.

They have at least 1 imperial cruiser acting as a battle barge, taken in battle

And they have lost ships as well as some turning traitor.

Lots of marines do this - but even the most fleet based Chapters have only a fraction of the fleet that the Wolves now have plus multiple Ramalies class Star Forts etc etc etc.

Its just more Wolfw$%k .

Most marines don't because marines aren't supposed to own offensive cruisers. They were given strike cruisers and battle barges specifically because of thiS.

They are supposed to not be allowed proper ships of the line, specifically ones with lances (the new marine escort with a Lance is considered a dangerous creation for this reason).


But the space Wolves have clearly shown how little they care about imperial law, grimnar has carried a chaos axe since 2nd ed.

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

 Tastyfish wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that equipment sent to the Wolf Brothers was reclaimed rather than just left for the first ambitious pirate to nick.

pm713 wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that equipment sent to the Wolf Brothers was reclaimed rather than just left for the first ambitious pirate to nick.

Or sent to other chapters in need of new ships.

The wolf brothers didn't just turn into mad beasts, that's just the official line from the Space Wolves.

They also turned to Chaos and went to the Eye (a bunch return in Wrath of Magnus with the Thousand Sons and others are working with the Red Corsairs). Presumably they didn't walk there, and took their ships with them.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that equipment sent to the Wolf Brothers was reclaimed rather than just left for the first ambitious pirate to nick.

Or sent to other chapters in need of new ships.

That seems really out of line with how marines in general act. They don't like changing paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tastyfish wrote:
The wolf brothers didn't just turn into mad beasts, that's just the official line from the Space Wolves.

They also turned to Chaos and went to the Eye (a bunch return in Wrath of Magnus with the Thousand Sons and others are working with the Red Corsairs). Presumably they didn't walk there, and took their ships with them.

It's what happened to most of them. I don't think the minority that didn't managed to take literally every ship or even most.

 Tastyfish wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

after suffering immense loses during the Horus Heresy, Also just because you have that many ships doesn't mean you can keep them in service. by rights most of those space wolf ships should be in MOTHBALLS

I think if we're thinking what happens in the case of the Wolf Brothers - a generation of marines or two after the Heresy, things start going wrong, various apothecaries and wolf priests doing what they can to fix it whilst things get increasingly worse. Eventually the various Great Companies are called back to Kaeriol as they're no longer functioning reliable as marine formations and if a cure is found they need to be there to receive it as soon as possible.

Then they get the order to stand down and are being 'disbanded' without a cure, some decide that they aren't going to get put down like dogs and turn traitor - I feel that's not an event that leaves a nice intact fleet behind to repurpose but more one that leaves Kaeriol a smoking ruin as the saner marines try to prevent their more rapid brothers from breaking free. Resisted by the traitors influenced by Chaos and those who feel betrayed and just want to serve out the remainder of their time before being lost to the madness (whilst the loyalists know they are on a ticking clock themselves).

Probably one of the biggest space battles in the early post-Heresy years when half a Legion tears itself apart.

Not to mention when the remnants are then hunting down by the other half of the Legion and the Navy and newly formed Inquisition - assuming that some aren't able to get there quick enough to blockade the system. With the Heresy in living memory, and the steps taken to stop it happening again (splitting the army and fleet, the Codex), a massive failure on a grand scale like this is not going to be dealt with in a hands-off relaxed fashion.

It's probably the reason why the Great Companies are more of less chapter sized things now...

Wolf fleet is going to be unusual, with a few more prizes and gifts than other fleets as the Wolves do seem to be particularly loyal to individuals rather than being the sort to swear longstanding oaths to a concept or lineage - the rewards of which bring a big one off reward (Firestorms!) rather than a continual commitment to supply and support. More weird stuff that's focused on space combat and probably a little larger than normal, but the Wolves don't have a world capable of supporting extensive orbital docks, or a famous Navy or Mechanicus ally (the opposite, really).

I could see them trading damaged ships and hulks to the Navy and Mechanicus for favours to repair and maintain the ships they are using. Wolves capture more ships than the Ultras can build or started with, but can't keep them maintained and active.

It's probably the reason why the Great Companies are more of less chapter sized things now...

nah that's covered in Wolfsbane

BrianDavion wrote:

 Tastyfish wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's hardly Space Wolf Hate, I LIKE the Space Wolves (in many ways they're one of the armies that is most 40k, absurdly over the top in all the best ways. If I had to pick a single 40k model to sum up 40k visually for someone it's be eaither a space wolf, or an exorcist tank) but their fleet numbers don't, given the data we have, make a lot of sense. we know they have a large number of chapter serfs, called Kaerls, and we know the Fenris system has other inhabited planets, but it still seems abnormally large

In comparison the dark angels have a fleet of 8 Battlebarges and only 16 strike cruisers. and they're a crusading chapter with no fixed homeworld.

it seems odd for the space wolves to have a larger navy then the dark angels.

But as I said the Dark Angels fleet was split five different ways.

Wolves have the same amount of barges and the other craft added together aren't that unreasonable for something that should match the approximate fleet of the Dark Angels and all their first successors.

While you may not personally hate on Wolves, there is a general trend of hate towards them from a lot of people.

However, the wolf fleet was split in two (and a bit - some went renegade rather than being official successors, and it's not easy to flee to the Eye of Terror on foot...) and their Legion wasn't as large as the Dark Angels were to begin with.

after suffering immense loses during the Horus Heresy, Also just because you have that many ships doesn't mean you can keep them in service. by rights most of those space wolf ships should be in MOTHBALLS

You literally fill it with humans and leave them to it, it's not hard.

You can't claim that the Space Wolf fleet should be abnormally small for a Legion because of heresy losses when everyone had that.

It's probably the reason why the Great Companies are more of less chapter sized things now...

Oh FFS have they changed this yet again.

I had always thought the Wolves were one of the larger chapters maybe not Black Templars large but with around 2-3000 marines.

Then the same stupid Codex that dropped the numbers to just around 1500 and then gave them a Warship each....

You literally fill it with humans and leave them to it, it's not hard.

Then you are creating your own Navy much much larger than a Sector fleet - why would anyone be worried about that - I know that the Wolves have plot shields light years thick but thats just plain stupid and against everything in the entire Imperium.

GW might as well as say the Space Wolves can do whatever they want as no-one including the Emperror and Guillman are allowed to question them.

Last I checked Wolves were only a few hundred marines larger than other Chapters. Do we have a quote for the Companies being chapter size?
They've been structurally similar for ages but not sizewise.

pm713 wrote:
Last I checked Wolves were only a few hundred marines larger than other Chapters. Do we have a quote for the Companies being chapter size?
They've been structurally similar for ages but not sizewise.

I have not seen them but not got the current codex as disillusioned with the lore for them.....

As I read it it was always vague how many Wolves there were and I think it was 6th or 7th that put numbers on them, same as they dropped the numebrs for the Templars. It might be they are up again as the Templars are but not seen it.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I checked Wolves were only a few hundred marines larger than other Chapters. Do we have a quote for the Companies being chapter size?
They've been structurally similar for ages but not sizewise.

I have not seen them but not got the current codex as disillusioned with the lore for them.....

As I read it it was always vague how many Wolves there were and I think it was 6th or 7th that put numbers on them, same as they dropped the numebrs for the Templars. It might be they are up again as the Templars are but not seen it.

As I remember they never gave solid numbers for everyone but Ragnar had about 200 and the largest company. So at absolute most the Space Wolves had just shy of 2600 Marines which is a thousand more than average chapters including drivers etc.

So a significantly higher more than normal amount but not so much they're near Templar level.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I checked Wolves were only a few hundred marines larger than other Chapters. Do we have a quote for the Companies being chapter size?
They've been structurally similar for ages but not sizewise.

I have not seen them but not got the current codex as disillusioned with the lore for them.....

As I read it it was always vague how many Wolves there were and I think it was 6th or 7th that put numbers on them, same as they dropped the numebrs for the Templars. It might be they are up again as the Templars are but not seen it.

As I remember they never gave solid numbers for everyone but Ragnar had about 200 and the largest company. So at absolute most the Space Wolves had just shy of 2600 Marines which is a thousand more than average chapters including drivers etc.

So a significantly higher more than normal amount but not so much they're near Templar level.

Pretty sure some were smaller, dug the book out and Ragnar has 189 so and it yeah its about 2000 Marines total Might be the previous one that gave numbers for the other Companies

And this is why the active fleet size sounds so bizzare - yeah we have 8 battlebarges and 30(!)+ strike cruisers and about 250 escorts cos we is the wolves.....

4 or 5 Battlebarges plus a dozen Strike Cruisers (one for each Great Company) and and maybe 30 escorts would have given them one of the most powerful Astartes fleets in the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:

The Space Wolves Legion never split into Chapters like other First Foundings. All their spaceships stayed where they started so why would they vanish? If you had a bunch of spare space ships you wouldn't go "I'll just chuck these in a sun".

I mean...you say that...but it wouldn't be the first time that happened...

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Last I checked Wolves were only a few hundred marines larger than other Chapters. Do we have a quote for the Companies being chapter size?
They've been structurally similar for ages but not sizewise.

I have not seen them but not got the current codex as disillusioned with the lore for them.....

As I read it it was always vague how many Wolves there were and I think it was 6th or 7th that put numbers on them, same as they dropped the numebrs for the Templars. It might be they are up again as the Templars are but not seen it.

As I remember they never gave solid numbers for everyone but Ragnar had about 200 and the largest company. So at absolute most the Space Wolves had just shy of 2600 Marines which is a thousand more than average chapters including drivers etc.

So a significantly higher more than normal amount but not so much they're near Templar level.

Pretty sure some were smaller, dug the book out and Ragnar has 189 so and it yeah its about 2000 Marines total Might be the previous one that gave numbers for the other Companies

And this is why the active fleet size sounds so bizzare - yeah we have 8 battlebarges and 30(!)+ strike cruisers and about 250 escorts cos we is the wolves.....

4 or 5 Battlebarges plus a dozen Strike Cruisers (one for each Great Company) and and maybe 30 escorts would have given them one of the most powerful Astartes fleets in the Imperium.

they also gave numbers for the champions of fenris in their supplement. but yeah, over all the best guesstimates for chapter size of the space wolves was 1500-2000 marines or so. And that's assuming the other great companies where likewise bigger then a standard company and you didn't have others that where only say.. 80 space wolves