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chimera0205 wrote:
Litterally any planet with any sort of actual defense force can hold off a company of astartes easy.

Strange - isn't it usually a case of the guardsmen can't defeat a well-entrenched PDF, and then the Space Marine come down, dismantle the entire PDF's defences and command structure in a matter of hours, and leave the rest of the demoralised, feeling defenders for their allies to mop up?

I mean, that is OVERWHELMINGLY the picture we're painted. If "any actual defence force" could stop Space Marines, they'd be pretty useless, wouldn't they.

Hell there are indivual guard regiments that can slaughter companys of astartes.

Source? Because that sounds utterly hyperbolic.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
Litterally any planet with any sort of actual defense force can hold off a company of astartes easy.

Strange - isn't it usually a case of the guardsmen can't defeat a well-entrenched PDF, and then the Space Marine come down, dismantle the entire PDF's defences and command structure in a matter of hours, and leave the rest of the demoralised, feeling defenders for their allies to mop up?

I mean, that is OVERWHELMINGLY the picture we're painted. If "any actual defence force" could stop Space Marines, they'd be pretty useless, wouldn't they.

Hell there are indivual guard regiments that can slaughter companys of astartes.

Source? Because that sounds utterly hyperbolic.

Astartes are special forces. They can be extremely effective but they cannot win wars on there own. At least not without a rediclous number of them. The argument wasmt whether or not astartes could do ungoldly amounts of damage agaisnt an enemy as part of a large combined arms force. The question was whether or not a hundred astartes can conquer a planet ON THERE OWN. And the awnser to that is a categorical no. The astartes would have to kill a feth ton of people and those people only need to get lucky a hundred times. You can never conquer a country with just Delta Force and you can't conquer a planet with just Astartes unless you have ALOT of astartes. As far as individual regiments that can slaughter astartes forces well the Catachan 2nd withiut a shadow of a doubt could. Just Sly marbo alone litterally has several companys worth of Choas Astartes kills under his belt. And thr Catachan 2nd is litterally made up of nothing but people who are only slightly less badass then Sly Marbo. Any astartes company bar maybe a Grey Knights or Death Watch company would lose to any Catachan regiment as long as rhe fight took place in a jungle.

The fatal flaw here is that everyone is trying to tie real world logic with 40k fiction. It is correct that in reality space marines would be useful combat multipliers but could not be used in their own. At the same token most most guard forces are incredibly small when compared to what they should be. The Siege of Vraks is supposedly a 17 year siege that kills 14 million Guardsman in what was a casualty heavy battle. That sounds bad until you realize there were 20 million killed in WWI in about 4 years of fighting. The scale issue never makes sense because 40k is a setting that uses planets as stand ins for nations.

Also can you source your claim on Sly Mario killing several companies worth of Chaos Space Marines? There’s no doubt he’s a skilled combatant and has killed marines before along with a titan. But I think you’re stretching the truth a little bit with your claim. For that matter you can’t claim that Space Marines lack the numbers to accomplishing anything and then talk about how an obvious Rambo expy can kill armies. That only works with a suspension of disbelief that would let 100 marines conquer a planet.

It’s a wonder that the imperium didn’t grow a ton of trees to make Cadia into a jungle planet and just leave the catachans there if they’re that good. I think it’s fair to say that they’re are plenty of times that any army could route another on any battlefield. 40k is suppose to be an Any Given Sunday type of setting. No one is invincible.

chimera0205 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

chimera0205 wrote:
Litterally any planet with any sort of actual defense force can hold off a company of astartes easy.

Strange - isn't it usually a case of the guardsmen can't defeat a well-entrenched PDF, and then the Space Marine come down, dismantle the entire PDF's defences and command structure in a matter of hours, and leave the rest of the demoralised, feeling defenders for their allies to mop up?

I mean, that is OVERWHELMINGLY the picture we're painted. If "any actual defence force" could stop Space Marines, they'd be pretty useless, wouldn't they.

Hell there are indivual guard regiments that can slaughter companys of astartes.

Source? Because that sounds utterly hyperbolic.

Astartes are special forces. They can be extremely effective but they cannot win wars on there own. At least not without a rediclous number of them. The argument wasmt whether or not astartes could do ungoldly amounts of damage agaisnt an enemy as part of a large combined arms force. The question was whether or not a hundred astartes can conquer a planet ON THERE OWN. And the awnser to that is a categorical no. The astartes would have to kill a feth ton of people and those people only need to get lucky a hundred times. You can never conquer a country with just Delta Force and you can't conquer a planet with just Astartes unless you have ALOT of astartes.

I didn't claim anywhere that Marines could it solo. I'm just disputing your claim that "any sort of actual defence force can hold off a company of Astartes". Marines would struggle to hold a world on their own. That's why they don't do it. They're more than capable of pacifying/beating a world into submission through pinpoint strikes and massive force concentration - but they lack the manpower to hold it. So, whether Marines can take a world isn't what I was discussing. I was discussing your extremely hyperbolic comments.

Where's your source for your other statement, of individual regiments killing entire companies of Astartes?

As far as individual regiments that can slaughter astartes forces well the Catachan 2nd withiut a shadow of a doubt could.

Absolutely not. Source?

Just Sly marbo alone litterally has several companys worth of Choas Astartes kills under his belt.

Source?

And thr Catachan 2nd is litterally made up of nothing but people who are only slightly less badass then Sly Marbo.

I mean, absolutely not. The Catachan 2nd are elite Catachans, sure, but Marbo is both severely overhyped both in game, and out of game (like, you do know that he's not supposed to be take seriously?), and there's absolutely no record of them being "only slightly less", unless if by "slightly less" you mean orders of magnitude.

Again, just after some sources.

Any astartes company bar maybe a Grey Knights or Death Watch company would lose to any Catachan regiment as long as rhe fight took place in a jungle.

Absolutely fabricated. If that were true, don't you think that the Imperium would just seed jungles on Cadia and just watch the forces of Chaos get slaughtered by these Catachans?

Catachans are good, yes. They're even better in jungles. They're not suddenly supermen in jungles though. What, would Tallarns always beat Space Marines in deserts? Would Valhallans always win in a snowy environment? Of course not.
The main way I see Catachans beating a company of Marines in a jungle is if they shelled the jungle for a few hours. Which really defeats the purpose of the whole exercise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
For that matter you can’t claim that Space Marines lack the numbers to accomplishing anything and then talk about how an obvious Rambo expy can kill armies.

Well, you'd hope that was the case, wouldn't you!

chimera0205 wrote:

Astartes are special forces. They can be extremely effective but they cannot win wars on there own. At least not without a rediclous number of them. The argument wasmt whether or not astartes could do ungoldly amounts of damage agaisnt an enemy as part of a large combined arms force. The question was whether or not a hundred astartes can conquer a planet ON THERE OWN. And the awnser to that is a categorical no. The astartes would have to kill a feth ton of people and those people only need to get lucky a hundred times. You can never conquer a country with just Delta Force and you can't conquer a planet with just Astartes unless you have ALOT of astartes. As far as individual regiments that can slaughter astartes forces well the Catachan 2nd withiut a shadow of a doubt could. Just Sly marbo alone litterally has several companys worth of Choas Astartes kills under his belt. And thr Catachan 2nd is litterally made up of nothing but people who are only slightly less badass then Sly Marbo. Any astartes company bar maybe a Grey Knights or Death Watch company would lose to any Catachan regiment as long as rhe fight took place in a jungle.

Astartes as special forces is actually a very poor comparison.

As you say, you can't conquer a country with the delta force, but marines aren't delta. Well, unless delta get space ships, orbital bombardments, exterminatus class weapons and the absolute willingness to use them, and utter indifference to the consequences of said actions on the survivors. Essentially, Nuke a few cities, burn some swathes of farmland to ensure famine, decapitation strikes on a few high rankers to prove a point and stretch your lads' muscles and make an all frequency broadcast that this is just the start, that you can do so much worse, and they had better fall in line etc etc. The guard following in their wake can occupy and Mop up. Hell, if you want one worse,look at what a few squads of carcharadons did to badab in the final battle.

As to fighting catachans in the jungle, My Raptors will just burn the jungle to the ground from orbit. Along with a few cities and maybe the space port. Then symbolically land, plant a flag, blow some more things up to prove a point before pulling back into orbit to await the surrender. And oh, Raptors are also noted to be pretty damned good when it comes to jungle fighting.

And as I recall, the question wasn't whether a hundred astartes can conquer a planet on their own. But They can pacify a system. It wasn't even a question. I even clarified, even if this wasn't technically true all of the time - From the in universe perspective of the inhabitants, it is very much an accepted fact that space marines can do all of this. Hence your guardsmen would be very very hesitant to pick a fight with them, which was the actual question in point. And furthermore, From a lore perspective, marines do constantly do these things to the point that it's routine.

From a 'realistic' point of view what the lore says they can do is utterly laughable. I am in full agreement. Sm chapters genuinely make absolutely no sense, even with an extra 0 at the end of all the numbers. But I do not dive into 40k to see 'real'. I dive into 40k for escapism. I leave my brain at rhe reception, take what it says at face value and enjoy the ride. Like I said, that's the charm of the setting.

Does anyone remember were that quote about Space Marine actually comes from, and in what context it was made?
Because I remember reading it a long time ago, and thought the context was about political assassination/terrorism, not exactly about single-handedly defeating an entire Planet Defense Force, and then, on top of that, actually controlling an entire planet with an unruly population.
Somewhat like the quote about Vindicare assassins, that one well-placed bullet can end a rebellion. I never imagined that one bullet to ricochet a million times and wipe out everyone who forgot to say a prayer to the Emperor before eating dinner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chimera0205 wrote:

My Raptors

See, here is a bit of a problem. These aren't your Raptors. You don't have to invest yourself into defending their honor online. There are the Emperor's Raptor in the setting, and a bunch of nicely painted minis at your place, that will never do such horrible things like burning down a jungle somewhere.

Oh, I dug out the quote about Sly Marbo:
During the 13th Black Crusade in 999.M41, entire Chaos encampments were discovered empty, their inhabitants slaughtered by headshots fired by an unseen assailant and well-placed explosives, the remainder having fled in utter fear for their lives. The discovery of the corpses of Heretic Astartes added to what was becoming a mystery for the Imperial forces,

I found it in the fandom Wiki, but I am pretty sure they copied it from an official source. Every other mention of him is about fighting all kind of Xenos. Notably, the quote is not about entire CSM companies, but about "encampments". And on top of that, there were also dead CSM. That rather sounds like he frightened a bunch of cultists into desertion by ambushing their superior officers.

Don't forget that space marines have their own starfleet, so they can call in orbital strikes and support much faster and easier than regular IG can, who have to coordinate with the imperial navy, go thru channels, etc.

They also have access to teleporter tech, at least for terminators. (Can regular marines use teleporters or just terminators? Not sure. One selling point on terminators was their armor had teleport homers as I recall.)

Marines also are mentally augmented and indoctrinated, making coordination and synchronization of multiple actions almost instinctive to them, they spend more time practicing than most IG do living.

The differences between IG and marines really go a lot further than what shows up on the tabletop.

Personally I believe the best chapters know how to respect and work with the IG, as they are all part of the defenders of humanity. Some chapters are arrogant and treat the IG with disdain or even contempt. Those are the ones that are more problematic to work with and can cause deep divisions and resentment in what should be a unified force. They are still very powerful, i's just that in operations that require close interaction with the IG they can cause issues when they essentially see the guard as fungible goods and the population as something to use to lure enemy forces into ambushes.

Think about it a minute: If you were on an imperial world under attack, who would you rather see coming to your aid, the iron hands or the salamanders?

Personally I believe the best chapters know how to respect and work with the IG, as they are all part of the defenders of humanity. Some chapters are arrogant and treat the IG with disdain or even contempt. Those are the ones that are more problematic to work with and can cause deep divisions and resentment in what should be a unified force. They are still very powerful, i's just that in operations that require close interaction with the IG they can cause issues when they essentially see the guard as fungible goods and the population as something to use to lure enemy forces into ambushes.

Think about it a minute: If you were on an imperial world under attack, who would you rather see coming to your aid, the iron hands or the salamanders?

I know in the Grey Knights books Alaric believes that when he dies he will go with the Emperor to wait for the final battle against Chaos. Whether this is true or not I don't know, although I hope it is. I figure if anyone knows what's up as far as the immaterium is involved it's the Grey Knights. Anyway, all that's to say that if you believe that, then this life is just the entrance test to go be with the Emperor, so winning isn't as important as upholding your principles and making sure you make it to the big fight at the end of time. If you don't like how the Guard's doing something you shouldn't compromise, compromise is how heretics are made. You should just keep doing your own thing and make them sorry if they get in the way. That's the logic I've always seen in the unpleasant chapters like Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Grey Knights.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Don't forget that space marines have their own starfleet, so they can call in orbital strikes and support much faster and easier than regular IG can, who have to coordinate with the imperial navy, go thru channels, etc.

They also have access to teleporter tech, at least for terminators. (Can regular marines use teleporters or just terminators? Not sure. One selling point on terminators was their armor had teleport homers as I recall.)

Marines also are mentally augmented and indoctrinated, making coordination and synchronization of multiple actions almost instinctive to them, they spend more time practicing than most IG do living.

The differences between IG and marines really go a lot further than what shows up on the tabletop.

Personally I believe the best chapters know how to respect and work with the IG, as they are all part of the defenders of humanity. Some chapters are arrogant and treat the IG with disdain or even contempt. Those are the ones that are more problematic to work with and can cause deep divisions and resentment in what should be a unified force. They are still very powerful, i's just that in operations that require close interaction with the IG they can cause issues when they essentially see the guard as fungible goods and the population as something to use to lure enemy forces into ambushes.

Think about it a minute: If you were on an imperial world under attack, who would you rather see coming to your aid, the iron hands or the salamanders?

I just feel the Imperium would be a lot better off if every chapter was a Salamanders. Or at the very least an Ultramarines. And not yknow Black Templars or Dark Angels. Speaking of which its just downright sad that the Salamanders the nicest chapter is the ONLY original Legion without a single descendant chapter. The Salamanders are the only sons of Vulkan which is both very very bad for the people of the imperium and also non sensical. Like after the past 10 fething millenia since the Horus Heresy the Salamanders havnt saved up enough geneseed to create even a single succuscor chapter? I refuse to believe that.

Salamanders have rumoured successors, and there's nothing stopping a fan creating their own successor Chapter.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, Marines actually have no place in the Imperial Guard's chain of command, in fact are typically prohibited from such except under special circumstances. While certainly there would be issues with a Guard officer going off and starting their own little war, a Space Marine actually holds no rank superiority over the Guard.

A Chapter Master is acknowledged as an Imperial noble on the same scale as a Planetary Governor, so there's that, but a typical marine or sergeant or captain actually has very little direct authority if their reputation and presence aren't enough.

True points, the Imperium does practice a lot of divided power groups like that.

However at the same time, whilst marines might not be part of the chain of command, they are basically angels who act on behalf of the God Emperor whom the IG owe their allegiance to. So whilst Marines might not hold rank, they are basically a higher being and higher in the food chain.

Not only this but even in a considered sense, you could kill the marines. But you'd be heavily mauled and you'd literally turn every other imperial force in the area against you. And you'd likely be branded traitors.

The only people who will be forgiven for exterminating their betters is the Space Wolves that time above Armageddon. When they teleported to the bridge of several inquisitorial command ships in a row and killed everyone there.

Guard infantry, uh, probably not. As mentioned, while you might be able to kill the marines one of them for every 2.5 of you, you'll find yourself being shot by the commissar a few moments later when the marine captain complains to your colonel.

If you're the regiment commander, also probably not. After all A: what do you care about the lives of a couple of infantrymen, they're guardsmen, and B: if your name is on that paper, and somebody comes complaining, now you're a Heretic and there's a paper trail to prove it.



If you have somebody higher ranking than you, and at least of equal standing to the marines [such as another space marine captain, or an Inquisitor], then go ahead, but not on your own initiative are you going to fire on marines. Too many consequences from your own organization.

 Matt Swain wrote:


Think about it a minute: If you were on an imperial world under attack, who would you rather see coming to your aid, the iron hands or the salamanders?

Average Imperial Citizen? They'd be terrified that things had gotten so bad that the Angels had come with fire and wrath. Or be in a religious frenzy that the Angels had come with fire and wrath.
Upper echelon? Depends on the number of skeletons in your closet, and how well you can justify carrying out your duties to the Imperium, coupled with a minor sense of relief that your world might not fall to <invaders/heretics/scum>

The specific naming conventions of various chapters and their personal idiosyncrasies is beyond anyone who isn't way up there AND widely traveled.