Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think the new csm terminators should have been heresy era patterns. Why would the older warriors have the newest marks of armour?

Legacy. Cataphract and Tartaros armor are more recent inventions narratively and model-ey, so in the heritage of the older models they use the "newer" armor.

Probably. But in that same spirit of legacy they should give us back normal dreadnoughts instead of those mutants. Night Lords shouldn't have mutated dreadnoughts. That's one of the reasons I run fw dreads.

I think it's also do to them trying to do renegades and legions at the same time.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think the new csm terminators should have been heresy era patterns. Why would the older warriors have the newest marks of armour?

Legacy. Cataphract and Tartaros armor are more recent inventions narratively and model-ey, so in the heritage of the older models they use the "newer" armor.

Probably. But in that same spirit of legacy they should give us back normal dreadnoughts instead of those mutants. Night Lords shouldn't have mutated dreadnoughts. That's one of the reasons I run fw dreads.

I think it's also do to them trying to do renegades and legions at the same time.

Well the most important part according to GW and certain posters is the Trophy Rack. Does the Trophy Rack on the new CSM Terminator kit fit on the Cata and Tart patterns?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think the new csm terminators should have been heresy era patterns. Why would the older warriors have the newest marks of armour?

Legacy. Cataphract and Tartaros armor are more recent inventions narratively and model-ey, so in the heritage of the older models they use the "newer" armor.

Probably. But in that same spirit of legacy they should give us back normal dreadnoughts instead of those mutants. Night Lords shouldn't have mutated dreadnoughts. That's one of the reasons I run fw dreads.

I think it's also do to them trying to do renegades and legions at the same time.

Well the most important part according to GW and certain posters is the Trophy Rack. Does the Trophy Rack on the new CSM Terminator kit fit on the Cata and Tart patterns?

Well, personally I've always thought they look goofy on indomutus pattern terminators, but they look pretty good on tartaros

 Vaktathi wrote:

Spoiler:

My question is why GW insists on these characters never having helmets, and why the facial expressions they sculpt all project a sense of extreme gastric distress and painful constipation.

More to the point, we now have three plastic Terminator librarians, and they're all pretty objectively inferior sculpts (at a substantially higher price) next to older offerings. None of them have the detail or dynamism of guy, the last Metal termi librarian GW did (who was $20 when released in 2008, with inflation, that'd be ~$24 today, as opposed to the $31/35 GW charges for such a unit today).



The plastic ones all have much chunkier detail and bits, large flat unadorned surfaces, awkward modeling where undercuts can't be done in plastic (such as where Varus's tabard just kind of smears into his right leg, whereas this older metal dude has undercuts to make the tabard around his leg appear as a distinct object wrapping around the leg), less rivets, fewer adornments, stuff like hands on the plastic dudes are just cubes with fingers kinda scratched in where the older model has distinct individually sculpted fingers

.

^Imo one of their best SM Character models. I tend not to like a bunch of stuff on my models but that particular sculpt is 40K at it's finest.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Karol wrote:
GK termintors have no problems with proportions and look great. At least my metal ones do.

GK terminators look a lot better, because their head comes out of the top, like a human. Also, they don't have dog heads.

Ahem. . . Lion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All the Terminators are bad models to be frank. They have bad proportions, bad anatomy, and if you think Primaris are limited in poses good luck making every single Terminator look different.

At least you can give them different weapons

Except the Primaris dudes do have different weapons so you're once again wrong on your bizarre tirade of Primaris-Hating Manlet-Marine-Loving.

"Realmarines" slayer. Realmarines.

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Eh, I like the sculpt. Sure, I'd prefer other TDA sculpts (Terminator Ancient without needed Space Marine Heroes would be nice), but as what would have been a limited run and exclusive model, I'm not bothered.

I just can't unsee where his left arm comes from...it's a deal breaker.

My theory is that he is half-ork.

 Grimtuff wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

It basically is dude, not sure if you can really defend classic Terminators as models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

It basically is dude, not sure if you can really defend classic Terminators as models.

Then by that same logic most of GWs normal human models from the same period were massive hulking units or all the Space Marines were utter manlets.

But hey, you could choose to ignore all of the artistic renditions showing how the armor would work, as well as actual people cosplaying in accurately proportioned Terminator armor.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think the new csm terminators should have been heresy era patterns. Why would the older warriors have the newest marks of armour?

Legacy. Cataphract and Tartaros armor are more recent inventions narratively and model-ey, so in the heritage of the older models they use the "newer" armor.

Probably. But in that same spirit of legacy they should give us back normal dreadnoughts instead of those mutants. Night Lords shouldn't have mutated dreadnoughts. That's one of the reasons I run fw dreads.

I think it's also do to them trying to do renegades and legions at the same time.

Not to stick my foot in that hole, but if you want normal dreadnoughts, can't you just, you know, buy a normal dreadnought instead?

I have at least one friend who really likes the mutated dreadnought and at least one friend who prefers the unmutated boxnaught with a rack of spikes stuck to it for his. I personally agree with you and think the mutated stuff is well, mutated, and not really my thing, but given the number of conversions I see with green stuff to make them more mutated, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the dreadnought arrangement is the better of the worlds. Chaos players who want to have imperial stuff with the aquilas filed off and chaos stars daubed on can buy imperial dreadnoughts, file off the aquilas, and daub on some chaos stars, and chaos players who want to have horrible mutated body horror daemon machines can buy the horrible mutated body horror daemon machine dreadnought.


Back to the Terminator armors, I'm reasonably certain that it's not cataphract or tartaros armor because the models they're replacing aren't cataphract or tartaros armor, and there's a heritage there. GW seems to some times recognize FW contributions to the lore, but also be equally likely to pass it over on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jack Flask wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

It basically is dude, not sure if you can really defend classic Terminators as models.

Then by that same logic most of GWs normal human models from the same period were massive hulking units or all the Space Marines were utter manlets.

But hey, you could choose to ignore all of the artistic renditions showing how the armor would work, as well as actual people cosplaying in accurately proportioned Terminator armor.

Spoiler:

Those two drawings kind of expose the fact that it doesn't work, don't you think? Especially the second one. I don't stand that way, and I can't imagine many people standing that way craning my head forward and hunching my back for very long, much less fighting that way. It hurts just trying to imitate it and not quite making it. The first picture has his eyes at level with his shoulders and his chin below his collarbones. I don't even think I can get myself contorted that way.

Even guardsmen have their heads coming up, out of their body, instead of sticking forward.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I still think the new csm terminators should have been heresy era patterns. Why would the older warriors have the newest marks of armour?

Legacy. Cataphract and Tartaros armor are more recent inventions narratively and model-ey, so in the heritage of the older models they use the "newer" armor.

Probably. But in that same spirit of legacy they should give us back normal dreadnoughts instead of those mutants. Night Lords shouldn't have mutated dreadnoughts. That's one of the reasons I run fw dreads.

I think it's also do to them trying to do renegades and legions at the same time.

Not to stick my foot in that hole, but if you want normal dreadnoughts, can't you just, you know, buy a normal dreadnought instead?

I have at least one friend who really likes the mutated dreadnought and at least one friend who prefers the unmutated boxnaught with a rack of spikes stuck to it for his. I personally agree with you and think the mutated stuff is well, mutated, and not really my thing, but given the number of conversions I see with green stuff to make them more mutated, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the dreadnought arrangement is the better of the worlds. Chaos players who want to have imperial stuff with the aquilas filed off and chaos stars daubed on can buy imperial dreadnoughts, file off the aquilas, and daub on some chaos stars, and chaos players who want to have horrible mutated body horror daemon machines can buy the horrible mutated body horror daemon machine dreadnought.


Back to the Terminator armors, I'm reasonably certain that it's not cataphract or tartaros armor because the models they're replacing aren't cataphract or tartaros armor, and there's a heritage there. GW seems to some times recognize FW contributions to the lore, but also be equally likely to pass it over on.

That's fine with me. I don't have any problems with converting models to look a little more "chaosy" (kind of a requirement if you run a lot of hellforged stuff) and ever since the plastic cataphractii and tartaros kits were released those have been the only terminators I've bought. I just don't like how gw has stopped representing the less chaos corrupted legions as such and instead just represent all of them as Black Legion with different paint schemes. Just a pet peeve. *shrug*

 bullyboy wrote:
let the guy start a thread if he wants, jeez.

It's a terrible model, and also really not needed. With all the models that need a plastic kit, did we need another Terminator Librarian? There is already a generic one, a Blood Angel one (which can also be made as Deathwatch) and the one from Space Hulk, which is easy to acquire. Would have much preferred a Chaplain since the other one is resin and the Limited Edition guy is either hard to find, or way overpriced when you do.
At least give him a different force weapon. We have stave and axe, why not go sword?

Anyway, it's quite annoying when you realize that they did nothing for Deathwatch (why not a new plastic kit for them?) and other armies are starved for HQs, but marines absolutely needed another terminator librarian with levitating arms.

Yeah, with how many other variations that are available. This model was practically unneeded, save for maybe an upgrade kit to make them work for multiple chapters.
Hell, the primaris version has maybe three variations now?

I would've liked to see a new release for a GKs librarian, especially when Voldus was dropped.

On the bright side, Necron Pariahs might be making a return in all of this. So I may be de-moth balling an army later in the season.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Jack Flask wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

It basically is dude, not sure if you can really defend classic Terminators as models.

Then by that same logic most of GWs normal human models from the same period were massive hulking units or all the Space Marines were utter manlets.

But hey, you could choose to ignore all of the artistic renditions showing how the armor would work, as well as actual people cosplaying in accurately proportioned Terminator armor.

Spoiler:

Those two drawings kind of expose the fact that it doesn't work, don't you think? Especially the second one. I don't stand that way, and I can't imagine many people standing that way craning my head forward and hunching my back for very long, much less fighting that way. It hurts just trying to imitate it and not quite making it. The first picture has his eyes at level with his shoulders and his chin below his collarbones. I don't even think I can get myself contorted that way.

Even guardsmen have their heads coming up, out of their body, instead of sticking forward.

The first drawing looks fine to me, the marine in just leaning forward into the "camera" and therefore the head is lower on the view plane than would be if he was standing up straight.

As for "fighting posture", I can't imagine Terminators fight like a normal human in the first place. I think the whole point of the armor is sacrificing mobility for protection in boarding operations. Besides, a Terminator could kill someone by falling on them, and carries a CC weapon that can destroy armored bulkheads. They don't need fancy moves to pulverize a target.

 Togusa wrote:

What is wrong with it? I think it looks fine, fits in with the other terminators pretty well.

What's wrong with it is that with the open space on either side of his head (on most terminators this is filled in with helmet or cabling), and the raised arm, you can clearly see that the arm doesn't actually connect to his torso.

Other than that, it's a nice enough model. I'd almost like to buy one to see what extending his midrif and lowering his shoulders would do for the overall look... but I'm not curious enough about that to spend $60 on a model I don't actually need.

eh, I've always liked the sort of gorilla-hunched pose of terminators, even if it turns out it's not actually possible to squeeze a human into that pretzel shape.

I think that may have been designed as the sci-fi form of blemmyes - the mythical humans whose head reside in their shoulders or chest.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Jack Flask wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
Terminators in general are just bad. It's not that their shoulders are just as high as their heads, because that could be put down to excessively big pauldrons, it's that their shoulders are directly behind their heads. Anyone who fights in this for 5 minutes is going to have back problems the rest of their life.

Except that is clearly not where their shoulder is...

Try again with one without the shoulderpad on, and also account for the fact that the shoulder will still be lower than that due to the armour.

It basically is dude, not sure if you can really defend classic Terminators as models.

Then by that same logic most of GWs normal human models from the same period were massive hulking units or all the Space Marines were utter manlets.

But hey, you could choose to ignore all of the artistic renditions showing how the armor would work, as well as actual people cosplaying in accurately proportioned Terminator armor.

Spoiler:

Those two drawings kind of expose the fact that it doesn't work, don't you think? Especially the second one. I don't stand that way, and I can't imagine many people standing that way craning my head forward and hunching my back for very long, much less fighting that way. It hurts just trying to imitate it and not quite making it. The first picture has his eyes at level with his shoulders and his chin below his collarbones. I don't even think I can get myself contorted that way.

Even guardsmen have their heads coming up, out of their body, instead of sticking forward.

The first drawing looks fine to me, the marine in just leaning forward into the "camera" and therefore the head is lower on the view plane than would be if he was standing up straight.

As for "fighting posture", I can't imagine Terminators fight like a normal human in the first place. I think the whole point of the armor is sacrificing mobility for protection in boarding operations. Besides, a Terminator could kill someone by falling on them, and carries a CC weapon that can destroy armored bulkheads. They don't need fancy moves to pulverize a target.

I dunno about that. The way his shoulders and neck and head looks is pretty extremely weird, even if he his bending forward a bit.

Also, just trying to assume that pose from the 2nd drawing is painful, and I'm not sure if it's even possible. Like, that is not what a human looks like head-relative to chest and back.

Maybe something in space marine's enhancements/training makes them really good contortionists.

Head-forward honestly just looks like someone doing a log-carry to me. Or backpacking even, where you're leaning forward to distribute weight off your hips for a bit, or with a poorly packed bag. The marine is already hunching a bit so his upper spine is leaning more forward than it would be if he were standing up straight, allowing the head to lean more forward into the helm.

I mean, there are other issues with the drawings, but these seem close enough to register with me as 'reasonably close'. That coupled with the cosplay and I'm on board with the plausibility. It'd be an interesting problem to work on. I've animated a Terminator in the past although I'm not sure how realistcally proportioned the underlying skeleton was. It'd be fun to fit the design around an 'anatomically correct' marine (who might have slightly weird proportions anyways). I think canonically they're strangely broad in form, but I'm not sure how consistent that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Maybe something in space marine's enhancements/training makes them really good contortionists.

I mean, if after a century of service you were finally awarded the honor of wearing armor that bears a fragment of the Emperors armor from his fight with Horus, you really gonna turn it down out of some discomfort?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I dunno about that. The way his shoulders and neck and head looks is pretty extremely weird, even if he his bending forward a bit.

Also, just trying to assume that pose from the 2nd drawing is painful, and I'm not sure if it's even possible. Like, that is not what a human looks like head-relative to chest and back.

Seems like a normal hunched position one does in fights. It is painful in the begining, but after a few months of training it gets better, and professionals that trained for years just have natural hunch, often having a calcidied spine. Marines have ceramite in their bones, the older ones are probably as movable with their heads as people doing jiu jitsu or wrestling for decades. I have been doing wresling for only 2 years, and my neck is already less movable then it was before I went to school. Doesn't really hurt either. Now muscle shifting that is a pain one gets a lot, specialy when you are growing or recovering from a tear injury.

Eh, I think he's great. As someone else said: don't like it, don't buy it.