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 Arbitrator wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The only problem is, you need to find players willing to play the single, mookiest, faction in all of warhammer 40,000. The guys who the heroes casually kill on the way to the distraction masking the true threat.

Every non-Imperial faction are Mooks for the Space Marines. Guard are Mooks for non-Imperial factions to kill, especially in post-8th lore where that is literally their one and only contribution to the narrative thus far.

Genestealers are Mookier than Lost & Damned because the assumption is that after you win your game on the tabletop, the beings you've been worshipping come down and eat you. At least a successful Lost & Damned force can go onto greater conquests and potentially even reach Daemon Prince status.

You don't get much more Mook than GSC being literal Useful Idiots who become a source of nutrients for their uncaring gods (who aren't even gods it), having the wool lifted from their eyes before they die to boot.

TBF, the fact that all GSC are unwitting is no longer canonical. Many Genestealer Cults are fully aware the nids come and eat the worlds they infest, they just do it anyway because they want the destruction of the imperium and they can just...leave. All the cults represented by cult traits are now multi-world spanning cults, most of which are fully aware of the nids.

Almost everything I've read in the GSC 'dex and recent fluff paints them as completely unaware of what exactly the Star Children are and even their more Tyranid-esq forms (Acolytes, Metamorphs, etc) they perceive with a kind of filter over them as beautiful, angelic beings - which makes it notable when that screen is removed and they see the Tyranids for what they actually are (hideous monsters). The Scourged try to lift the wool from their eyes in Vigilus Aflame, and they just submerge themselves even more into fanatical denial that they're nothing more than food.

There's some contradictions to this in places - one of those paragraph stories mentions a Cultist watching the digestion pools and getting a sinking feeling in his gut he'll be going into one, but shrugs it off as being necessary. By enlarge though it seems they're still ignorant, almost tragic villains.

According to the background there is both. There are cults that are completly oblivious and others that know exactly what will happen. In the codex they know that their "mutations" aren't beautiful from a normal imperial standpoint, but as they make them stronger etc they still now consider that as beauty. There are cults that will willingly walk into an acid pool to be devoured and others that try to avoid that by any means nessacery. There is even one cult in the codex that doesn't get eaten when the tyranids arrive and now just tags along with a hive fleet.

In short no matter what you want a cult to think/know about the tyranids, it is possible from the way their fluff is written.

Tyel wrote:
Deathwatch: Overkill sold more copies than GW hoped for (indeed, I think you can almost map its release as the inflection point to GW's subsequent increase of revenues and share price until the latest market crash - although the success of 8th is obviously the big one.)

That would have suggested GSC would be popular - so full roll out. They may have decided on a full rollout anyway - but they were clearly going to do one now. DW got the same - although on a more limited scale in terms of releases and development.

I agree there is direction from somewhere - but I suspect its a bit of a mix. Saying "one day a designer just decided "Genestealer Cults" seems like nonsense. But I also doubt the Rountree (never mind Kirby) was sitting in the office and then went "you know what? Genestealer Cults."

I mean it was obviously a joke - but the sketch of how they ended up making a Zoat is probably based on a real sort of meeting.

Management: "We need something new to sell in [this period]. What ideas have we got?"
Creative person, maybe a designer maybe not: "How about Genestealer Cult? And everyone loves Marines, so what about Deathwatch? It would cash in on nostalgia."
Management: "Yeah, okay not sure on a cold release though. We think Harlequins suffered because of that."
Creative type: "Okay, what about a board game? I'm thinking (something that became Deathwatch Overkill)."
Designer "I can already think of three great sculpts. Lets get some mock ups and report back".
Manager: Okay, draw something up and lets meet up later.

Flash forward.
"Models look great, game seems okay, lets go with it."

There was a long time rumour that the development team had wanted to do Genestealer Cults for ages, and Alan Merritt had been down on the idea. When he essentially departed that post the blocker was gone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because Renegades and Heretics was a follow-on/placeholder while FW updated the lists out of Siege of Vraks and Tyrant's Legion from Badab War.

Since they're not really doing FW campaign books anymore, you're not seeing much movement on that front.

Also another reason is probably due to the fact that they likely have been exploring ways to make the army different and unique. GSC, for example, play differently to Guard despite just basically being a Guard reskin.

It's not as if you could leave the Formations in the past and use ia13 for a baseline for plenty diffrent feel.....

I don't think everyone knows just how much variety IA 13 had. Want to lead a horde of mutants? Got it. Renegade psyckers complete with access to greater daemons? Covered. Heretek magus (dark mechanicus anyone?)? Got that too. Or just good old fashioned traitor guard. Those rules should definitely be considered if gw wants to bring back traitor guard.

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The way I see it, they are two sides of the same coin. One is guard aligned with Xenos and one is guard aligned with Chaos. They share most of the same guard units while retaining some of their own. Yet one has its own Codex and plastic models while one has its crappy rules thrown haphazardly into an Imperial Armour book and isn’t even made anymore?. Why is this?

I think part of it could be explained by unexplored design space. The Genstealer Cults 7th-edition reboot put more emphasis on the civilian aspects and minimized the guard aspects (5 units in the 7th edition codex/8th edition index were guard derived, 1 unit was Tyranid derived, the remaining 10 were unique) in comparison to the Renegades. While Renegades could explore similar themes, Chaos at the time had a fair amount of ally options available while the Tyranids did not have any. By making an new army that could be allied with Tyranids, they were able to access a relatively untapped market of players as well.

I suppose also for what it is worth, I think the designers have also had some difficulty deciding how they want Renegades to "feel" relative to the guard in much the same way Chaos Space Marines have been evolving relative to their loyalist counterparts. The 5th edition army list was quite novel with its stationary turrets/bunkers and ability to mix guard and chaos space marines with even cheaper cannon fodder. The lists since then have devolved to be more like the loyalist guard but with a greater fixation on cheap/disposable units.

Cough, cough...PLASTIC R&H in Blackstone Fortress.

Although most seem to conveniently omit / forget their existence.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough, cough...PLASTIC R&H in Blackstone Fortress.

Although most seem to conveniently omit / forget their existence.

I'm pretty sure what people mean is a range of models which which form a proper faction, aren't sharing their sprues with a bunch of randos, and have more functionality than filling the minimum requirements of a battalion for the lowest points possible.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough, cough...PLASTIC R&H in Blackstone Fortress.

Although most seem to conveniently omit / forget their existence.

Thank you but yes we are aware, that doesn't mean that it will come now does it.

Also the rules for them are next level stupid.
And no i don't want integrated CSM units thank you very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Cough, cough...PLASTIC R&H in Blackstone Fortress.

Although most seem to conveniently omit / forget their existence.

I'm pretty sure what people mean is a range of models which which form a proper faction, aren't sharing their sprues with a bunch of randos, and have more functionality than filling the minimum requirements of a battalion for the lowest points possible.

Fun fact, the R&H core atm is still cheaper and actually better....

Honestly, seems quite the inverse.

The Chaos super-faction currently has 5 Codexes, an entire Vigilus all for themselves, and will have PA entries for all of them (CSM twice it seems).

If anything, GW should throw some love the way of the Tyranid/GSC/Hive Mind faction with a Knights-equivalent Codex (Giant Nid gribblies), a Thousand Sons-equivalent Codex (perhaps Aeldari GSC and/or more psychic beasts), a Death Guard-equivalent Codex, etc.. before they bother with Chaos Guard.

Who asked about <CHAOS>? No-one. So why have you come charging in with a statement about <CHAOS> in a thread about <RENEGADES AND HERETICS>?

Different flavours of Astartes have been treated as separate Factions since long before 'Factions' were a thing. Since at least 1996, in fact. You really should be used to it by now.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Who asked about <CHAOS>? No-one. So why have you come charging in with a statement about <CHAOS> in a thread about <RENEGADES AND HERETICS>?

Different flavours of Astartes have been treated as separate Factions since long before 'Factions' were a thing. Since at least 1996, in fact. You really should be used to it by now.

The OP does define Renegades as aligned with Chaos, so...

 Dysartes wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Who asked about <CHAOS>? No-one. So why have you come charging in with a statement about <CHAOS> in a thread about <RENEGADES AND HERETICS>?

Different flavours of Astartes have been treated as separate Factions since long before 'Factions' were a thing. Since at least 1996, in fact. You really should be used to it by now.

The OP does define Renegades as aligned with Chaos, so...

And? He clearly answers sunny.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Who asked about <CHAOS>? No-one. So why have you come charging in with a statement about <CHAOS> in a thread about <RENEGADES AND HERETICS>?

Different flavours of Astartes have been treated as separate Factions since long before 'Factions' were a thing. Since at least 1996, in fact. You really should be used to it by now.

The OP does define Renegades as aligned with Chaos, so...

"...aligned with Chaos" is not <CHAOS>.

It's a blatantly off-topic rant from somebody who has talked them self into feeling badly-done-by and who demands satisfaction by way of an equal-attention cake.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
The way I see it, they are two sides of the same coin. One is guard aligned with Xenos and one is guard aligned with Chaos. They share most of the same guard units while retaining some of their own. Yet one has its own Codex and plastic models while one has its crappy rules thrown haphazardly into an Imperial Armour book and isn’t even made anymore?. Why is this?

I think part of it could be explained by unexplored design space. The Genstealer Cults 7th-edition reboot put more emphasis on the civilian aspects and minimized the guard aspects (5 units in the 7th edition codex/8th edition index were guard derived, 1 unit was Tyranid derived, the remaining 10 were unique) in comparison to the Renegades. While Renegades could explore similar themes, Chaos at the time had a fair amount of ally options available while the Tyranids did not have any. By making an new army that could be allied with Tyranids, they were able to access a relatively untapped market of players as well.

I suppose also for what it is worth, I think the designers have also had some difficulty deciding how they want Renegades to "feel" relative to the guard in much the same way Chaos Space Marines have been evolving relative to their loyalist counterparts. The 5th edition army list was quite novel with its stationary turrets/bunkers and ability to mix guard and chaos space marines with even cheaper cannon fodder. The lists since then have devolved to be more like the loyalist guard but with a greater fixation on cheap/disposable units.

My take is that Renegades & Heretics/Lost & Damned would focus more on things like the Gellarpox and other mutants. GSC kind of do that already but L&D would presumably focus on the body horror a lot more with a playstyle that's much more overly in-your-face than the subversive trickery of the Cults. I don't see Codex: Traitor Guard being a thing by itself, but they'd naturally have Traitor Guard units in there. They'd function more like a standing army that you see in Gaunt's Ghosts (not necessarily a Not!BloodPact) rather than the civilian insurrection of GSC.

If we can have fifty thousand varieties of power armoured, bolter-wielding armies I don't think some overlap with human mortals is too much of an issue really. GSC and Guard play extremely differently to one another beyond sharing a couple of units, so any playstyle overlap would be with one army, not two.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Who asked about <CHAOS>? No-one. So why have you come charging in with a statement about <CHAOS> in a thread about <RENEGADES AND HERETICS>?

Different flavours of Astartes have been treated as separate Factions since long before 'Factions' were a thing. Since at least 1996, in fact. You really should be used to it by now.

The OP does define Renegades as aligned with Chaos, so...

"...aligned with Chaos" is not <CHAOS>.

It's a blatantly off-topic rant from somebody who has talked them self into feeling badly-done-by and who demands satisfaction by way of an equal-attention cake.

Dude is talking about Chaos and Tyranids in a thread discussing R&H and GSC - hardly OT.

Also, the handle you flew off is over there...

I mean, if I was going to do a R&H, I would put a throwaway line in about traitor guard or something the same way GSC can take a Guard detachment, and then I would:

1) Go whole-hog on the civilian aspect. Not like GSC did, where they're civilians who improvise their stuff into weapons, but I mean real civilians. Their basic troops would have no guns - they could buy grenades (as the 1 throw per turn restriction means they wouldn't throw many), and a basic CCW. Their unit sizes would be determined before game start - you could buy them any size you want, but then at the game start either add or subtract d6 based on points costs. 40k civilian rebellions don't care about your puny military logic. Unit sizes should be unreliable.

2) The HQs would be charismatic cult demagogues and rogue psykers and the like. Squishy and easily killed, but with supernatural charisma that allows them to apply a glut of special rules. You could specialize these guys (e.g. a cult demagogue can only buff Civilian Mob units, a mutant gang leader can only buff Mutant units, etc).

3) Elites would be where mutants and cult disciple units live, representing the real cult members and mutants from below, etc. Cult disciple units are basically just the civilian units, but have more control over their unit size (so you can actually plan with them) and have access to smuggled firearms (basically the 40k cultist entry - ish).

4) Fast Attack would be, of course, the Chaos Spawn. Any transport the army would have access to would fit here as well (e.g. civilian cars). Dedicated transports have no meaning in a disorganized rabble - dedicated to who? By what? So they take up slots. This would be a 'dump' slot.

5) Heavy support would consist of things like up-armored bulldozers, which basically can be moving blocks of LOS Blocking terrain the size of Baneblades but cheap and little else, or covens of rogue witches chained together to channel psychic blasts through some head wytch, etc.

Everything would be cheap and plentiful and not lethal or survivable, but the crucial things that I think would make the army are the following rules:
1) As mentioned, an IG detachment can come similar to GSC. Make some rule for an all-traitor-guard army by essentially not requiring a detachment of units from this book in order to use the rules.

2) Troops units (the big mobs of unarmed cultists) would grow in size over the game (perhaps adding d6 models a turn) to represent civilians crawling from hiding to join their fellows, convinced by the Demagogue's rhetoric (maybe make it only if the demagogue is within 6" or something).

3) Make daemon-summoning actually useful; have the chaos uprising assemble points of some kind depending on what god they're aligned to (like AOS) and then Daemons can be summoned with those points, with the earned points making up for not having to pay reinforcement points.

The way I envision the army playing is thusly:
- The enemy feels like they are fighting an entire world (units are unarmed, but grow in size and are terribly irregular). Units only stay down if wiped utterly out.
- Despite this, most professional miltiaries (IG, Eldar, SM, etc). can wipe them out in droves and make headway early game.
- Late-game, however, things swing back to the R&H, as they accumulate points to summon daemons; as with most uprisings, the real goal of the cult is to summon daemons/CSM to help them break away from the Imperium. As the numbers of human cultists finally dwindle to only the most fanatical core, the number of daemons on the table grows.

Counterplay would be:
1) Focus firing critical units. If a dozer-tank is blocking LOS to a critical character, blow it up and then snipe the Demagogue. Alternatively, if a growing horde is closing in on the Relic (for example), then focus fire on it. Simply putting out a smattering of fire against all the targets in this army should be a recipe for disaster even more so than usual.

2) Focus on keeping critical units alive - send some into the fray to slow down or stop the enemy. A leman russ trapped and overrun by unarmed cultists is still useless even if it is functionally unhurt.

3) Counterplay the Daemon summoning. Whatever task grants the enemy points, try to counter it. For example, Khorne's summoning mechanic might be: "Hungry for Glory: Characters charging enemy units grant you +1 Daemon Point" or whatever. Kill or avoid those characters! Slaanesh, OTOH, might be "Pleasure in Every Hall: Controlling more table quarters than your opponent at the end of every player turn gives you +3 Daemon Points" or whatever.

Of course, I am not here to write the whole dex and balance it, but there's my flavor ideas.

I mean i like points: 2,3 and 4.

But the paramilitary nature of IA13 is a better fit for then 1 and 5

as for the lower part, there was no need even for IA13 to represent traitor guardsmen and rabble via seperate entries.
It did so by modifying your Militia Squad (which could range from basically unarmed civilians to Dark mech Skitari to traitor guardsmen) via Buyable upgrades and HQ. Bringing that back would cut down on potential cross dex interaction issues hard.

The growing squads whilest on paper a great idea would not really work well with 8th's board policiy and the swiftness of infantry and incrediebly infuriating to play with and against and i say that as someone that has fielded 400 militia for giggles in 7th which had a lot more anti horde tools.

As for the Summoning usefull, your sugested system sounds better but also iffy in an army that grows via just existing.

IA 13 was great, but I think it's dead; I was trying to take it a new direction.

If "IA 13 but 8th" comes back, then sure, that's cool.

And I'm talking about units with 0 armor saves - but yes, that's rather the point, I think. Chaos uprisings are infuriating to put down. If you mean infuriating to play against because of how crap GW's rules handle a game of this scale, then yeah, that I agree. I was spitballing ideas.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IA 13 was great, but I think it's dead; I was trying to take it a new direction.

If "IA 13 but 8th" comes back, then sure, that's cool.

And I'm talking about units with 0 armor saves - but yes, that's rather the point, I think. Chaos uprisings are infuriating to put down. If you mean infuriating to play against because of how crap GW's rules handle a game of this scale, then yeah, that I agree. I was spitballing ideas.

I honestly like your suggestion for a specific substyle of the faction, just not the faction overall for what it should be.
Which is why i prefer a paramilitary approach for the core because that one is more maleable into the direction desiered.

overall tho if one were to assume BSF wasn't just a fluke then we'd get a broad faction with atleast 4 subsets (3 core and one CSM)
Namely,
Dark mechanicum, represented by the Negavolt cultists.
Mutants and cults, Represented by the cultists and the beastmen to a degree the psykers.
Traitor guard, represented by the traitor guardsmen (also am i the only one that thinks their lasgun pattern looks extremely similar to DKoK?) and the commisar.

(and forth would be CSM in the elite slot as a quasi enforcer?)

I do hope that there is a cheap transport for infantry akin to a truck but regular.


Edit: If GW also would've bothered they could've easily made Servants of the abyss ruleswise into an actual foundation, it's just they didn't bother too.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IA 13 was great, but I think it's dead; I was trying to take it a new direction.

If "IA 13 but 8th" comes back, then sure, that's cool.

And I'm talking about units with 0 armor saves - but yes, that's rather the point, I think. Chaos uprisings are infuriating to put down. If you mean infuriating to play against because of how crap GW's rules handle a game of this scale, then yeah, that I agree. I was spitballing ideas.

I honestly like your suggestion for a specific substyle of the faction, just not the faction overall for what it should be.
Which is why i prefer a paramilitary approach for the core because that one is more maleable into the direction desiered.

overall tho if one were to assume BSF wasn't just a fluke then we'd get a broad faction with atleast 4 subsets (3 core and one CSM)
Namely,
Dark mechanicum, represented by the Negavolt cultists.
Mutants and cults, Represented by the cultists and the beastmen to a degree the psykers.
Traitor guard, represented by the traitor guardsmen (also am i the only one that thinks their lasgun pattern looks extremely similar to DKoK?) and the commisar.

I do hope that there is a cheap transport for infantry akin to a truck but regular.

I was trying to include miltiary/paramilitary/traitor guard by allowing IG detachments to be traitors in the book. the rules surrounding that would probably be to kill regiment rules and stratagems and replace them with stratagems and daemon summoning from nu!R&H.

The only one I didn't plan for was Dark Mechanicum, though honestly I've been running a Dark Mechanicum list out of the CSM dex since forever. The only thing you'd need are stratagems and traits, imo. New units (like Negavolt Cultists or the Chaos Hellwright but from GW) would be welcome but aren't required (my main warlord is a Hellwright on Dark Abeyant for my current dark mech).

CSM would not be in the book. If you want CSM in your chaos army, run a CSM detachment in your chaos army. The R&H book can have interaction rules (e.g. one of the Cult Traits could be something like "Service to a Higher Power: If an enemy unit fires at a friendly unit without Fly while a Renegades and Heretics Rabble unit is closer to the firing unit, then the enemy suffers -1 to-hit with their shooting attack; any shots that miss as a result of this rule and any other negative modifiers are resolved against the Rabble instead."
(and forth would be CSM in the elite slot as a quasi enforcer?)

I just go on with what GW gave us.
They all seem to share a dex, even the inline Marines.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I just go on with what GW gave us.
They all seem to share a dex, even the inline Marines.

I know people loved that style (IA13) but it imho was only loved because it offered a bit of everything, but it didn't do anything terribly well. Like yeah, you could run Dark Mechanicus... which made your dude T4 and gave your troops carapace armor. Woo.

If I had my 'druthers, Chaos would have
- CSM & friendos (DG, TS)
- Daemons
- R&H (including traitor guard)
- Dark Mechanicus

and Imperium would have:
- SM & friendos (SW, BA)
- Sororitas
- Imperial Guard
- Mechanicus
- Agents

We've had plastic R&H models since 2012 with "Dark Vengeance," and it's had, what, two re-releases? Blackstone Fortress added some different unit types, but DV just goes to show that plastic models does not equal GW's full attention.

What makes it a real shame is that R&H are the primary impetus for the existence of most Imperial factions. In the fluff there are simply not enough CSM to actually threaten the Imperium, and daemons can't really do anything without someone opening the door for them. It's the corruptible nature of the people of the Imperium that makes Chaos a constant threat. Even the xenophobia of the Imperial creed is primarily intended to unify humans so that they are less susceptible to Chaos, and it's because of the constant threat from Chaos that the Imperium can't mobilize it's forces to wipe out it's other enemies.

R&H are the lynchpin of the Warhammer 40K universe, and all it would take is a rulebook and a handful of bloody upgrade sprues to give them a presence in the game.

It's a massive stretch to call the Cultists R&H models.

Because they’re cooler and more unique? Idk it’s a totally subjective question.

Gordoape wrote:
Because they’re cooler and more unique? Idk it’s a totally subjective question.

Erm alone from the ammount of weaponry and upper torsos there were more sculpts then the cultists.

Mind you they would Make a good basis for r&h, but the Same can be said about plastifyied vraksians or bsf cultists/traitor guard.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gordoape wrote:
Because they’re cooler and more unique? Idk it’s a totally subjective question.

Erm alone from the ammount of weaponry and upper torsos there were more sculpts then the cultists.

Mind you they would Make a good basis for r&h, but the Same can be said about plastifyied vraksians or bsf cultists/traitor guard.

I'm talking about the question topping this thread. It doesn't make sense. Why did GW decide to support one new faction over another? IDK, personally I think GSC are cooler. Maybe they thought GSC would sell better. The existence of GSC has nothing to do with Renegades.

Gordoape wrote:
Because they’re cooler and more unique? Idk it’s a totally subjective question.

Because they were obviously designed and intended for Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Hell, even the BSF Traitor Guard come under <Servants of the Abyss> and not <Renegades and Heretics>.

I guess the obvious answer to the OP's question is that they just haven't gotten around to doing renegades yet. Gw can only do so many things at a time. The fw Indexes were just that, Indexes, we're supposed to be getting new fw books so hopefully they may do something there. Preferably based on what we had in IA 13.

I think a more realistic answer is that they're in the same place as Corsairs - gone.

pm713 wrote:
I think a more realistic answer is that they're in the same place as Corsairs - gone.

Probably. But we can still hope. Until the new fw books are released and all those hopes are crushed of course.