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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

It's fairly well proven that any form of training or introduction works best when it ends on a positive association/event. That's why in animal training even if things go wrong, a good trainer will aim to end a segment with a positive interaction and outcome for the animal.

It makes them more likely to be responsive the next time; rather than leaving a negative association.





In wargaming this can mistakenly get taken to be "Let the newbie win". It's a very easy way to "end" the game on a positive interaction for them. By and large it also does work, most people LIKE to win and very early on won't grasp at the win being more given to them than being hard earned through skills that they do not yet have.

However its not the only approach and not the only way to "end" things on a positive connection. It is simply the easier approach for the vast majority, remembering that many people are not teachers so they won't always have multiple teaching tools to hand to use when introducing and teaching someone new.



In the end its not the only approach. I think his point about "finding gamers of quality" is more correctly translated as "attempting to find groups where newbie bashing isn't a thing". Which is a valid concern for some, but its also generally quite rare and even when it does happen its often more out of ignorance (they don't realise that they keep beating the newbies); or a single or small fragment of the population, not the entire group.




Again positive interactions do NOT mean you have to win; its just a much easier and simpler connection that works most times. There are many other ways to make an experience positive and reinforcing so that new people want to come back and want to continue. Furthermore teaching a new thing goes through many phases. Sometimes a person just isn't yet ready to be receptive to critical analysis of their game. Especially at the start where such detailed assessment can often fly over their heads because they are still getting to grips with the mechanics of play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 20:53:32


   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's entirely possible he is trolling this site for lulz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
It's fairly well proven that any form of training or introduction works best when it ends on a positive association/event. That's why in animal training even if things go wrong, a good trainer will aim to end a segment with a positive interaction and outcome for the animal.

It makes them more likely to be responsive the next time; rather than leaving a negative association.





In wargaming this can mistakenly get taken to be "Let the newbie win". It's a very easy way to "end" the game on a positive interaction for them. By and large it also does work, most people LIKE to win and very early on won't grasp at the win being more given to them than being hard earned through skills that they do not yet have.

However its not the only approach and not the only way to "end" things on a positive connection. It is simply the easier approach for the vast majority, remembering that many people are not teachers so they won't always have multiple teaching tools to hand to use when introducing and teaching someone new.



In the end its not the only approach. I think his point about "finding gamers of quality" is more correctly translated as "attempting to find groups where newbie bashing isn't a thing". Which is a valid concern for some, but its also generally quite rare and even when it does happen its often more out of ignorance (they don't realise that they keep beating the newbies); or a single or small fragment of the population, not the entire group.


Unfortunately, a lot of newbies purchase models with terrible rules because they don't know any better. They then get bashed because GW can't balance the rules for models, not because more experienced gamers are mean.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/06 20:53:57


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.

The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.

I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...

If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.

The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.

Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2020/05/06 21:37:40


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.

To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
The Newman wrote:
3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.

There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:

1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.

2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.

The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.

The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.


I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.

One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.

Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.

I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint

Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.

I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
No that's pretty stupid. You don't need to learn from failure all the time.

It's a friendly tutorial game to teach you the basics. Winning does not matter. Does your low self esteem prevent you from allowing your opponent a victory?


Wel that only works if you tell the other person you are leting them win. And by that time the learning curve becomes really strange from my point of view, because what am I learning as a new player, if you are letting me win ?

now, not letting a new player start with a complicated army, or playing against them with a list that, if not countered correctly, removes the ability to do anything significant by the opponent turn 2, are good things to do when starting. But letting someone win, is stupid. I have seen people drop out of school,because of them winning . For first 3 months they were winning based on genetics, and when others trained they were just winning by being bigger. And then when the quarterly exams came they got choked out, they didn't knew how to counter moves with anything besides raw power and one person even got seriously injured, because while we train in age groups, the fight cathegories were age and weight. And when they were faced with people who were for 1+plus at the school and had similar weight they got destroyed, as in litteraly the guy had his left collar bone broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.

To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.


Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.

The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.


On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/07 11:35:16


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

In a first game, you are literally showing them how the game works. How the turn sequence goes, how to shoot, how to attack.

Talking about tri-pointing them etc at that stage is ridiculous, it would be like getting into heel-and-toe gear shifting on a first driving lesson.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
IMO, the most important thing when teaching a new player is to let them make their own decisions. Teach them the basics and then at pretty much every point from there on you should be asking them "what do you want to do here?" That engages them with the game much more than any other method I've seen and gets a dialogue going which allows you to gauge how well they've picked up the basic concepts. Letting them win is fine, but you need to be careful not to patronise them - many people are fine with losing their first games.

To the OP, I'd say get down to the local game store as soon as you can (which may be a while in the current situation!) and in the meantime you can't go far wrong with a few squads of Intercessors as the basis of a new Space Marine army, Regardless of which direction you want to go with your army that's always going to be a solid start.


Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM


We're talking about game number 1 here, dude. Like, "I have no idea how this game works but it looks cool" sort of thing. Army selection doesn't even enter into it at this point, which is why I'm saying the most important thing is to engage them with the game and get them thinking about it rather than just bombarding them with explanations. That's the whole point of asking "What do you want to do here?" at every opportunity during the training game. I have no idea how you extrapolate that out into army choice and a long spiral of defeat leading to depression leading to alcoholism and the destruction of everything that was once good in their life..

And if they want to play Harlequins and are really enthusiastic about it I'd say go for it. There's no point taking someone who's really enthusiastic about an army and really wants to build and paint a bunch of Space Clowns and telling them "ah no, you'd be better off with Raven Guard". I'd probably ask them what they wanted to get out of the hobby - are they looking mainly at competitive tournament gaming, more on the artistic side of things or do they want a mix of both? I'm not going to tell someone that Harlequins are going to be an easy army to play, for example, but I sure as hell ain't going to tell them not to bother if they have their heart set on a Harlequins army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 11:36:20


 
   
Made in eu
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

Had the same sort of discussion with my 11 year old son, who joined secondary school in September and discovered their Warhammer club.

We were talking about what sort of army he was interested in, and without knowing the factions available he said 'it'd be really cool if there was a race of, like, robot skeletons'. Necrons were a no-brainer.

There's no point getting into 'Necrons aren't very competitive right now'. He only plays for an hour after school in a pretty un-competitive 'bring what you've got' sort of environment.

I had my first game against him at home earlier this week. He's only got about 300 points of Necrons so I put together a similar value World Eaters force. I was aiming for thematic rather than competitive, and took some Raptors as that meant he could see what his Deathmarks could do.

And yes, I let him win. It came down to a very fun, fluffy final combat where my Berserkers kept chopping down his Warriors, but they kept getting back up again... Turns out Reanimation Protocols are pretty good in a game this small...

We also talked through what did he learn, what could he do better next time... And he's looking forward to playing again. Which is kind of the point.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





The Newman wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
The Newman wrote:
3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.

There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:

1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.

2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.

The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.

The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.


I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.

One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.

Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.

I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint

Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.

I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.


Probably not super great, if I'm being honest. I've used 6$ cans of army painter primer for ages, and a while back I tried out 3.50$ rustoleum because I heard over and over "It's exactly the same, it's just as good, you're just throwing money away!" and surprise surprise, the models looked like I had primed them twice, I got pools in the recesses, and every single model came out god damn sticky.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.

The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.

I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...

If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.

The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.

Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k


I mean, I don't know if winning and losing is really a "thing" the first time I tend to play a game. Usually, I'll run something like a unit of space marines against 110 points of shoota boyz or something, here's how you move, here's unit coherency, here's how cover works, now we're going to do some melee...and then we wrap up after I go through the basic mechanics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 11:28:43


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Crispy78 wrote:
In a first game, you are literally showing them how the game works. How the turn sequence goes, how to shoot, how to attack.

Talking about tri-pointing them etc at that stage is ridiculous, it would be like getting into heel-and-toe gear shifting on a first driving lesson.


No, it's not. They need to not be surprised by it in the future. The game is not that deep or complex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ishagu wrote:
Guys, I'm literally talking about the first ever game someone plays.

The one where they are literally learning how to move models and such, where they need to be talked through and instructed on what to do because they literally cannot play the game yet.

I'm not saying you let them win forever. Am I living in some alternative universe where people don't have common sense? Or do people lack social experience? Who knows...

If you are telling someone how to play the game because they don't yet understand the most basic rules and tactics, and then you beat them in that same game you look like an arse lol. You instructed them to lose.

The tutorial game is not a game to decide a winner. It's a tutorial to teach basic rules. Tactics and proper games come later.

Maybe this is why some of you are lacking the most basic understanding of what the social contract and the gentleman's agreements should entail around this hobby. A few people on the forum understand what I'm trying to say - it would seem that others would instead prefer to stomp the newbie who's never played a game before to show him what the game is about? Clearly if that's your mentality you've missed the point of 40k


And you prefer to misrepresent the game to them. I probably restart the game several times to maximize the learning curve.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/07 15:12:25


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Karol wrote:

On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
Um, having done wrestling for several years myself, and multiple other martial arts myself (was actually supposed to be in Prague last week for a fencing tournament), I have never seen anything of this sort occur. Hell, normally you don't even actually get to spar/bout/etc until you've gotten basics like footwork, measure, some technique, etc down first.

Normally I find Ishagu's statements to be pretty intentionally calculated to troll, but in this instance I don't think he's giving terrible advice. While I don't agree that the new player *must* win their first game (or that the first game has have a determined winner at all), I don't think throwing people into the deep end is a universally functional introduction.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's fine as long as you aren't playing "gotcha". Instead, explain it like "This is what I would do in a normal game, so this is what you should look out for." Whether you do it or not means very little. You can even rewind, so they can adapt to the tactic they are now aware of.

This game doesn't have the curve of wrestling or martial arts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 16:48:09


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Spoiler:
the_scotsman wrote:
The Newman wrote:
3) Some slightly off-the-beaten-path advice on brushes and paint: have you ever tried golf? People who know what they're doing will carry 13+ clubs because they need tools for specific jobs, but for the beginner the difference between a 3 iron and a 4 iron is irrelevant because their swing isn't consistent enough yet. And likewise a beginner isn't going to notice the difference between a $30 driver and a $200 driver. Painting is like that.

There are two things about brushes that I cannot stress enough:

1) Go look up how to clean a miniature paint brush on youtube. You would not believe how much of a difference proper brush care makes to the life expectancy of a brush. I've painted 9000 points of Space Marines and I'm only on my second Princeton Select #2 round. That's a synthetic Taklon brush and it is easily the one I use the most. Costs about $5.

2) Use the biggest brush you can control properly for the job. The bigger the brush, the more resilient it is to poor handling, and trust me when I say that I know a thing or two about poor brush handling. I use a big #8 flat for putting the base color on a Marine (#12 flat for a tank) and that saves a ton of wear and tear on my #2 round. I don't touch my little 18/0 until I'm painting eyeballs.

The second thing about painting I want to say is do not start off with miniatures that you're going to eventually put on a table. Go find some cheap dollar-store plastic knights (or army men in a pinch, but knights will be more representative of Space Marines), use them to practice technique and to iron out your color scheme. I guarantee that you'll start having second thoughts about a scheme you like on one model after you've had to repeat it 20 or 30 times.

The third thing has a massive asterisk on it. Reddit will tell you that Vallejo or Reaper paint is about the same quality as Citadel for half the cost, but craft paint like Apple Barrel will coat poorly and wear off models quickly. I've used Americana for years and never noticed it to coat any worse or wear any faster than Citadel, and Americana is better than Apple Barrel, but I've been using the stuff for a long time and it's entirely possible that I've just gotten used to working around it's limitations. The big asterisk is that even if you find you don't get noticably better results out of a higher quality paint, switching from a cheap paint to Vallejo is a different kettle of fish from switching to a higher quality of brush. I'm using Crayon Orange and Sea Breeze, but even a color like Primary Yellow that sounds like something every manufacturer should have in their range isn't guaranteed to exist in the Citadel or Reaper or Vallejo line, and if it does it might turn out to not be the same color. Switching paints mid-project is sure to create a visible difference in your results.


I agree....to a point with some of this stuff. I have noticed though that for some of the folks who absolutely hate painting or think they're just irredeemably bad at it, it can be because they are using a 1$ brush instead of a 5$ brush and 1$ paint instead of 3$ paint to paint a 60$ plastic model.

One of those little 3$ vallejo paint bottles? That's about 2,000 points of models worth of paint right there, if it's the primary color you're painting those models. That 7$ size 1 sable brush will probably last you about as long as well if you take care of it.

Definitely agreed on brush washing, and that for the most part, citadel stuff is not anywhere near the top quality for the price. I think there's a somewhat logarithmic curve to the amount of benefit you get benefit you'll see out of getting good quality hobby supplies by spending extra money, and that first 20 extra bucks you spend on paints from a miniature hobby store and brushes from an art store instead of from a michaels is a REALLY important 20 bucks in my book.

I just saw a post from someone in my group who was very frustrated by his paint results, and he posted up a real "ebay pro painted" model like "I don't know why I'm so bad at this!?!" from the picture you could see he was using one of those plastic-bristled brushes that come out of kids water color sets, and also not priming his minis, and also he had a can of house paint

Not like I suggested using $1 brushes or ...ok, so I did suggest $1 paint might pass muster with enough practice. And a $1 bottle of Americana did the primary coat on 9000 points of Marines with a quarter of the bottle to spare, so when you say the $3 bottle of Vallejo will cover 2000 points I believe it.

I shudder to think what your opinion would be of my choice of primer.


Probably not super great, if I'm being honest. I've used 6$ cans of army painter primer for ages, and a while back I tried out 3.50$ rustoleum because I heard over and over "It's exactly the same, it's just as good, you're just throwing money away!" and surprise surprise, the models looked like I had primed them twice, I got pools in the recesses, and every single model came out god damn sticky.

There's probably a level of "damn it muscle memory" going on there, if you operate a can of Rustoleum the same way you operate a can of Army Painter I'd fully expect you to get poor results. Yes it covers a tad thicker, but I've never had a model come out sticky and (at least in my experience) it's not just $6 vs $3.50, it's $6 vs $3.50 that covers ten times as many models.

But to paraphrase; I'm no pro-painter and I'm not entering any contests, but I like to think I review for the everyman and considering I've been painting for most of my life the average gamer is even worse than me. The non-sarcastic version is if I can get someone past the hump of cost/time/details are too small/whatever so they have a sea of blue and silver dudes with a decent blue-wash effect (or whatever) instead of a sea of sprue-gray dudes then I consider that a win.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/07 17:13:19


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





I started 40k last year and here’s my perspective on starting your army:

Painting takes a long time so don’t be in a rush to get a painted army to the table, unless your a natural.

Try to get the basics right before moving into things like wet blending and edge highlighting. Get your bases smooth and even and your layer paints the right consistency (thinness) for building up multiple layers.

There are loads of tutorials on line but this means there are lots of different techniques and you need to find one that suits you

If your really keen on building up your painting technique to a high standard don’t bother with the games workshop tutorials although I think their concept of battle ready and parade ready is worth taking on board

The only good GW brush is the shade brush otherwise don’t waster your money like I did

GW paints are good colours despite being more expensive and in those stupid pots so don’t discount them. Other companies don’t do the exact same colours under different names. However don’t buy GW whites. Vallejo white is the best I’ve used.

Painting white is hard. And yellow. And large areas of black.

My best brush is a synthetic so don’t discount them despite what some people say. brush care is so important. I’ve been through about 20 brushes in a year I am embarrassed to say.

Painting space marines can be a bit repetitive and boring because they are so uniform so it might be good to have a variety of units to paint up but don’t buy too much because it sits there unpainted for ages and it’s a bit demotivating. That might be a question of taste. I started with dark angels and now am painting emperors children and having a lot more fun

Get a good tool for removing mould lines and bits left over from sprues cos once you painted over then it’s really annoying.

It’s all advice though, find your own way and have fun doing it. You are already deviating from the codex chapters which is great, I think it’s freeing if there’s not as much established for the army your painting as it lets you be creative. Probably why I am enjoying the EC.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oh! If you're planning to do any kit bashing at all that's a completely different set of tools. Do not just grab your standard modeling scalpel and think you're set. A razor saw and plastic clippers (which look like wire cutters but have a completely different blade profile) will make your life so much easier it's not funny.

   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Apexw0lf wrote:
Hey all,

I have finally taken the plunge and decided to start this wonderful hobby. I have ordered a paint set and 3 Space Marine Intercessors to get me started.

I've been a long time follower of the books and online bat reps and have settled on Space Marines with the intention of either making a Minotaur chapter or my own unique successor chapter.

I am really confused with the changes to space marines and don't really know where to start, as the last time i followed it was all scouts, tactical squads, assault marines and terminators. Now it appears to be Intercessors, Incursors, Infiltrators, Reivers and Primaris marines. i am awaiting a Codex but would really appreciate if someone could bring em up to speed with what exactly has changed (are these just new names for the same units??).

My hope is to try and find a local group that would be interested in running a path to glory type of campaign to allow me to gradually build and model my army.

Additionally any advice on how best to cheaply assemble an army (which box sets are most cost efficient etc.) and also if there are cheaper paint and brush alternatives than the citadel ones.

Cheers in advance guys!


Space marine intercessors are a little larger than standard marines and basically have 2 wounds so are tougher, but more points of course than standard troops (personally i dont like them), a good cost efficient start is a starter kit depending on what you want your army to look like, but most contain the core units most people pick in any case/ But get your head around command points first and battalions etc so you can decide weather you want to build an army around command points as you will need minimum troops etc. you can alsways split your starter kit and sell what you dont want on eBay.

have some games at a store / game venue, be careful of the noob stompas though, most people are fairly friendly and wont pull out the article B-21 clause 3.a rule on your first game and cut you some slack and let you make mistakes while purposfully making mistakes themselves. Nothing worse than being crushed into the ground on your first game but some folk are like that!

the best advice i can give... is when you pick an army, spend a long time picking it, researching how to play with it, what units work and if they play style works for you. For example if you like shooting stuff from the back of the field then Orks is going to end up in tears for you unless you like losing alot and before you commit to buy it, have a play with other armies just in case!
the best army on paper is usually not the most fun to play with either.

- Stick with that army through the good and bad, otherwise you will end up changing armies like underwear and never stick with it with will just = more money!

- Start slow, & paint slow, The worse thing you can do is buy a 2000pt army and assemble it to play with it straight away, you will rush putting stuff together, rush the mold line cleaning, your army poses wont be considered and the painting will invariably be rushed, buy small, build slowly and paint slowly.

- face to face gaming and use models by proxy, by this i mean just stick anything on the table and use it as something out the book, gives you a true feel for the unit, better than buying it assembling it, realizing you dont like them, and putting them on eBay. playing face to face also gives you a chance to see how others play and see some armies up close to decide what you want yourself!

- Practice painting on any old thing, find something cheap on eBay where half the models are ruined and there are a couple unpainted and go wild on them, theyre cheap and it dont matter if you mess it up

On Painintg

- avoid GW paints, they're overpriced and the paint pots are horrendous, they dry out quick, theyre a poor design and paint gets into the lid no matter how careful you are and once they happens the seal is lost and you may as well bin the paint. Army painter offer cheaper paints in pots which will last, there is also vallejo paints which are even better.

- Clean your models! all those mold lines etc, an hour spent cleaning them early on will make all the difference once painted, a good knife and pair of snips are your friend.

- undercoat your models with spray, it might be tempting to just brush on an undercoat, but dont, and spray light coats with a decent rattle can not a cheap non minature spray, otherwise all the detail will be lost (you can go the airbrush route if you want display models but i've managed just fine with a rattle can for over 20 years for anything i paint for gaming)

- Paint with thin paints, slapping on too much paint will leave brush marks, pain thin and stick more coats on if necessary dont try to paint it in one coat if it starts to show through, you will find this alot with reds / yellows etc.

- Paint with large brushes, dont go down the route of using a minuscule detail brush to paint large areas, use detail brushes for eyes etc of course, but paint with as large as possible it will improve your painting skills quicker and make you a better painter with time

- Look after your brushes!! dont leave them standing in water, dont get paint beyond the hairs and wash them properly.

- plenty of YouTube videos on painting to follow the "how to paint" a model for beginners etc.

but most of all there is no right way or wrong way to do anything, as long as your having fun with it who cares right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/12 10:47:29


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Apexw0lf wrote:

There is a gaming store in my town (The Gathering, Limerick). Is this the best way to start learning the rules and playing the game or is there other forums etc.


Heh, glad to hear the gathering is still around! I played in cork back when, but the limerick crowd were always good fun. Always heard good things about the place. Back when I played in cork, I remember cork as being more competitive oriented, limerick was a bi more laid back - I couldn't say I felt this is still the case - it was over ten years ago when I played in Ireland.

I would definitely say to get your leg in the door there and get to know your local community. More important than anything - how you play, or what list you run, what order you collect things, painting etc is who you play against. You need good folks and gaming peers more than seeing them as throwaway opponents or npcs. The people you play with, against and alongside, or even the people you just talk shop to are the most important part of a social hobby. Play with like minded people, even if it takes a while to find them.

Karol wrote:

And by that time the learning curve becomes really strange from my point of view, because what am I learning as a new player, if you are letting me win ?


The basic mechanics of the game, for a start. Getting the foundations down. There's nothing strange there. There's more to sport/games than just a binary winning or losing.
Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.
I don't necessarily ascribe to 'giving them the win', but I ascribe to 'having the win available to them, and give them the opportunity to go for it'. While everyone is different, and while 'the schools of hard knocks' has some merit (in Warmachine for example, losing your first couple of games to earn your wings was a right of passage) I certainly don't ascribe to the notion that you have to go all out all of the time and that somehow this is doing people a favour, and that not doing this is an insult.

It's how we teach kids too. You don't just go out of your way to crush them because you can. That's somewhere on the road to bullying.

Karol wrote:

But letting someone win, is stupid. I have seen people drop out of school,because of them winning . For first 3 months they were winning based on genetics, and when others trained they were just winning by being bigger. And then when the quarterly exams came they got choked out, they didn't knew how to counter moves with anything besides raw power and one person even got seriously injured, because while we train in age groups, the fight cathegories were age and weight. And when they were faced with people who were for 1+plus at the school and had similar weight they got destroyed, as in litteraly the guy had his left collar bone broken.


No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.

Karol wrote:
[
Okey, and now the new person tells you, that they want to play harlequins, or some other bad army. They buy it, training wheels are off, and they get destroyed even by casual lists over and over again. They get less and less happy, and the fun is not there. And now they options are play an army that isn't very bad, quit the game after spending a ton of money on it or stay and hope GW fixs stuff.
Removed - BrookM


And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.

Karol wrote:

On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.


You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/12 18:07:49


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




There's also the chance you do it to a sociopath who decides to respond to bullies with bullets. Especially in the context of martial arts/ choke out, etc.

... all the other kids
with their pumped up kicks
better run better run
outrun my gun
faster than bullets

Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.

I agree that this doesn't necessarily mean you have to let them win. I like the earlier suggestion of making the win available and seeing if the new player can see the gap and make it work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/12 18:20:23


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Nobody ever goes into their first game expecting a win, they'll catch on if you deliberately lose.

But, give them a couple of opportunities for their guys to do awesome things, and a couple of opportunities to seize on your "mistakes" for advantage so that it feels close and there's meaningful milestones for improvement, which can and should after a first game both include additional assets and better system mastery.

Like any tutorial, it's probably also best to leave parts of the system out: they probably don't need to think about command points right away, or even psychic powers if they've chosen an army that's not really caster-centric, or drafting their own lists.

Introduce additional levels to the game as they grow. Focus on the macro, then on the micro. Once they can move, shoot, and assault, then bring in things like tri-pointing.


The goal is not to scare them away by showing them how out of their depth they are. You want to show them both that they can do it, but it just takes a little more. Give them a win every once in a while, but as I said, nobody new expects to win outside of getting lucky or being matched against another newbie and people aren't that stupid, so it should be as often as they expect to get lucky.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"Nobody ever goes into their first game expecting a win, they'll catch on if you deliberately lose."

If you rewind mistakes so they can try again, it goes over pretty well.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Karol wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
It's definitely best to learn face to face.

Just be careful, some gaming communities can be a bit cut throat, hungry for wins.

There is a golden rule. The person teaching must let the new player win the game. It's like the tutorial level in a video game.
If they do you know you've found a decent and mature player.

The hobby is great as it can lead to new friendships, etc


I don't think I heard a worse advice to start anything ever. How is someone suppose to learn anything, if they are let to win. Worse, if they are fooled in to thinking they are winning, they may get a wrong idea about how things really are, and then reality can teach them a much harsher lesson. Better to lose 20-30 games when starting with a start collecting box, then buy a 2000pts army and suddenly face the reality of real meta game, and potential wasted hundrads of dollars.


No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.
   
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Martel732 wrote:
"Nobody ever goes into their first game expecting a win, they'll catch on if you deliberately lose."

If you rewind mistakes so they can try again, it goes over pretty well.


That's a pretty good idea too.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Togusa wrote:


No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.

Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.


Alpha male toxicity is one of the underlying causes of school violence. In a sports school, I would imagine that its omnipresent, and it's difficult to step back and see it for what it is, because within the microcosm, everyone is a part of the culture.

If you act violent at a sports school, you get a warrning maybe twice. And if you keep it up or endanger someone durning training, specialy a ranker you just get kicked out school. this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard about sports schools being said. I did got to normal schools before for 6 years. In sports schools you don't get older kids beating or stealing from younger kids, because everyone is too busy with their training, and if someone was stupid enough to try it , they get kicked out. And no one wants to lose the chance to be on a district or national team. Plus unlike normal schools in sports schools you have enough training, even if you do track, to use up all the steam. non of the 2 hours of PE per week and you can run in the corridors, meaning magic happens, when supervisors aren't around.

I went to a sports school precisly because I had problems with normal schools. saying that the schools and people in them are toxic males is stupid. What about the all the girls from girl classes, they are toxic men too?


Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.

So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.


No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.

what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.



And all of this time, you're what? Staying silent? Waiting to make an easy kill, and take their scalp? If you're teaching someone and they like the space clowns, you can actually engage with them as their peer, maybe even accomodate. I'd point out the harlies probsbly won't do on their own in the hyper competitive scene, and that he would probsbly have to game-build around that fact. Not everyone wants to play cut throats top tier tournament lists. And that's ok. And I say this as someone who is quite happy to accommodate. We, as players have as much of an ability to deal with these things too, and if you ask me, we also have the incentive to do this.

why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.


You know Karol, crushing kids like that on their first day, or exposure to the sport isn't how most folks approach life. It's not healthy. Crushing people. Knocking them out etc - It doesn't necessarily make people humble or learn better. Hell, depending on the person there's every chance they just won't learn, they'll just break. Its just institutional bullying and reinforces a power dynamic where you are helpless.

how else do you teach respect? People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride. heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.

For this way of playing, people would have to tutorial game each other all the time, never stop. And on top of it only play with and against more or less equal in power armies.


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




IT is disservice to misrepresent the game to a new player. Show it in all its GWness from the get go so they know what they are in for.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
Karol wrote:

On the first day of my training at my school evereyone got choked out by the trainer of the 18-20 female wrestling team. Everyone, this was our first lesson on the mat.
People that couldn't deal and learn the lessons to be humble didn't last a year at school.
Um, having done wrestling for several years myself, and multiple other martial arts myself (was actually supposed to be in Prague last week for a fencing tournament), I have never seen anything of this sort occur. Hell, normally you don't even actually get to spar/bout/etc until you've gotten basics like footwork, measure, some technique, etc down first.

Normally I find Ishagu's statements to be pretty intentionally calculated to troll, but in this instance I don't think he's giving terrible advice. While I don't agree that the new player *must* win their first game (or that the first game has have a determined winner at all), I don't think throwing people into the deep end is a universally functional introduction.

you learn those things in younglings. no one starts wrestling at the age of 13, it would be stupid to do. you could get injured very easily by someone who started at 7. Heck you can get injured at 13+ easily too, durning growth period many things happen. That is why when someone starts, the first training you have you get crushed. I mean it is technicly even unfair, because girl or boy, someone who is 19-20 is going to rag doll you with bigger weight and 6+ years more of expiriance.

Our trainers always say that to mold something you need to smash it up first. This doesn't mean trainings can't be fun, specialy camps. And pre events you more or less have to push as hard as possible without being injured, at least durning the forming period. this weeds out those that can't keep up and regenerate fast enough. And makes you stronger, as in physical term of the word. all the micro fractions help the bones get stronger and muscles get not just bigger, but actually useful.

Plus our trainers tell us that we are getting cuddle anyway. In their times they were no safty issues, no protection for people under 19. supplements weren't regulated , so a 16 year old from Prague had to face off vs some roided up kid from Kirgistan who has been wrestling bears since he was 9.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think you should probably use several people. Give each of your friends a light patrol from a different race, and put a token in the middle of each board in a slow day at a game store.

Then give your new guy a nice tank, a nice transport, 3 or 4 fast attacks, and some officers and troops int he transport. His mission? Move from one edge of the first board across the other boards, one after another, taking each token as captured in his transport (or in a pinch, carrying it in a different vehicle) .. maybe 2 tanks. but about 500 poitns, ish.

There should be plenty of extra firepower to bring down the patrols he faces, each time, and you can get different types of patrol and different types of players to try to stop him. Result is, he will probably get somewhere, but not necesarily the whole way through, and that's ok. By the end of it, he knows how several armies "feel" a bit, and probably his tactics improve each board as he crosses the store (especially with all his new friends saying "k, you should have done this here..."

Since he is not set "to win or lose" against anyone with more than 1/4 his forces, odds are low he gets crushed right off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 03:49:05


I know I shouldn't post so often, but I really miss this game, or just going out, or fresh produce, or any of the comforts of life before we started living in the Corona-Grimdark. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I find the best way to teach someone is to point out options (both what he can do and what you can do"

things like "yes I can charge this formation of Havok Marines with my dreadnought, and I'll proably kill them, but that puts my dreadnought at risk of your charging with Abaddon next turn and killing it"

TBH I think there's a bit of a miscommunication here. some people are talking about an actual game and others are about teaching someone to play. You don't teach someone how to swim by throwing them in the deep end of the pool and walking away. (not unless you want to be charged with manslaughter or even murder) you teach em the ropes first. the goal of your first few games of 40k with a total newbie should not be "to win" and it should not be "to lose" rather it should be about helping them learn the fundamentals of the game.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
IT is disservice to misrepresent the game to a new player. Show it in all its GWness from the get go so they know what they are in for.


If you regret getting into the game yourself, you're free to leave.

The objective of demonstrations and of games with new players is to ensure they have fun and want to come back, play again, and desire to eventually gain the system mastery and collection size that the rest of the community has, so that the hobby community can grow.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Only if you are a GW employee.

It's best to give an honest representation of the game so they can determine accurately if they want to sink the money.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 05:53:28


 
   
 
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