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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Martel732 wrote:
Only if you are a GW employee.


If you don't think new people should join the hobby, why are you still part of it?

I'm not a GW employee, but I like having new opponents to play on a regular basis, and I want the hobby of tabletop miniatures wargaming to grow [or at least die less slowly]. I think it's fun, and I would like to share what I find fun with other people. I would wager most people in the hobby who are actively enjoying being part of the hobby feel similarly.

If you are not enjoying your participation, it's a hobby, not a job, so unless you work for GW, then you're free to walk away and play video games or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 05:49:50


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Just because you enjoy it, doesn't mean someone else will. You need to make the ugly side clear from the beginning so they can make an informed choice.

I never said new people shouldn't join. They should just go in eyes open, is all.

They definitely need to know that GW likes to wallpaper paper models arbitrarily between codices and edition changes. And that people will cheat them intentionally and unintentionally. And people will try to interpret every rule in their favor.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 06:19:12


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Martel732 wrote:
Just because you enjoy it, doesn't mean someone else will. You need to make the ugly side clear from the beginning so they can make an informed choice.

I never said new people shouldn't join. They should just go in eyes open, is all.

They definitely need to know that GW likes to wallpaper paper models arbitrarily between codices and edition changes.


what the feth does "wallpaper paper models" even mean?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Oh, it's a card game term. When a card becomes garbage, it's "wallpaper". I guess we could use the term "recyling" since they are plastic? Like how I've got six predators I'll probably never use again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 06:20:18


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Martel732 wrote:
Show it in all its GWness from the get go so they know what they are in for.


I think scaring off the shops new customers like that would very quickly land me on the owners gak list.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Only if you are a GW employee.


If you don't think new people should join the hobby, why are you still part of it?

I'm not a GW employee, but I like having new opponents to play on a regular basis, and I want the hobby of tabletop miniatures wargaming to grow [or at least die less slowly]. I think it's fun, and I would like to share what I find fun with other people. I would wager most people in the hobby who are actively enjoying being part of the hobby feel similarly.

If you are not enjoying your participation, it's a hobby, not a job, so unless you work for GW, then you're free to walk away and play video games or something.


Agree, getting people into the hobby and seeing them enjoy it is as much part of the hobby to me as painting or writing on dakka.

I'm happy for every person that I helped join the hobby that sticked around.

That said, my "teach the new guy"-army right now is just a horde of goff skarboyz with characters running at them. New players tend to lose the game anyways (exceptions do exist), but they get two turns of killing stuff before the tide hits.
You don't need to let them win, but blasting them off the table with a knight army will scare aware even players who would genuinely be interested otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Oh, it's a card game term. When a card becomes garbage, it's "wallpaper". I guess we could use the term "recyling" since they are plastic? Like how I've got six predators I'll probably never use again.

I think the proper wargaming term is "shelved".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 06:57:02


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Karol wrote:

People think they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff.


Hey, that sounds like whats-his-name, some Polish kid who goes on about 40k & Sigmar.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





ccs wrote:
Karol wrote:

People think they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff.


Hey, that sounds like whats-his-name, some Polish kid who goes on about 40k & Sigmar.


LOL

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Street Judge






RVA

Just a friendly reminder that Rule One is Be Polite! Thanks!

   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Hey let's check back on this threa-

"If you beat someone too badly in 40k on their first game they might pull a gun!"

"If you don't beat them badly enough next time they'll have to wrestle bears from kyrgyzstan!"

*Backs out slowly*
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

The "School of hard knocks" introduction only works at school/bootcamp. In hobby circles where a person is giving their free time for their own personal enjoyment there is NO requirement nor pressure for them to turn up to week 2. If you present the worst of a game and the negative and beat them in the game and make it seem like its a school of pain before you get any fun then the vast majority of people will walk away and won't come back.

This approach "can" work in schools and such because you HAVE to come back tomorrow. You can knock them hard the first few days and then guide them into the enjoyment and reward later because you've got an enforced setting where the person has to come back. There is an enforced relationship going on.

Army training can take things further still with a full personal breakdown and rebuilding - agian the rebuilding is critical to the system working and it only works because they HAVE to come back.


OF course either system taken into the extremes is utterly stupid and will backfire. A school of hardknocks that is too harsh will have more people simply quit the enforced setting; whilst if you present the game as unicorns, rainbows and obscene goodness then people will leave once they spot some negatives.








EVERY hobby and interest has up and downsides. The key to a new person is to present a fair assessment, but also to encourage them. To show them the good and positive side. In the end with a hobby we all make our choices on what we do and typically (for most people) we remain because we see the positives and they outweigh the negatives. Meanwhile those who have or are thinking of leaving can only see the negatives being greater than the positives.
A key aspect to realise is that whilst some of the positives and negatives are quantifiable, some are also objective. Furthermore some of the quantifiable negatives are only negative within a specific context. As a result a person can still find a negative a positive because their context, impression and interpretation are different.








For a person getting into wargames at a club which has a healthy and welcoming population they don't have to spend anything. Their first demo games could be with someone else's models; codex; rulebook and terrain. They've not spent anything at all and they can still get an introduction into the game. GW stores do this ALL the time. Same as how you can often get a free mini through some basic building and painting lessons from the staff member if they've time.

Hobby groups can do the very same thing - providing an introduction for minimal cost. Heck Warmachine PG system required those joining up to have TWO starter armies from different factions at least. Thus being able to run demo games for newbies.



After that introduction the new person can start to make their own mind up on if they want to join in and spend some money. And yes there is risk that 5 months down the line they might find they don't enjoy it. That's why hobby money is disposable income. It's money that if we lose it we don't suffer for it. They might think they'll enjoy it and come to not like it; that's fine they've learned, experienced something new, not financially crippled themselves and now chosen to move on to something else.
Same as in any other hobby - you can't decide if you like fishing unless you fish; or photography; or boxing or hiking. Sure some hobbies have almost no start up costs; some have more - if you try out speedboat racing you might spend a fortune renting boats until you make a choice.



That's the risk and that's just part of life and no demo game can fix that. Best people can do is present the game in a positive light. That's not about ignoring problems, its about choosing the positive angle on the experience.

And quite honestly if you're first thoughts of introducing someone new are to focus on the negatives there's a good chance this reflects more on you than the hobby. It's reflecting that you're not really all that keen. You're not telling lies, but you are focusing on the downsides; on the negatives; on the side that basically says "you don't want in on this" and that is you perspective. Chances are you yourself are on the way out. Perhaps you don't "want" too (eg you want Gw to balance rules better) but you are never the less moving out and heading to other games or other hobbies. Your basically NOT the person to run the demo game.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Can't lie; several weeks into the lockdown and I'm not missing the live game much at all.

I still think you are being disingenuous by not mentioning GW's track record and all the horsegak that comes with their games and the community.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 16:15:12


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.

Once, I played a new fellow. Real small game, he had the Start Collecting for SW, and a few extra models. I brought some Daemons.

I absolutely smashed his face in-I lost a few wounds off a character, and a few lesser Daemons. He was tabled. But here's the thing-I did not make a big deal of it. I helped him get into the spirit of things-talking about heroic last stands of his characters, awesome descriptions of tentacles flailing and swords a-stabbing... He had a blast. I didn't brag that I crushed him (because, quite honestly, I felt kinda bad-I didn't think my list was that hard!), I didn't even mention it. He knew he lost, but he had fun. So, he came again another day.

Additionally, different things will appeal to different folk. I studied the rules a lot before I ever played the game-I was pretty competitive from the start. I'd feel a little insulted if a opponent intentionally went easy on me, even when I was learning. Other players, like the chap I talked about above, are more into the story and descriptions. I doubt he'd mind if I had brought a worse list or misplayed on purpose (though he probably wouldn't want to be TOLD that) as long as the story of the game was cool.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Martel732 wrote:
Can't lie; several weeks into the lockdown and I'm not missing the live game much at all.

I still think you are being disingenuous by not mentioning GW's track record and all the horsegak that comes with their games and the community.


So you're a new player interested in 40k/Sigmar/etc....
I'm teaching you how to play this game with the aim of you having some fun & joining us next week+. What will badmouthing the game/company (even if some of it's true) gain me?

*By "us" I mean specifically my circles/the group at the local shop. I will point out that the other shops in the area have differing play styles/approaches. My circles & local shop are fairly laid back & novice friendly, especially on the painting aspect. If you go off to the tourneys that's not my concern.

* I don't own the shop & I'm not employed by it.

* I will warn you if I think some army/build you're interested in is harder to play.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.



The single most important and best game i have ever had i did not win. I don't think i will ever forget that game. This is sound advice.

Also if you can give them a memorable play that they can tell a story its even better, at that point they will not care if they won or lost, they have a story.

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Martel732 wrote:
Can't lie; several weeks into the lockdown and I'm not missing the live game much at all.

I still think you are being disingenuous by not mentioning GW's track record and all the horsegak that comes with their games and the community.


Honestly if your first thoughts of introducing someone to a new game is introducing them to the negative aspects then you're really not a good person to introduce someone to a new game.

EVERYTHING has its downsides and risks and yes some of those are worth pointing out early as pitfalls to avoid. That said if you're getting to the point of pointing out community problems and potential worries there then chances are you're not going to get many new players. Heck if your local community has major issues you have to warn people of during an introduction then freaking heck it sounds like your local group needs a kick up the backside to sort their problems out. Or the group is too far gone and it would be better to start a new club to welcome people to the hobby.


Again if your first and early welcoming thoughts are the negative then either your local area has serious problems and/or you're focusing too much on the bad because you, yourself are on the out and moving onto other things and thus not as interested as you once were and are choosing to focus on the negative aspects.



   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
 Togusa wrote:

No. Showing up day one and getting your teeth kicked in is horrifically damaging to a new player. I would much, much rather see a simple tutorial set up to allow the new player to see how to play. Win/loss should have NOTHING to do with it at all.

Aha, so it is a few tutorial games, they spend 300-400$. Play and then they get the teeth kicking, which by the way seems an odd thing to do post game.
I would rather see the game how it is day one in my first game, rather then find it out later one and be told by someone like Ishagu, that I picked a wrong army or wrong units to play when I was buying them.



If they want to jump all in without research and do a karol, then that's on them. Personally I'd advise them to build up slower than that.

Regarding seeing how the game is on day one, the game is whatever you make of it. The toxic soul destroying version of the game you insist on is probsbly nothing like the game folks like myself or Ishagu play.

If all you insist on seeing or doing is the absolute worst, most brutal and extreme version something can be , of course you are going to be disappointed, probsbly in most things in life.

Karol wrote:

Giving someone a Bit of 'feel good', empowerment and confidence too, maybe, depending on the person. That can go a long way.

So another words you are teaching someone that they don't have to try, that nothing bad happens, and that nice people will always let you win. This more or less means you would have to do it all their life, and never play real games, because the moment they play a real one, all the feel good stuff is gone, unless they picked a power faction. also false confidance and spending money is a very bad idea.


Not at all. What I'm doing is teaching the game, and encouraging them.

There is nothing there about people never having to try or that nothing bad will happen. Believe it or not, things are not binary. I know you swim in a shark pit, but not all of us are that unfortunate.

I simply value people and would rather encourage them to better, and to find that it's actually within them to do this.

Karol wrote:

No, That's not 'letting someone win', that's either Terrible teaching or them not learning, period.

what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.



I'm teachings them the game.

Why would, or should I stop trying to make people fell good? As opposed to what, making them feel rubbish? I'm a cheerful guy. I'd rather spread joy than misery. Making people around me feel better makes me feel better. I've had enough misery in my life that I'd rather not contribute to more, thanks. This hobby is something of a refuge for a lot of people. Plenty folks come here just to relax and enjoy themselves.

Karol wrote:

why would someone who is selling models or who has a harly army to sell tell anyone to a new player that the army is bad? it would be going against his own interests to sell a bad army or models that are clogging his store.
It has nothing to do with going to tournaments, or at least I don't see what it has suppose to have to do with them.


I said tournament lists, not tournaments. You know, the hyper competitive scene that is about 3% of the game? Not everyone is interested in chasing that dragon.

'Bad' is a meaningless descriptor. 'bad' requires context. Harlies being bad in tournament style hyper competitive lists means bugger all when the person buying it isn't interested in that scene or style of play, for example. Or if it's just for a painting project for another.

And I don't own a shop. I'm not selling models. I'm speaking entirely as a member of the community. A new player tells me they like harlies. And what do I think? I will encourage them, and ask them what they're hoping to do. I can, and certainly will tell them that they're not great in the competitive scene, especialy on their own, and if they want to collect them they'll have to accomodate that fact and game-build around it. Then again, I'd also point out what's great in the competitive season changes with the wind and they'll spend a fortune keeping up so its hardly an empirically 'better' approach. Both approaches have consequences.

Karol wrote:

how else do you teach respect?


In my experience, good behaviour, manners, treating people well, being a confidante, showing good mentorship if it's with youngin's etc. I wouldn't put choking them out on that list. When I went to school, Some of the teachers I respected the most (or people in life generally) never had to do so much as raise their voice, let alone their fists to earn people's respect.

Karol wrote:

People thing they know stuff, that they are strong or that they read about stuff. Or that they were part of a team as younglings, wrestling in full protection gear. Having your first real fight and someone else overpowering you like a rag doll, is not a good thing, it feels horrible. But it is a great base for never wanting for it to happen to you ever again. If someone cuddles you with feel good stuff and lies about how stuff really looks, then you are in for a rough ride.


I don't disagree. Being overpowered like a rag doll feels terrible. Who would want to partake in that?

But Who is lying about how stuff really looks? We are talking about intro games, remember? And ttgs are not 'real fights'. Not everyone gets involved in this hobby to take it to that level. Feel good stuff isn't cuddling people. Or lying to them about life. It's valuing them as people. You lift up your friends. You lift up your family. You lift up your spouse. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, you will never understand the best part of our community.

I can walk people through the game, let them get their punches in, give them a chance to grab the win (and hopefully they do) and still also have a conversation, coming from a lot of experience within this hobby about the good and the bad, and the ins and the outs and ask them what's they're hoping to do in their journey, and from that point, point them in the right direction. No lies. That's just disrespectful.

Karol wrote:

heck you could have 4 weeks of cuddled training, then have your first fight, bust a joint or muscle, and your dreams of ever becoming a sports man just went down the drain. heck you can't even stay in school if you can't fully recover. w40k is the same. 1 month of honey moon period of people letting you win in tutorial games, making you feel good, you buy in to you think is good based on the tutorial games you just played. And suddenly GW decides to errata or faq stuff, and not only is the stuff you just paid hard cash for bad, but also you suddenly find out that the tutorial games weren't very indicative of how real games look like.


Yes because 40k is just like that where we choke people out and give them life limiting injuries to prove a point...

If only people could, you know, do something like talk about this kind of stuff to the folks that are getting into the hobby. And maybe, let them know that there is a competitive scene out there that encompasses about 1 or 2% of the game options that sees most other lists as prey. Let them know that gw is notorious for balance . But that scene isn't the 'real game', despite what it's adherents claim. It's no more the real game any more than what me or Ishagu play is the real game. The game is whatever you make of it. If they want to do tournaments, or play with the sharks, best of luck with them. But I'll have told them about the sharp teeth out there first, because that's the right thing to do.


Karol wrote:

And on top of it only play with and against more or less equal in power armies.


I thought that was the point.

Or are you advocating seal clubbing as a legitimate form of the game?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 17:58:48


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




You say badmouth, I say give fair warning.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd say it's not as important whether the new player wins or loses, what matters is if they have FUN.



The single most important and best game i have ever had i did not win. I don't think i will ever forget that game. This is sound advice.

Also if you can give them a memorable play that they can tell a story its even better, at that point they will not care if they won or lost, they have a story.


Yeah, I don't even remember who ended up winning the game that got me into 40k. We got half the rules wrong, but I still remember my grey hunters melta bombing an ork dreadnought, immobilizing it but being stuck in combat with it as it proceeded to shred them, ragnar blackmane sweeping a whole unit of ork boyz after they totally wiped his squad, bjorn fighting deffcoptas like king kong fighting biplanes, and spending 20 minutes trying to figure out exactly what a deffrolla did and laughing about Death or Glory rolls.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Martel732 wrote:
You say badmouth, I say give fair warning.


Badmouthing, insulting, warning

It's all language and choices that describe a highly negative connection.


What about information, making aware, opening their horizons. There are ways and choices of language and presentation and when information is presented which are suitable. A beginner is (unless they express direct interest) perhaps not going to be worried about the top tournament balance. Probably for several years until they are learned enough to be in a position to win no matter if they've the weakest army in the meta or a meta beating super list.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




FIne. "Making aware" of GW's BS and the pedantry of this community.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Sorry, I have to backtrack a bit: "...and jumps in with a $300-$400 purchase". That's the base rules, Codex, a Start Collecting box, and maybe enough troop purchases to get up to a battalion.

Hardly seems like a jump in at the deep end.

   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's still a lot of money. They should be made aware of all GW's problems.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
It's still a lot of money.

"You must be new here."

I do think it's a bit ironic that the cheapest 2000 point army you can build is probably three Castellans (which is the most expensive single kit they make without getting into FW stuff) and that will still set you back $500 plus another $100 for the rules. ...at least I think that fits in 2000 points. Hold that thought.

Nope, two Castellans and a Valiant. Same kits though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 18:55:27


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Martel732 wrote:
It's still a lot of money. They should be made aware of all GW's problems.


Its a lot of money to some people. Other people i know that are into MTG kept hearing how costly it was then we showed them for about $600 can get a full army with rules thats good for at least a year before you need to buy another $40 book, and maybe a unit here or there to have fun with, but in general all models are good for years. Their jaws dropped and laughed as they spend that every 6 months. Two of them literally sold a couple decks and bought everything they needed to play and then some.

Another friend works on cars... he has 6k into his current car. Just one part is more than most armies.

So is being "costly" is dependent on who you ask.

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
It's still a lot of money. They should be made aware of all GW's problems.


Price is relative.

A pint costs me a fiver.

Couple of beers for me and mrs deadnight, and maybe a pub grub is the best part of forty or fifty quid for a handful of hours.

Hell you should see what a pair of her shoes costs.

Trip to the cinema, with snacks is the best part of forty quid for a few hours.

My console cost me a few hundred, and games are up to sixty quid a pop, and some you're done with after a run through of a few hours (shakes fist at resi 3 remake) with a very limited replay.

Couple of hundred quid for an army - for the raw material it's silly, like most things. But for the value you can get, if you value those things - it's huge.

And yes, you should give an honest appraisal of things - that includes the downsides, but let's be fair, give the full picture and also give the upsides, and the mitigations of said downsides as well.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The models are beautiful. That's the primary upside. The rules have pretty much always been gak.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

Martel732 wrote:
FIne. "Making aware" of GW's BS and the pedantry of this community.

The fact thet you're insisting on arguing this point is kind of amusing.

Only kind of, though.






Karol wrote:

what are you teaching people, if you are teaching them to feel good? when do you stop, and why would they were to expect for you to ever stop doing that.

It's a game. The point of the game is to have fun. If they're not 'feeling good' at the end of the experience, you're doing it wrong.

 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




Sentient Void

Transparency on some level is important. A person considering entry into the hobby should know about the full expense, length of games, required knowledge level to enjoy the game, expectation (or not) of the group to have models painted, etc. Underselling the financial requirements, time, or hobby is simply underhanded politics that aims to support the institution at the expense of the individual.

Member of the Coalition for an Asmodee buy out of Games Workshop 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






There is a difference in providing transparency and actively trying to drive people away from a hobby you stopped enjoying like Martel suggests.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
 
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