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Martel732 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
As said elsewhere: guard vehicles have 3+ and no inv. And also a lot of T7 where Melta is pretty good. Not every faction runs around with inv saves

They are also cheap and more numerous than units like this can successfully engage. Not EVERY faction runs around, but if I purchase melta at the current prices, and draw an invuln faction, I'm really boned.

"should soak 2-3 turns of massive firepower before dying."

Then they need to cost a lot more. Everything dies now. If you want units to be an exception, they need to pay a LOT of points.

You realise knights avarage over 400 points aka 12 Eliminators.
And 12 Eliminators kill 1 Knight in 1 shooting phase with the standard CM & LT buff.

Ice_can wrote:
Actually with standard CM and lT rerolls 1 unit of 3 kills a venom (unless it has a FNP or +INV trate) outside of melta range on avarages.
And a Venom is probably the worst sort of unit you could shoot at with them too.

Well, everyone is trotting out T7 3+ for their examples. I care very much about shooting Drukahri and other invuln units in general, though. I've been consistent with this. Maybe that changes with vehicles shooting into combat.

CM strat needs squatted at this point. It's assumed in every calculation for a reason.

Not gonna lie, if you are a knight player and you let anti-tank infantry within 24" of you without wiping it off the board in the shooting phase, pick another faction. These guys aren't even priced yet. Given their apparent statline T5 3w each, with double shooting multi-meltas, I'm guessing they are Elites or Heavy, with about 50-75ppm. Ala Custodes level costs.

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Actually with standard CM and lT rerolls 1 unit of 3 kills a venom (unless it has a FNP or +INV trate) outside of melta range on avarages.
And a Venom is probably the worst sort of unit you could shoot at with them too.

Well, everyone is trotting out T7 3+ for their examples. I care very much about shooting Drukahri and other invuln units in general, though. I've been consistent with this. Maybe that changes with vehicles shooting into combat.

CM strat needs squatted at this point. It's assumed in every calculation for a reason.

I did the maths vrs Armigers and Knights and everything and these guys worst match up so far is a venom and they toast that for about a 55-70% return on expected points cost, possibly more depending on the price of a venom in 9th.

Yeah Reroll everything was the worst idea for balancing marines especially now the -3to hit BS has been removed. Marines hit 75%of the time at worse and 89% of the time otherwise.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, if you are a knight player and you let anti-tank infantry within 24" of you without wiping it off the board in the shooting phase, pick another faction. These guys aren't even priced yet. Given their apparent statline T5 3w each, with double shooting multi-meltas, I'm guessing they are Elites or Heavy, with about 50-75ppm. Ala Custodes level costs.

I didn't want to bring that up. Maybe outflank them? I get the frustration with all the oldmelta, though. I'm just not sure this squad is that terrible in the scheme of all possible foes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Actually with standard CM and lT rerolls 1 unit of 3 kills a venom (unless it has a FNP or +INV trate) outside of melta range on avarages.
And a Venom is probably the worst sort of unit you could shoot at with them too.

Well, everyone is trotting out T7 3+ for their examples. I care very much about shooting Drukahri and other invuln units in general, though. I've been consistent with this. Maybe that changes with vehicles shooting into combat.

CM strat needs squatted at this point. It's assumed in every calculation for a reason.

I did the maths vrs Armigers and Knights and everything and these guys worst match up so far is a venom and they toast that for about a 55-70% return on expected points cost, possibly more depending on the price of a venom in 9th.

Yeah Reroll everything was the worst idea for balancing marines especially now the -3to hit BS has been removed. Marines hit 75%of the time at worse and 89% of the time otherwise.

I picked venom because I always struggle vs them. I can't stand -1 to hit 5++ units.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, if you are a knight player and you let anti-tank infantry within 24" of you without wiping it off the board in the shooting phase, pick another faction. These guys aren't even priced yet. Given their apparent statline T5 3w each, with double shooting multi-meltas, I'm guessing they are Elites or Heavy, with about 50-75ppm. Ala Custodes level costs.

They are 5PL so 90-110 ish most likely 35 points each 105 for 3 about the max 5PL is acceptable for.
Roumered leak is 40ppm for them but at that they should be PL6.

The shoot them off the board sounds reasonable untill you realise in 9th edition terrain they can shoot through obscuring terrain while knight's can't shoot at them.
They should be able to pick up a -1 to hit and a +1 to their save easily as they are infantry while a knight gets 0 help from terrain.

Also m5 plus 24 inch range with 24 inches deployment zoen to deployment zone is kind of an issue of stay out of range.

So the math should very similar for T7 5++ FW dreads right? Because I really hate those things too. They just don't have -1 to hit.

I still see this as GW recognizing the ineffectiveness of melta in 8th, but then coming up with the most hamfisted "fix" possible. And only for primaris.

Martel732 wrote:
So the math should very similar for T7 5++ FW dreads right? Because I really hate those things too. They just don't have -1 to hit.

I still see this as GW recognizing the ineffectiveness of melta in 8th, but then coming up with the most hamfisted "fix" possible. And only for primaris.

It's a bit better due to them lacking the -1 to hit which bumps the hit ratio to 89% with CM.

I"m always shooting as BA so this colors my view a bit. However, I do have the capt aura frequently b/c I don't suicide him unless its critically important.

This is not even a "fix" I would have suggested or agreed to on this forum, which just shows GW's bubble.

Martel732 wrote:


I don't think as much in getting points back as in modifying enemy behavior. Durkhari can basically ignore these guys. That's my concern.

Drukhari are far from being top tiers. SM, even classic ones with no primaris, are. You shouldn't be concerned.

Vs the field, maybe. But Drukhari are still very strong vs marines. Well, maybe less in 9th now. I don't know. BA land is still freaking out over tripoint changes.

Melta used to be key to the BA playbook. Now it's the last thing I would ever put in a list. That I can tell you for sure.

I guess I am just confused and a little let down. What is the point of making other races, if all the best stuff consistently comes down to a single faction/race. EVERY TIME. The last I dunno, 3 new models have all been SM. Shield Primaris, Gocart Primaris and Eradicators. Yeah, necrons got some new toys, but for a race, I have literally only ever seen them on a table once, so I generally don't factor to play against them.

Marines are getting 80% of the new stuff because they are replacing a 30 year old line in its entirety. Not saying its right, it's what they are doing.

Just a thought for everyone pitching bonuses to wound/auto wound for melta. Why not just up the strength of melta to 14 or 16? It works within the core rules/doesn't require another special rule be introduced.

Haven't run the math, but a meltagun that wounds a russ on a 2+ seems like it could have a place coming out of deepstrike. Especially if you swap the current melta rule for a minimum damage of 3 at all ranges or bonus damage up close.

Melta *should* be clearly better than plasma at hurting big stuff, but volume of fire and rerolls mean that that's not really the case. Plus, melta is less versatile due to its limited number of shots. But I absolutely *want* an effective, specialized anti-tank gun. If 6 fire dragons hit 4 times and wounded on 2+, I could generally feel pretty good about fielding them, even if one or two wounds got tanked by an invul save.

Not invuls are a huge deal in my experience. I face guard and marines way more often than drukhari. When I do play drukhari, I"m not all that scared of melta, but my fear of regular bolters and lasguns sort of balances that out. XD

I've also thought about double strength inside melta range. I guess wounding on a 2+ vs 3+ would help a bit.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Just a thought for everyone pitching bonuses to wound/auto wound for melta. Why not just up the strength of melta to 14 or 16? It works within the core rules/doesn't require another special rule be introduced.

Haven't run the math, but a meltagun that wounds a russ on a 2+ seems like it could have a place coming out of deepstrike. Especially if you swap the current melta rule for a minimum damage of 3 at all ranges or bonus damage up close.

Melta *should* be clearly better than plasma at hurting big stuff, but volume of fire and rerolls mean that that's not really the case. Plus, melta is less versatile due to its limited number of shots. But I absolutely *want* an effective, specialized anti-tank gun. If 6 fire dragons hit 4 times and wounded on 2+, I could generally feel pretty good about fielding them, even if one or two wounds got tanked by an invul save.

Not invuls are a huge deal in my experience. I face guard and marines way more often than drukhari. When I do play drukhari, I"m not all that scared of melta, but my fear of regular bolters and lasguns sort of balances that out. XD

I'd like a change that modifies the melta S to 2x if the weapon is in melta range. Still normal D6 damage though.

But of course that would be ok with classic meltas, not the with the superbuffed new primaris meltas.

I'd certainly be happy with meltas having double strength in half range - it makes sense, the thing is supposed to spew lava, and it's not like S16 is outside of the standard rules.

It's a happy middle ground between their standard "even if I hit there's half a chance of not hurting a tank" and mt suggestion of auto-wounding in half range.

That said, auto-wounding is still a sleeker option for quicker resolution, and achieves the same goals of making them likely to hurt tanks. I like the idea that a melta weapon in half range is "if this hits you, it will hurt you".

I think we can all agree that mortal wounds isn't the way to go, at any rate?

Next suggestion - drop meta ranges to maximum of 12". Give the new primaris units guns rapid fire instead, and make it clear that melta will only work if they are in half of their half range if they use it (within 3" to get 2 shots each with melta).

give multi-meltas 2 shots instead of double range

stop making everything so damned rangy - make positioning matter, make gambles happen!

What about a reroll to wound when within melta range. In things like bunsen burners, the hottest part of the flame is around halfway through as this is where combustion is most complete. Applying the same logic to melta weapons, this would be where the energy is most intense and deal the greatest damage to vehicles.

 Tristanleo wrote:
What about a reroll to wound when within melta range. In things like bunsen burners, the hottest part of the flame is around halfway through as this is where combustion is most complete. Applying the same logic to melta weapons, this would be where the energy is most intense and deal the greatest damage to vehicles.

Would also work to a certain extent but I doubt GW would go their as Marines have way to many wound manipulation effects via relics, traits etc, it would make a lot of their traits and LT redundant.
I sort of like it but unfortunately I suspect reducing the efficiency of the 999 Primaris LT army is going to be No Bweno with GW, got to get those Primaris LT sales in, all Primaris LT's all the time.

Would also be nice to see a lot of these Full reroll mechnics go away as they screw balance up alot.

Think about the following:

Las Weapons
Laspistol 12" S3 AP-
Lasgun 24" S3 AP-
Lascannon 48" S9 AP-3

Bolt Weapons
Bolt Pistol 12" S4 AP-
Boltgun 24" S4 AP-
Heavy Bolter 36" S5 AP-1

Auto Weapons
Autopistol 12" S3 AP-
Autogun 24" S3 AP-
Autocannon 48" S7 AP-1

The pistols have the least range and identical stats to the rifles (__gun)'s, then the larger cannons have more range and power (heavy weapons).

Then you have Melta and Plasma Weapons

Plasma
Plasma Pistol 12" S7 AP-3
Plasmagun 24" S7 AP-3
Plasma Cannon 36" S7 AP-3

Melta
Inferno Pistol (basically a Melta Pistol) 6" S8 AP-4
Meltagun 12" S8 AP-4
Multimelta 24" S8 AP-4
Meltacannon 24" S8 AP-4

What if the Pistol and __gun variants were changed to something more akin to the above? This would then allow the Cannons/Multimelta to be rebalanced.

It is still very hilarious having Turn 1 open up with Kappic Eagles dropping 2 4x Meltagun Command Squads and their Tempestor Prime 5" away from the enemy's Lord of War and completely melting it before it can do pretty much anything.

Hmm, seems like there needs to be a blanket +1 to saves for the vehicle keyword but a -1 to invulnerable saves for the vehicle keyword.

Increases their survivability against weapons like autocannons/Missile Pods while making them better balanced against Melta.