Martial arts for kids?

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**Henry**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

You need to learn to strike effectively ... not the likes TKD

What a strange and completely untrue thing to say.

**nfe**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
nfe wrote:
Gitzbitah wrote:
I'd Add to that the nice bonus that if your young one gets in a fight at school and kicks a kid in the nose, they're going to be in as much trouble as the bully. If they put them in an arm bar, all that it sounds like is they pulled their arm and held them. There's a very good chance they win the fight, and avoid any disciplinary action.

The problem here is that if they try with someone in the street, there's plenty chance the assailant's friend will stamp on their head. Striking and running away is almost always the second best tactic (The best one skipping the striking).

You are statistically very likely to end up on the floor if you are assailed in the street, this chance increases exponentially when assailed by more than one person. You may as well know what you are doing when you are down there. You can also use the persons friends as leverage.... "Tell them to stop or I will fully break this arm, choke you unconscious etc etc".

You need to learn to strike effectively (Muay Thai, Boxing etc, not the likes TKD), but you need to be able to deal with worse case scenarios. BJJ will teach you how to choke a person who is considerably larger than you unconscious whilst your back is on the floor (or break limbs, or destroy the ligaments in a person knee to the point they won't be walking with ease, let alone running after you). It's genuinely the best anti sexual assault martial art, with the only real arguments being Sambo or other submission grappling based arts.

Also, and whilst I do advocate physical conditioning and learning to strike. Females are going to struggle to attack a man with enough force striking wise to deter them whilst they run away, secondly, plenty of men will be able to catch them. I had a male student in my class last year, he had a mediocre at best 100m time, it was in the top 10 womens 100m times in that year... You can't rely on being faster and fitter, always be prepared for that not to work.

Listen to what the likes of Jocko Willick say about it. If you are truly, honestly and seriously wanting to have the girl taught to a standard where she can actually defend herself, she needs to learn how to fight. It's plain and simple. The likes of TKD don't teach you how to fight, they teach you how to kick in a pattern, with no real pressure testing... It's essentially a choreographed dance that may hurt a little if you used it on another person.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add, there is a strong focus in BJJ and other grappling arts about getting back to your feet as well and how to do that, it's not always about staying on the floor, many people underestimate how hard it is to get back up standing when someone is on top of you on the floor, it's not like bench pressing weight, human bodies don't move and load mass like a static bar.

I take your point. Certainly, if you're going to end up on the ground anyway, you're in a far better position if you know how to deal with that. Also certainly useful if you're caught in an enclosed space one-on-one, such as in a domestic violence situation I think there are a few things being overlooked here, however.

First, usually, you don't need to outrun anyone over a distance. Many times, running away is a concession that they're more powerful than you and that's all they want. Other times, you only need to beat them to where other people are. Statistically, this is likely to be pretty close.

Second, you don't need to hit someone hard to distract them long enough for a head start.

Third, 'leave me alone or I'll break his arm' is a pretty surefire way to make your situation far, far worse. If they relent and you let go then you're back where you started but now they're angrier. If they don't relent then you either go ahead and do it, which is actually psychologically quite difficult, or you don't. Best case scenario one opponent is a limb down but now they really want to hurt you and you're no closer to removing yourself from the confrontation.

This is all assuming you can successfully execute said arm bar or whatever on a larger and stronger opponent. Again, statistically, this is probably also in poor lighting, fair chance there's more than one, and a good chance you've been drinking.

Ideally, you want all the tools, but if you're prioritising skillsets, striking and running will get you out the most situations safely.

**Blackie**

A lot of misconceptions around martial arts & kids.

I started judo at the age of 6, I'd recommend it (or any other martial art) to anyone. It's more dangerous to play football, which I also played for several years, and kids start playing football at the age of 5-6 with no concern at all.

**endlesswaltz123**

Henry wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:

You need to learn to strike effectively ... not the likes TKD
What a strange and completely untrue thing to say.

I've seen many many MANY kickboxers and thai boxers absolutely decimate someone from a TKD background, this only gets worse when you take someone who practices MMA.

I alluded to this earlier in the thread, there are absolutely people who have blinkers over their eyes, and do not want to admit that was they have learnt lacks efficacy. I am involved in martial arts, it's my second income, I analyse it, TKD is a redundant martial art in terms of it's original purpose, it is just a sport now if anything.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nfe wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:
nfe wrote:
Gitzbitah wrote:
I'd Add to that the nice bonus that if your young one gets in a fight at school and kicks a kid in the nose, they're going to be in as much trouble as the bully. If they put them in an arm bar, all that it sounds like is they pulled their arm and held them. There's a very good chance they win the fight, and avoid any disciplinary action.

The problem here is that if they try with someone in the street, there's plenty chance the assailant's friend will stamp on their head. Striking and running away is almost always the second best tactic (The best one skipping the striking).

You are statistically very likely to end up on the floor if you are assailed in the street, this chance increases exponentially when assailed by more than one person. You may as well know what you are doing when you are down there. You can also use the persons friends as leverage.... "Tell them to stop or I will fully break this arm, choke you unconscious etc etc".

You need to learn to strike effectively (Muay Thai, Boxing etc, not the likes TKD), but you need to be able to deal with worse case scenarios. BJJ will teach you how to choke a person who is considerably larger than you unconscious whilst your back is on the floor (or break limbs, or destroy the ligaments in a person knee to the point they won't be walking with ease, let alone running after you). It's genuinely the best anti sexual assault martial art, with the only real arguments being Sambo or other submission grappling based arts.

Also, and whilst I do advocate physical conditioning and learning to strike. Females are going to struggle to attack a man with enough force striking wise to deter them whilst they run away, secondly, plenty of men will be able to catch them. I had a male student in my class last year, he had a mediocre at best 100m time, it was in the top 10 womens 100m times in that year... You can't rely on being faster and fitter, always be prepared for that not to work.

Listen to what the likes of Jocko Willick say about it. If you are truly, honestly and seriously wanting to have the girl taught to a standard where she can actually defend herself, she needs to learn how to fight. It's plain and simple. The likes of TKD don't teach you how to fight, they teach you how to kick in a pattern, with no real pressure testing... It's essentially a choreographed dance that may hurt a little if you used it on another person.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add, there is a strong focus in BJJ and other grappling arts about getting back to your feet as well and how to do that, it's not always about staying on the floor, many people underestimate how hard it is to get back up standing when someone is on top of you on the floor, it's not like bench pressing weight, human bodies don't move and load mass like a static bar.

I take your point. Certainly, if you're going to end up on the ground anyway, you're in a far better position if you know how to deal with that. Also certainly useful if you're caught in an enclosed space one-on-one, such as in a domestic violence situation I think there are a few things being overlooked here, however.

Usually, you don't need to outrun anyone over a distance. Many times, running away is a concession that they're more powerful than you and that's all they want. Other times, you only need to beat them to where other people are. Statistically, this is likely to be pretty close.

Second, 'leave me alone or I'll break his arm' is a pretty surefire way to make your situation far, far worse. If they relent and you let go then you're back where you started but now they're angrier. If they don't relent then you either go ahead and do it, which is actually psychologically quite difficult, or you don't. Best case scenario one opponent is a limb down but now they really want to hurt you and you're no closer to removing yourself from the confrontation.

This is all assuming you can successfully execute said arm bar or whatever on a larger and stronger opponent. Again, statistically, this is probably also in poor lighting, fair chance there's more than one, and a good chance you've been drinking.

Ideally, you want all the tools, but if you're prioritising skillsets, striking and running will get you out the most situations safely.

Nope, you don't say it to the persons acuinatances, you say it to the person you are putting in danger, you tell them to tell their friends to stop, the agony they are in usually means they cooperate and are persuasive to their acquaintances. It's not an ideal situation to be in, by any means, but if it comes to a crux, it may keep you save.

**nfe**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Nope, you don't say it to the persons acuinatances, you say it to the person you are putting in danger, you tell them to tell their friends to stop, the agony they are in usually means they cooperate and are persuasive to their acquaintances. It's not an ideal situation to be in, by any means, but if it comes to a crux, it may keep you save.

I don't think this changes anything, or actually makes it worse, purely because you're introducing another layer of communication in a rapid, high stress environment. I suggest that there are vanishingly few real-life fights where you have the time to give an instruction and have it repeated before their pal has already punted you in the jaw. That requires you to clearly articulate something, have it be understood, and the be repeated, probably within a second or two, with pretty much everything going against your ability to do that. Even getting 'tell'im stop' out before the other one is on you is likely to be a struggle in most situations. If everything serendipitously aligns to allow it, you're still left with very angry attackers and you're still probably on the ground.

Again, BJJ and other grappling systems are helpful once you're forced into a grappling situation, and potentially life saving in the worst scenarios, but if you need to concentrate on one thing then it should always be striking and fleeing as they're vastly more likely to prevent you ever being in that situation in the first place.

**Gitzbitah**

nfe, do you think you might have lost sight of what the thread was about?

This was what's the best martial arts for a young kid to get involved in for confidence and self defence in the event something bad happens.

I would hope every martial art would teach you deescalation and escape as the first option, and agree that fleeing a fight is way better than sticking around and trying to crack skulls for respect.

That being said- if escape isn't an option, and the attacker is bigger and stronger than the defender, because, you know, she's a 5 year old girl, are you saying boxing is going to be more useful than grappling?

BJJ would only become more effective the longer she studied it- my boy stands a chance against other kids twice his size because of his training. I know it works, I've seen it in class and it is awesome. As a female, MDG's god daughter is likely to be smaller and weaker than anyone attacking her. To me, there's a window of what size and strength of opponent you can handle- and training expands that window.

Does boxing work against people twice as big? Or against 3 bigger guys?

I know that BJJ and grappling isn't a good option against 3 guys, but if 3 guys come after a 5 year old girl what sort of training on earth is going to stop them?

I'm not saying don't learn striking, because it is if you must fight, the best way to start a fight. I'm saying start with BJJ because it makes you prepared for the worst case scenario- you've tried to run and been caught, and have to fight from your back.

**nfe**

Gitzbitah wrote:
nfe, do you think you might have lost sight of what the thread was about?

This was what's the best martial arts for a young kid to get involved in for confidence and self defence in the event something bad happens

No not at all. I'm saying, as someone with a depressing amount of experience fighting people who want to seriously harm me, that if I was to spend time practicing one thing for self defence it would be running fast, and second would be a system with a hard emphasis on striking and on full contact sparring. Because being able to strike well and being psychologically prepared to do so are the biggest aids to removing oneself from the situation.

I think if I could have my time back, if I'd taken up boxing and athletics as a kid I'd have been in far fewer hospitals.

EDIT: I do think grappling systems are more fun and therefore more kids are likely to stick at them, so there is that trade off...

**Henry**

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Henry wrote:
endlesswaltz123 wrote:

You need to learn to strike effectively ... not the likes TKD
What a strange and completely untrue thing to say.

I've seen many many MANY kickboxers and thai boxers absolutely decimate someone from a TKD background, this only gets worse when you take someone who practices MMA

Your point being? What you've just said there in no way demonstrates that TKD doesn't teach good striking technique.

I alluded to this earlier in the thread, there are absolutely people who have blinkers over their eyes, and do not want to admit that was they have learnt lacks efficacy.

And I straight out said earlier in the thread, martial arts practitioners will behave like whiney kids arguing about which form is better.

I am involved in martial arts, it's my second income, I analyse it, TKD is a redundant martial art in terms of it's original purpose, it is just a sport now if anything.

Good for you. Now do us all a favour and stop spouting bollocks. The sport has no application in a real world fight, this is true. But it is no less true than how the sports of judo, karate or whatever gibberish nonsense they pull rolling around on the floor in an MMA octagon have no application in a real world fight. The sport is a part of the martial art, it is not the whole of the art. Is your whole second income experience based on what you watch on TV?

**endlesswaltz123**

Do you think the vast majority of TKD techniques have any application in a real world fight? Point scoring with tippy tappy crap? The roundhouse (mainly to the lower limbs), front and side kicks are useful, with the front kick probably being the most effective, and well, that's about it, we'll ignore the punches as you don't go to TKD to learn to punch anyway, and the kicks are based off being given the time and opportunity to pull them off.

Good (clean) striking technique actually hardly applies to a real world fight, because you don't have the time or ideal conditions to establish optimum range and stance, what does cross over is, dirty boxing, elbows, knees, clinching, being able to defend yourself and stand back up if you do fall to the ground, some grappling techniques that are quick to set up and don't require perfect leverage to apply such as hip throws and trips.

I am not actually stating which martial arts are the best, I am stating which to stay away from. TKD is one of them, nearly Akido tier of bad.

My whole second income comes from me being an ex fighter, a practicing instructor, a martial arts promoter, still training to this day, attending seminars and events that are cross martial arts and working with people involved within the sports....

Does all your judgement come from basically regurgitating the sale pitch your instructor gave you that sold you on this useless dream and skill set?

**Argive**

Gitzbitah wrote:

Does boxing work against people twice as big? Or against 3 bigger guys?

The first one - Yes because chances if they are twice as big they are also half as quick.. If you been around working doors you would have seen the big muscle heads in bars and clubs picking fights with some wimpy looking lad coz they they bigger going for a shove and getting dropped by a single shot down the pipe from a guy half their size. I've seen this first hand at least half a dozen times in my life. have certainly seen big guys destroy people too so its by no means a rule or anything lol. Just it happens more often than you'd think when you deal with idiots.

The second one - If you are outnumbered 3 to 1 I don't think any martial arts is going to help you unless you are a competitor at the top level are exceptionally well trained and talented and also psychically gifted(I.e. a big bastard)... You'd have to quickly, loudly and violently drop one maybe two guys and youd have to be very high level to do it. Generally if people are ganging up on you violently and loudly dispatching the front man should be enough to dissolve the situation. But if it isin't there is a high chance one of his friends going to bottle the back of your head.

As mentioned fighting is absolutely the worse case scenario. Only idiots would pick a fight in an unknown quantity. People who have trained would have been humbled enough times to understand the stakes.

I don't think any of this helps mad doc though.
I still think that any sort of sport that offers some sort of framework into building fitness and introduces competition will be better than martial arts.

**trexmeyer**

I think is a good discussion and they touch on it for kids at the end.

NSFW language at points.

Spoiler:

**Ketara**

I can't help but wonder how many of the people throwing around advice in here have actually been in a significant number (say, six plus) actual fights or street brawls in their life.

**endlesswaltz123**

Ketara wrote:
I can't help but wonder how many of the people throwing around advice in here have actually been in a significant number (say, six plus) actual fights or street brawls in their life.

I haven't for over 8 years now due to my profession now and DBS checks, but yeah, use to do okay in them, as soon as I was training and could grapple specifically, I didn't lose one and got minimally hurt (three incidents, all in self defence or in defence of others, not a dick that walked around looking for fights I knew I'd win).

Bringing it back around to styles, If I was a US resident, and you only really have to worry about untrained people, it would be wrestling (olympic styles, with some variance taught in some high schools like folk, greco etc) and boxing or muay thai. We don't have that luxury in the UK, quality wrestling is a very local and traditional thing, with most clubs being based around lancashire. Nothing like being able to utilise concrete to your advantage in a fight, hence why I advocate a grappling art as the basis, with striking needed but not the main focus.

In addition to this, if you are outnumbered, you always try your best to get away, however, if you end up in a confrontation with multiple people you're most likely going to get hurt tbh, maybe badly, the best you can do is to try and take a few with you, it's actually way easier to throw someone onto the concrete that will at least incapacitate them temporarily than land perfect precision incapacitating punches, kicks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not really relevant for kids martial arts, however from a self defence standpoint, if you are in a bar and drinking, and it seems like a shady atmosphere, never finish your drink before getting a new one. Chucking the remainder of your drink in someones eyes can give you the seconds you need to get some distance and start running.

**trexmeyer**

Ketara wrote:
I can't help but wonder how many of the people throwing around advice in here have actually been in a significant number (say, six plus) actual fights or street brawls in their life.

I've only been in three, which is why I reference people with much greater knowledge than myself. Not sure what's wrong with the suggestion of avoid and escape as being the priority.

**greatbigtree**

Regarding MA for kids, it’s hard to go wrong with any. If the core teachings are respect and self control, any child would do well with that.

When it comes to surviving a brawl, from experience, grappeling is invaluable, if you’re a big guy, which I am. Soaking a couple hits and then engaging a submission hold / debilitation damage is, from experience, the best way to deal with unarmed attackers.

- If they’re striking, disable their ability to strike by taking out their limbs. At that point they can’t mount a defence. Fight is over for them.

However, a 5-year old is never going to mount a defence worthy of being called defence. My son is a *big* 11 year old, and he couldn’t take a real punch, much less counter or overpower an average man determined to hurt him. All the training in the world won’t change that.

Kids won’t be involved (or shouldn’t be!) involved in full contact fighting. I’d say until 16, a kid just isn’t ready emotionally to get their ass kicked in an arena-style fight, much less in open combat.

I would strongly encourage wrestling, if available. Learning how to subdue an attacker, to gain control of a situation in a real-world scenario (if unable to leave) gives a person the ability to potentially “pin” an attacker and call for help. Frankly, a proper headlock or choke hold leaves a hand free to call for help or apply submission pressure / debilitating damage to eliminate a threat (UNARMED!) without losing control.

**nfe**

Ketara wrote:
I can't help but wonder how many of the people throwing around advice in here have actually been in a significant number (say, six plus) actual fights or street brawls in their life.

I think I could count sets of six on most of my fingers, sadly. Don't go associating with hoodlums when you're young and think you're indestructible, folks.