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 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.
.

it really is.

BrianDavion wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.
.

it really is.

20 years of being a second class customer tends to leave a sour taste

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Now balance is another matter, but there is a issue at the very core of this game. Warhammer is based on an unbalanced universe. So you either have this semi balanced game that feels kinda like its supposed to from a lore perspective, or you have a game thats more basic, better balanced, doesnt connect with the lore. TBH if i wanted to play a perfectly balanced game, i would just play chess, and use warhammer models as the pieces. .

That's the most ridiculous argument ever. Warhammer needs to be unbalanced due to fluff?

You realize right fluff and balance are 100% separate things? That you can have balanced AND fluffy game? That only reason GW goes for unbalance is to make people buy new models all the time by changing balance around. It's marketing tool.

Game could be balanced and still fit fluff. Marines are super killy in fluff? Good. Quite possible to represent in fluff. Of course as per fluff they are also seriously outnumbered...

Of course this would require a) GW not using points and rules as marketing tools to force sales b) actually have competent game designers rather than people who shout WAAAAGH loudest at job interview(plus are willing to work at low wage)

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.

And your rehashing of the same sad and provocative arguments helps how?

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

GW will always put marines releases first since it accounts for around 50% of their entire revenue.

Marines also account for more than 50% of the products they produce, go figure.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Now balance is another matter, but there is a issue at the very core of this game. Warhammer is based on an unbalanced universe.

The points system is meant to account for that; a unit that is 5x the the effectiveness should be 5x the points cost.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Warhammer will never be perfectly balanced and still maintain its true essence.

Nonsense. The game's essence doesn't depend on the Marines automatically winning on the tabletop. If you want to read bolter porn, be my guest, but the game needs to be more than just a narrative of how the Marines win yet again. The fact that "perfect balance" is unachievable does not mean that any attempt at balance should be abandoned.

 harlokin wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.

And your rehashing of the same sad and provocative arguments helps how?

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

GW will always put marines releases first since it accounts for around 50% of their entire revenue.

Marines also account for more than 50% of the products they produce, go figure.

Marines outselling everything else though has been the case for ages. and it's not even just a matter of "what's avaliable" Indomatus sold out in minutes, meanwhile blood of the pheonix.... didn't. nor did the chaos deamons focused box. we can "explain this" all we want, but GW looks at those figures and draws their own conclusions

the reason they won't do this is because muhreens have to "FEEL ELITE" and they can't do that without min squads of space marines effortlessly mowing down whole squads of genestealer cultists or orks or tyranids.

If I could just...declare that my Eldar will be using Imperial rules, run my Fire Dragons as Eradicators, my Storm Guardians as Assault Intercessors, my Dire Avengers as assault bolter intercessors, my Banshees as Bladeguard Veterans, my Dark Reapers as Suppressors, my rangers as Eliminators, my warp spiders as aggressors.....

......say.......

tneva82 wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Now balance is another matter, but there is a issue at the very core of this game. Warhammer is based on an unbalanced universe. So you either have this semi balanced game that feels kinda like its supposed to from a lore perspective, or you have a game thats more basic, better balanced, doesnt connect with the lore. TBH if i wanted to play a perfectly balanced game, i would just play chess, and use warhammer models as the pieces. .

That's the most ridiculous argument ever. Warhammer needs to be unbalanced due to fluff?

You realize right fluff and balance are 100% separate things? That you can have balanced AND fluffy game? That only reason GW goes for unbalance is to make people buy new models all the time by changing balance around. It's marketing tool.

Game could be balanced and still fit fluff. Marines are super killy in fluff? Good. Quite possible to represent in fluff. Of course as per fluff they are also seriously outnumbered...

Of course this would require a) GW not using points and rules as marketing tools to force sales b) actually have competent game designers rather than people who shout WAAAAGH loudest at job interview(plus are willing to work at low wage)

Not to mention other games have perfectly fluffy rules and still maintaining a good ballance among factions.

One of the big issues GW has is on top of the poor ballance to the game, they have awful ballance to the fluff.

Space marines are supposed to be elite and cool, in the part of super human with aliens and monsters. With factions like grey knights pushing the upper limit of the elite cool status. With primaris and custodies being even mor elite cool in a game and setting that is written rather poorly in more modern times, with more literal interpretations than the more mythic style they often went with before.
This needs to fit in primarchs and titans which even then get lots of exaggeration and pushed into some of the worst styles of power fantasy. With the company also seeming to push for flattening of the rules and less complication to its rules to a fault.
With all of this, some factions do not even get equal tools if they where to expand though poor design or poor planing. The game has been left in a state where both the fluff and the rules are playing catch up consistently.
It’s sorta ironic in a way.

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.

And your rehashing of the same sad and provocative arguments helps how?

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

GW will always put marines releases first since it accounts for around 50% of their entire revenue.

Marines also account for more than 50% of the products they produce, go figure.

Marines outselling everything else though has been the case for ages. and it's not even just a matter of "what's avaliable" Indomatus sold out in minutes, meanwhile blood of the pheonix.... didn't. nor did the chaos deamons focused box. we can "explain this" all we want, but GW looks at those figures and draws their own conclusions

Producing new models would help non-marine sales...

Models sell vast majority of their lifetime sales in first 3 months.

Thus if your faction has had nothing released for years...you unsurprisingly won't be selling much. Most of your sales happened years ago and you are left at tiny trickle sales.

BrianDavion wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
Threads and attitudes like this really add a nasty toxic smog on the hobby. Its sad really.

And your rehashing of the same sad and provocative arguments helps how?

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

GW will always put marines releases first since it accounts for around 50% of their entire revenue.

Marines also account for more than 50% of the products they produce, go figure.

Marines outselling everything else though has been the case for ages. and it's not even just a matter of "what's avaliable" Indomatus sold out in minutes, meanwhile blood of the pheonix.... didn't. nor did the chaos deamons focused box. we can "explain this" all we want, but GW looks at those figures and draws their own conclusions

Indomatus was a way better designed box than both others, it’s the same as when people say sisters of battle won’t sell. They sold when GW put effort into them just fine it seems.

Brian, blood of the phoenix was a trash box and you know it. Stop being disingenuous

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Brian, blood of the phoenix was a trash box and you know it. Stop being disingenuous

Not to mention that when Terminators get a fething rebox for the new edition, they get 1.5x the wounds, rebalanced powerfists, +1S power swords, 12" range heavy flamers....

when banshees get remade into plastic, they get...nothing. And when Jain Zar gets remade into plastic, she gets nerfed. And then you can't buy either of them unless you buy a 240$ box filled with 30 year old fething sculpts....lol.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Brian, blood of the phoenix was a trash box and you know it. Stop being disingenuous

Not to mention that when Terminators get a fething rebox for the new edition, they get 1.5x the wounds, rebalanced powerfists, +1S power swords, 12" range heavy flamers....

when banshees get remade into plastic, they get...nothing. And when Jain Zar gets remade into plastic, she gets nerfed. And then you can't buy either of them unless you buy a 240$ box filled with 30 year old fething sculpts....lol.

I feel like someone said they cannot rework the banshees without doing all the other aspects somewhere in management, and naively thought the models alone would carry the box. It was a pathetic release all over, selling it on hopes and very lack lustre promises.

I also feel like there attempt at a reboot with Ynarri just failed and they found they have no ideas left for craftworld eldar.

Have we logically concluded this entire thread and all contents is just a whine about GW and marines? Can it be closed now?

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Brian, blood of the phoenix was a trash box and you know it. Stop being disingenuous

Not to mention that when Terminators get a fething rebox for the new edition, they get 1.5x the wounds, rebalanced powerfists, +1S power swords, 12" range heavy flamers....

when banshees get remade into plastic, they get...nothing. And when Jain Zar gets remade into plastic, she gets nerfed. And then you can't buy either of them unless you buy a 240$ box filled with 30 year old fething sculpts....lol.

I feel like someone said they cannot rework the banshees without doing all the other aspects somewhere in management, and naively thought the models alone would carry the box. It was a pathetic release all over, selling it on hopes and very lack lustre promises.

I also feel like there attempt at a reboot with Ynarri just failed and they found they have no ideas left for craftworld eldar.

Yeah, CWE feel a bit out of sorts with 40k to be honest, I mean you have the Imperium of man, this massive empire, etc and you have the barbarians braying at the gate etc. each of the non-IoM races basicly represents a differant "end game" if you will. be it the corruption and conquest of chaos, the literal barbarians over running the empire (Orks) falling pray to sadistic raiders (dark eldar) being consumed by the Tyranids. Having their life and very souls snuffed out by the Necrons (the Pariah nexus was a wonderful idea, it basicly means the IoM is, where the warp is concerned, trapped between the extremes of the necrons and the forces of chaos. neither of which is desirable) subverted by xenos diplomacy into giving up the soverigty (the Tau)

With craftworld eldar, the problem is... where's the threat? how are the CWE going to, if not stopped going to put an end to the Imperium of Man?
from a story POV... there's no real hook for the CWE, which I def think is a problem

Ahh you see Brian, that there is the power of story agency. Surprisingly enough Eldar have none of it

Marines outselling everything else though has been the case for ages. and it's not even just a matter of "what's avaliable" Indomatus sold out in minutes, meanwhile blood of the pheonix.... didn't. nor did the chaos deamons focused box. we can "explain this" all we want, but GW looks at those figures and draws their own conclusions

Comparing Indomitus and Blood of the Phoenix is a bit weird. Indomitus was all new models at an unbelievable low price tag. Blood of the Phoenix was a few resculpts(of models that have been underperforming) padded with garbage that hasn't been selling for ages at an extremely high price tag. Wrath and Rapture was at a better price but still included a lot of old models that most Chaos Daemons players have plethora of.

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody, should be using the Indomitus box to make a point against other boxes as the Indomitus box was on a completely different level.

BrianDavion wrote:


With craftworld eldar, the problem is... where's the threat? how are the CWE going to, if not stopped going to put an end to the Imperium of Man?
from a story POV... there's no real hook for the CWE, which I def think is a problem

So in this vast setting, with a multitude of factions, the only thing that gives anything value is how it interacts with and affects The Imperium of Man.

Eh, he clearly enjoys his HFY fiction.

BrianDavion wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Brian, blood of the phoenix was a trash box and you know it. Stop being disingenuous

Not to mention that when Terminators get a fething rebox for the new edition, they get 1.5x the wounds, rebalanced powerfists, +1S power swords, 12" range heavy flamers....

when banshees get remade into plastic, they get...nothing. And when Jain Zar gets remade into plastic, she gets nerfed. And then you can't buy either of them unless you buy a 240$ box filled with 30 year old fething sculpts....lol.

I feel like someone said they cannot rework the banshees without doing all the other aspects somewhere in management, and naively thought the models alone would carry the box. It was a pathetic release all over, selling it on hopes and very lack lustre promises.

I also feel like there attempt at a reboot with Ynarri just failed and they found they have no ideas left for craftworld eldar.

Yeah, CWE feel a bit out of sorts with 40k to be honest, I mean you have the Imperium of man, this massive empire, etc and you have the barbarians braying at the gate etc. each of the non-IoM races basicly represents a differant "end game" if you will. be it the corruption and conquest of chaos, the literal barbarians over running the empire (Orks) falling pray to sadistic raiders (dark eldar) being consumed by the Tyranids. Having their life and very souls snuffed out by the Necrons (the Pariah nexus was a wonderful idea, it basicly means the IoM is, where the warp is concerned, trapped between the extremes of the necrons and the forces of chaos. neither of which is desirable) subverted by xenos diplomacy into giving up the soverigty (the Tau)

With craftworld eldar, the problem is... where's the threat? how are the CWE going to, if not stopped going to put an end to the Imperium of Man?
from a story POV... there's no real hook for the CWE, which I def think is a problem

There is a lot you can do with a enigmatic race that is both friend and foe, working in the background to push you forward when it suits them. But that own forward momentum often pushed right into there enemy’s just as often.
The issue is here, GW wants simple in a setting already set up to be quite complex. There is a fantastic ideas in the background of aliens and when and when not to deal with them.
Putting the imperium up as this impenetrable thing is the simple idea, they could be the worst threat the imperium ever face, the one that never lets them know they are just that.
And that’s very grim dark, inquisition and the lords dealing with the craftworlds to push there own agenda, playing games with the lives of the humans under there charge, to stay ahead of the threats they see outside the imperium.
The issue really just comes down to there own poor setting design at this point, the craftworlds should be the alien ally the imperium works with. The ones they think they can deal with diplomatically and on equal terms.
This doesn’t mean they cannot battle, cannot have open warfare on planets at times.

There is a lot of grim dark to an alien invasion sanction and covered up by the inquisition or the high lords to deal with a small cult threat or a pesky government that is difficult to handle for the position the imperium is in.
And lots of open places for the game to go with them :-)

I wouldn't go as far as some on this thread have and would agree that Xenos need more model releases but this forum has become almost unreadable over the past while due to every other post essentially being the same sarcastic post about Space Marines/NPC's/little Timmy etc

Here's my new Eldar list:

Supreme Command Detachment: Robute Guilliman (Avatar of Khaine) 380, Warlord for +2CP total
Battalion Detachment:
HQ: Librarian in Phobos Armor 100 (Warptime power, Terrify Power But Also With -1 To hit)
HQ: Primaris Librarian 95 (Mind War UM Power, Might of Heroes to buff the Avatar)

(2 farseers, gets me access to more psychic powers than my Eldar get)

Troops: Assault Intercessor Squad 95 (Storm Guardians)
Troops: incursor Squad 105 (Striking Scorpions)
Troops: Intercessor Squad 100, Sergeant with Power Sword 5, Assault Boltguns (Dire Avenger squad with Dire Sword exarch)

Elites: 3x Bladeguard Veterans 105 (Warlock Conclave)
Elites: Redemptor Dreadnought with Storm Bolters, Heavy Flamer, Onslaught Gatling (Wraithlord)
Elites: 9x Reivers with Knives (Howling Banshees)

Heavy: 3x Eradicators (Fire Dragons)
Heavy: 3x Eradicators (Fire Dragons)

Fast: 5x Bolt Inceptors (Swooping Hawks)
Fast: 3x Outriders (Shining Spears)
Fast: 3x Suppressors (Dark Reapers)

This list will "feel like" eldar more than any list I can make out of Codex: Eldar. I get to fall back and shoot with everything, if I stay in Tactical doctrine as long as possible I get a better version of Battle Focus, the Avatar still has an open hand and a sword weapon, does a better job of representing "inspiring my eldar to incredible feats of combat prowess" and still gets back up when he dies (but without spending CP to do it!). I get 2CP more than any opponent representing my Eldar strategic prowess/foresight, and I no longer have to wonder why a hyperadvanced race that had space travel while mankind was discovering fire decided to make their armor as gakky as imperial conscripts and their guns shittier versions of the old obsolete space marines' guns.

if anyone asks "hey why are your weenie elves so tough" I'll just say that they have super-advanced ultra space armor that makes Iron Man's suit look like medieval knight armor, and that's represented by their 3+ armor save and 2 T4 wounds.

Dai wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as some on this thread have and would agree that Xenos need more model releases but this forum has become almost unreadable over the past while due to every other post essentially being the same sarcastic post about Space Marines/NPC's/little Timmy etc

That’s kinda the thing, a lot of factions really only need one model and smart selection to be way better.
Sisters of silence is a good example I think, they only really need a HQ and could probably just use all the space marines vehicles.
GW could even update the rhino line for all the marines with cool hover upgrade or still tracked to make a lot of people happy.

New falcon and wave serpent update could be used in both craftworld and halequin, and a update to ynarri as a dark eldar force that gains access to some of the craftworld units could use it as well but loses some of the other dark eldar units that don’t make as much sense in a mixed force without faction dissent.

I think that’s where so much animosity can come from, it’s not just one thing but often a failure across the board of GW to cater to some of there customers where they could expand a whole faction or two with one release and someone working a half day that cared.

To the idea above, I have been using my chaos marines are loyal marines for years. And it’s never really failed to stay on theme. The rules of 40k just are not that deep.

Apple fox wrote:

Dai wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as some on this thread have and would agree that Xenos need more model releases but this forum has become almost unreadable over the past while due to every other post essentially being the same sarcastic post about Space Marines/NPC's/little Timmy etc

That’s kinda the thing, a lot of factions really only need one model and smart selection to be way better.
Sisters of silence is a good example I think, they only really need a HQ and could probably just use all the space marines vehicles.
GW could even update the rhino line for all the marines with cool hover upgrade or still tracked to make a lot of people happy.

New falcon and wave serpent update could be used in both craftworld and halequin, and a update to ynarri as a dark eldar force that gains access to some of the craftworld units could use it as well but loses some of the other dark eldar units that don’t make as much sense in a mixed force without faction dissent.

I think that’s where so much animosity can come from, it’s not just one thing but often a failure across the board of GW to cater to some of there customers where they could expand a whole faction or two with one release and someone working a half day that cared.

To the idea above, I have been using my chaos marines are loyal marines for years. And it’s never really failed to stay on theme. The rules of 40k just are not that deep.

I lose out on fielding what seems like an IMPOSSIBLY small number of models fielding this as space marines rather than eldar. downgrading my army to 1W T3 mostly Sv4+ or worse nets me abooooout....15 additional bodies. Give or take. Plus some additional exarch gear options and such.

the_scotsman wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

Dai wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as some on this thread have and would agree that Xenos need more model releases but this forum has become almost unreadable over the past while due to every other post essentially being the same sarcastic post about Space Marines/NPC's/little Timmy etc

That’s kinda the thing, a lot of factions really only need one model and smart selection to be way better.
Sisters of silence is a good example I think, they only really need a HQ and could probably just use all the space marines vehicles.
GW could even update the rhino line for all the marines with cool hover upgrade or still tracked to make a lot of people happy.

New falcon and wave serpent update could be used in both craftworld and halequin, and a update to ynarri as a dark eldar force that gains access to some of the craftworld units could use it as well but loses some of the other dark eldar units that don’t make as much sense in a mixed force without faction dissent.

I think that’s where so much animosity can come from, it’s not just one thing but often a failure across the board of GW to cater to some of there customers where they could expand a whole faction or two with one release and someone working a half day that cared.

To the idea above, I have been using my chaos marines are loyal marines for years. And it’s never really failed to stay on theme. The rules of 40k just are not that deep.

I lose out on fielding what seems like an IMPOSSIBLY small number of models fielding this as space marines rather than eldar. downgrading my army to 1W T3 mostly Sv4+ or worse nets me abooooout....15 additional bodies. Give or take. Plus some additional exarch gear options and such.

And once on the table, it will look rather fluffy as a eldar strike force as well.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

Finally, to me, and i think the majority of warhammer hobbyists out there, gak doesnt need to be perfectly balanced because its never been a "competitive" game for us. We dont try and min/max lists, or find all the most efficient combination of rules and stratagems to create deathballs. We dont try and be little gakkers by going out of our way to find tiny inconsistencies in the wording of rules to find an advantage. Warhammer has always been about meeting up with some like minded friends, building an awesome army, and having some beers and a laugh. Nerding out over each others latest additions to their armies or paint job, appreciating the hard work and how fething badass they all look on the table.

I feel sorry for those who never had this with this hobby or dont want that. Life is to short for all this pent up toxic moaning. Beerhammer for life yo.

Feel free to beerhammer some striking scorpions or howling banshees at a unit of... well, anything really. You'll be here posting abuse with the rest of us before the end of turn 3

I love fluffy, casual games and don't want to care about balance. Unfortunately my fluffy units/lists tend to underperform and get completely annihilated by my opponents; not (just) due to poor generalship, but due to quite significant differences in what you get for the points. Or worse, they massively overperform because GW accidentally boosted them, turning me into a cheesemongering neckbeard in the eye of my opponent. I've come to care a great deal about balance, because I just want to field a fluffy list without knowing I'll get stomped (or stomp) before the first die lands.

Mind you, I'm perfectly fine with infantry not being able to do much to tanks and the like, I don't "want to play chess". It's comparing stuff like intercessors versus storm guardians that grinds my gears (off the top of my hat, I'm sure there are better examples).

hey does this mean we've lost more models than we've gained since the start of 8e?

Gained:
- Ghaz
- Makari
- The completely overpowered squig buggy
- Shokk transmobile
- Rokkitscrew with wheels
- The ATV Lite

Lost:
- Bigmek with KFF on bike
- Dok on bike
- Warboss on bike
- Warboss in terminator-lite-armor
- Old buggies

Am I missing any?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
hey does this mean we've lost more models than we've gained since the start of 8e?

Gained:
- Ghaz
- Makari
- The completely overpowered squig buggy
- Shokk transmobile
- Rokkitscrew with wheels
- The ATV Lite

Lost:
- Bigmek with KFF on bike
- Dok on bike
- Warboss on bike
- Warboss in terminator-lite-armor
- Old buggies

Am I missing any?

Gained 5 buggies, trike, new ghaz & makari. If we're nitpicking the battlewagon getting separated out is another 2 new unit profiles I think?

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
hey does this mean we've lost more models than we've gained since the start of 8e?

Gained:
- Ghaz
- Makari
- The completely overpowered squig buggy
- Shokk transmobile
- Rokkitscrew with wheels
- The ATV Lite

Lost:
- Bigmek with KFF on bike
- Dok on bike
- Warboss on bike
- Warboss in terminator-lite-armor
- Old buggies

Am I missing any?

Gained 5 buggies, trike, new ghaz & makari. If we're nitpicking the battlewagon getting separated out is another 2 new unit profiles I think?

Forgot Big Gunz, Skorchas.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
hey does this mean we've lost more models than we've gained since the start of 8e?

Gained:
- Ghaz
- Makari
- The completely overpowered squig buggy
- Shokk transmobile
- Rokkitscrew with wheels
- The ATV Lite

Lost:
- Bigmek with KFF on bike
- Dok on bike
- Warboss on bike
- Warboss in terminator-lite-armor
- Old buggies

Am I missing any?

Gained 5 buggies, trike, new ghaz & makari. If we're nitpicking the battlewagon getting separated out is another 2 new unit profiles I think?

Forgot Big Gunz, Skorchas.

Yeah it's a fairly even trade overall, just not sure what point it's trying to prove?

I don't know if it would be better if GW divided the armies into identifiable niches, and gave them more or less the same rules with a re-skin; so for example the 'sneaky armies', GSC, Alpha Legion, and Raven Guard would share the same overall design, with some unit variations.