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Deathwing Terminators next to belial shouldn't be hitting on 2s, they should hit on 3s rerolling in shooting (Rockets should hit on 4s if he moved or deep struck) and hit on 4s rerolling in melee.

It's still a heck of a lot more accurate than ork shooting, which is just a hair worse than BS4+ accounting for dakkadakkadakka rule (it's like 45% chance to hit overall) but, ork shooting quantity does tend to be a bit better than marine shooting quantity for the points.

40k is a huge, sprawling game. And yeah, it's tough to know what rules to use starting out. If you play with turn 1 deep strike, which honestly I don't advise you do but if you do, the way I'd lay out your army is to deploy in a corner of the board, and have your bikes and trukk on the outside and your koptas on the inside.

Then just have your opponent go first even if you win the roll off.. There's no scenario he can create where your first turn, you don't get to roll into that terminator squad with that warboss and krump them to bits.

He can:

1) Fail the charge roll. (most likely). He's got a 72% chance to fail, 56% chance to fail if he uses a re-roll with a CP. This will make the game just super once sided, you can just zip your surviving bikers off to go kill some scouts, lead the charge in with the trukk (and use it to stop Belial from heroically intervening to help his buddies) and plow into the termies with the boyz and the boss after unloading on them with rokkits.

2) Just terminators get in and belial does not get in. Terminators probably kill either the trukk or the bikes in melee. That's what we wanted anyway. Also, belial is probably not 3" away from the terminators now, so enjoy unloading rockets directly into his face while your warboss, again, eats the terminators alive.

3) Just belial gets in. Same fun thing happens, and belial probably doesn't get to kill the trukk because he just doesn't have enough attacks. He might kill the bikes though.

4) Both get in. Oh well. they wipe the bikes or the trukk, and then you explode the terminators with the boss.

The warboss with that setup hits on 2s, rerolling, wounds on 2s, rerolling, and makes 5 attacks at strength 10 AP-3 Damage 4, and 2 attacks at strength 4 AP-1 damage 2. He's also got T5, W7 and a 4+ invulnerable save, so after he whacks 3-4 terminators, the surviving half of the squad doesn't even kill him with average dice rolls.

If he dies - 2CP for him to fight again, doing all his gak a second time. If he lives - 3Cp to fight again, and you should have 3CP turn 1 even spending one on Da Biggest Boss.

Your opponent deep striking turn 1 because you aren't playing with matched play rules changes nothing in the 500pt matchup. I for sure would start enforcing it in the 1000pt matchup though, because deep striking your whole army turn 1 is pretty silly once you get to that size game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
You get out of the vehicle before the vehicle moves, then you can move both the unit and the vehicle like normal. As for t1 deep strike I suggest you guys play with match played rules. Match play has the rules that

^this right here. Transports basically give you an additonal 3" of movement for the dudes inside. Also, don't forget your Warboss' "Waaagh" ability, which does allow you to advance and still charge if you're worried about making it particularly with the boss.

Azuza001 wrote:
You get out of the vehicle before the vehicle moves, then you can move both the unit and the vehicle like normal. As for t1 deep strike I suggest you guys play with match played rules. Match play has the rules that

1. No ds until t2
2. You must have half your armys point value on the table beginning of the game.


This stops things like a 500 pt army with only scouts starting on the table. And if all he has is belial, terms, and scouts, that will stop his ds capabilities in its tracks.

Do you happen to have any weird boys? Psycic powers could help you a lot in this situation.

1. I knew the No DS in T1 Rule but it sounded like DA Termies Trump that. Ist that wrong? How can i argue that?
2. where can I find this rule to show him? Never read that, maybe I missed it.

Yes I have one weirdboy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Deathwing Terminators next to belial shouldn't be hitting on 2s, they should hit on 3s rerolling in shooting (Rockets should hit on 4s if he moved or deep struck) and hit on 4s rerolling in melee.

Yes, the termies did hit on 3+ and so on. But Belial does on 2+

I am really psyched now to test this Strategy

The rule is at the beginning of the Eternal War mission pack in the main rulebook, which is where the 500pt combat patrol missions are.

No units can arrive from reserves (i.e., if they are set up off the board and not in transports by any means) battle round 1.

An alternate strategy is, just let him deep strike them turn 1. They'll probably kill like 1 deffcopta in shooting, if they don't target the trukk or the bikes and waste their shots, and then he'll most likely lose in pretty short order.

hitting on 2s, even with a reroll, is pretty standard for super special fancy characters. Ork characters hit on 5s when shooting usually (except maybe for like, badrukk I think?) but most ork characters are just in it for the melee anyway. Klawboss hits on 2s rerolling and wounds mostly on 2s or 3s rerolling, wartrike boss hits on 2s and wounds at S7 rerolling base, meks and doks and waagh nobz hit on 3s but that also tracks with the support type characters from other armies too like techmarines, librarians and apothecaries.

It's unusual for a fighty character to not hit on 2s.

I don't have much to add to the Ork Tactics, but did want to respond to your post about points:

Battlescribe isn't always correct. Always double check points in the Index/Codex/whatever points document is most current or that you're using.

If he is as 503, ask him to drop those last three points. 503 is not 500. It could allow him to squeeze in that last terminator or whatever, which can skew things a lot. Or you should at least have the same ability (to go above 500). But why not 510 or 513?

We double checked the Points Cost with the Points book. Is it called field manual? His Points still stack up to 506... did they change Point Costs recently for Terminators?

@the_scotsman: thx I found it!

Yeah the ONLY thing that trumps no ds t1 are drop pods because their special rule specifically says they can drop in t1. Everyone else has to follow the reinforcement rules from the main book, which the match played rules say specifically you can't do until t2.

Page 282 first 2 paragraphs of the Big book of rules. They talk about keeping units in reserves/reinforcements and when units can be brought in.

Umm how is 503 pts a legal army for a 500pts game? Isn't the limit a hard limit?

Have I been misunderstanding that for the last 30 years?

I think he is referring not to DS but to teleport Homer ability of terminators... what ever that is and however that works... how shall one know that without having all the codices, rulebooks, index options, FAQs...


Yes we agreed he could use 503 points... but maybe a mistake on my part... but still, how do you guys get 555P?

I screwed up somehow, but i cant remember what i did wrong. 8 DW termis, belial, and 5 scouts is 478 pts.

I would just like to chip in that scotsman is giving really good advice here, there is little I can add

One thing that he hasn't gone into detail about is your weird boy. Mortal wounds are a pretty reliable way to get rid of a few terminators, and da jump isn't the only power that would help you a lot - for example casting fists of gork on your warboss and some of the clan powers like maniacal seizures could cause serious problems for him if they hit the terminators.

Speaking of clans, have you already decided on one? Otherwise, you could switch to deffskulls for a slight advantage. It's a great all-round clan that simply helps every unit you have by increasing your damage and durability.

If you feel like you need more help from experienced ork warbosses, feel free to join the tactical discussion found here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790345.page

I can also help a bit with the confusion on the Dark Angels.

A death wing terminator is 23 points plus 3 for the storm bolter and 10 for the fist. The sergeant can have a powersword instead of the fist and save 5 points that way. The missile launcher is 25. So the how squad is 8x36-5+25= 308.
Belial is 125, scouts are 14 points a piece, so the unit adds up to 70.
In total 503 points, just like he said.

In general going 3 points over is not that much of a deal. Yes, he would have one less terminator, but is one more really that much of a problem?

My paint scheme doesn’t involve clan colours so that I don’t have to commit. However is mostly played deathskulls so far.

@Jidmah: could you explain the teleport homer for terminators?

I probably can’t Fit a weirdboy in that 500P list, but definitely in 1000P one.

I would just like to chip in that scotsman is giving really good advice here, there is little I can add

True! I will definitely try that strategy. Thx a lot scotsman! I hope I can execute that plan.

NBC_Demo wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Actually that list is quite easy to face with orks, as long as he respects the rules. So no Auspex on a "Da Jump" unit, which is invalid. Also, no deepstriking them because they are over half the points of the army.

Why is that? He said that da Jumped Units count as Reinforcements for Rules Purposes... how would you argue that?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crusaderobr wrote:
500 points match is not really balanced. 1000, 1500, 2000 point games is where its at, 500 point games are kinda like an intro to the hobby, it teaches you how to play the game and maybe have some fun, but thats about it.

Honestly i think we would have almost the same Game... He would just have 2 Squads of Terminators...i still wouldnt know what to do....

You might want to ask for advice in the Ork Tactica thread. Players there who know the match up better will be able to give you more in depth advice.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1020/790345.page

Just make sure to post your list inside of a "spoiler" tag and people are generally friendly and helpful.

NBC_Demo wrote:
@Jidmah: could you explain the teleport homer for terminators?

Well, that's easy - dark angels don't have them, only codex marines (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, etc) do. They get watcher in the dark to defend against psychic powers instead.

Death Wing Terminators have "Teleport Strike" which simply allows them to start the game off the board and arrive anywhere starting turn 2. This is one of the signature abilities of all terminators.
Considering how this unit is more than 50% of his points, he is not allowed to put them into reserves though. You must start turn 1 with at least half your army on the board.

Ok Thank you!

So now its time to get those Bikers done and try the Strategy, I ll report how it went down.

 Jidmah wrote:

NBC_Demo wrote:
@Jidmah: could you explain the teleport homer for terminators?

Well, that's easy - dark angels don't have them, only codex marines (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, etc) do. They get watcher in the dark to defend against psychic powers instead.

Death Wing Terminators have "Teleport Strike" which simply allows them to start the game off the board and arrive anywhere starting turn 2. This is one of the signature abilities of all terminators.
Considering how this unit is more than 50% of his points, he is not allowed to put them into reserves though. You must start turn 1 with at least half your army on the board.

I thought it was based off unit count not points?

Ist both points and units. I found the rules:

Page 282

No more than half the total number of units in your army can be Strategic Reserve and/ or Reinforcement units, and the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.

So we were both right

You flag keeps flip-flopping between France and Germany, do you happen to be from the Aachen region?

No, I just went to France on vacation for the weekend

@the_Scotsman

i have now painted everything except for the bikers. Right now i have a lot of work to do and being a slow Painter (and we want to play again) i wondered wether your list would also work well with a Weirdboy instead of those bikes, maybe 9 Boyz, Bossnob, Weirdboy and Warboss inside the Trukk and splitt the Killakoptas into 2 Fast Attack Squads (Group of 1 and 2)? I know that the baiting Part doesnt work then, but on the other hand i get some Smites....

NBC,

Are you playing with the missions and some Obscuring Terrain? Your friend’s list should struggle playing objectives.

Cheers,

T2B

Yes we do.

I have a trick that might be able to deal with the deathwing using stuff you already own albeit it might not be strictly WYSIWYG

You need:

Deathskulls keyword
Weirdboy
Trukk
10 Nobz +2 ammo runts

Give the Weirdboy Warphead and the spells Da Jump and Maniacal Seizures. Also I'd suggest making Him the Warlord with Follow Me Ladz and Bringing Scorched Gitbonez. Make sure you keep him out of LOS of the scouts.

Give the Boss Nob powerklaw + choppa and the other 9 nobs Big Choppa + Choppa. also bring 2 ammo runts.

Run the nobz in the trukk and make sure the trukk gets to charge in. It will probably be destroyed but that's what the ammo runts are for If he's in cover then get the nobz as close as possible. Either way disembark the nobs at a distance they cannot possibly fail a charge from.

before the nobz would be entering combat use Da Jump to get the weirdboy close (within 18") enough to cast Maniacal Seizures on the terminators without the opponet being able to target him with shooting attacks, then charge in with the nobz.

With maniacal Seizures debuff your doing 37 Str 7 ap-2 d2 attacks, 3 Str10 ap-3 dd3 attacks of which you get 1 reroll each for hits, wounds, and damage, and 10 str5 ap-1 attacks that mathammer out to between 7 and 8 dead terminators per turn assuming you get the first strike.

Alongside the 3 Deffkoptaz in an outrider detachment to give something like this:

HQ:
Weirdboy, Warlord, Warphead, Da Jump, Maniacal Seizures, Skorched Gitbonez, Follow Me ladz

Elites:

10x Nobz, 9x big choppas, 10x choppas, power klaw, 2x ammo runts

Fast Attack:

Deffkopta, Kopta Rokkits

Deffkopta, Twin Big shoota

Deffkopta, Twin Big shoota

Transport:

Trukk, wrecking ball

Total: 500 pts

If your using secondaries you can also bring one of the psychic secondaries and stock up on vp turn 1, 4,5, etc... with the weirdboy when your nobz are not busy fighting the terminators.Its a bit of a skew list but if you play your cards right it should do pretty well vs the deathwing list.

NBC_Demo wrote:
@the_Scotsman

i have now painted everything except for the bikers. Right now i have a lot of work to do and being a slow Painter (and we want to play again) i wondered wether your list would also work well with a Weirdboy instead of those bikes, maybe 9 Boyz, Bossnob, Weirdboy and Warboss inside the Trukk and splitt the Killakoptas into 2 Fast Attack Squads (Group of 1 and 2)? I know that the baiting Part doesnt work then, but on the other hand i get some Smites....

Yeah, that should work fine. Give the weirdboy the power Fists of Gork and cast it on the Warboss if he's going in to do his thing. I'd think a normal opponent would still come forward to you, I regularly find that orks surprise people with their threat range (8" hop out of the vehicle, and they get to advance and charge with a free re-roll).

Putting everything in the trukk also increases the odds that he shoots that trukk instead of shooting the deffcoptas, despite you not risking anything more really (if the trukk blows up the boyz die regardless).

Hello Guys,

Yesterday was the big day. I used Scotsman’s list. However I messed a few tings up and lost the game :( I know what I did wrong for the most part but I have some questions:

would you rather kill Belial with my Warboss or as many Terminators as possible?

Can you Overwatch as often as you want as long as you pay the CP and as long as you are not in CC?

When he substitutes some Terminators with a Dreadnought, how would you play it strategy wise ?

Wouldn’t it be better to take 9 Choppa Boyz instead of Schoota?

Thanks for your help

NBC_Demo wrote:
would you rather kill Belial with my Warboss or as many Terminators as possible?

Difficult question. The terminators are likely to have storm shields so neither is obviously easier to kill, and while Belial doesn't do much damage by himself, he provides the terminators with re-rolls.
In a larger game I would say, pick another target, but in your situation you are probably best off killing the terminators and hoping to take out the TH/SS guys to reduce their damage and make it easier for your other units to kill them. With da biggest boss you stand a decent chance of surviving the turn for another round if you take out all the THs.

Can you Overwatch as often as you want as long as you pay the CP and as long as you are not in CC?

All stratagems, including overwatch, can only be used once per phase.

When he substitutes some Terminators with a Dreadnought, how would you play it strategy wise ?

Easy - just smash the dread with your warboss, your MANz (using hit 'em harder) and soften it up with your rokkits before that. Dreads do get -1 to damage now, but all of these should still put some decent holes into it.
In general, dreads are much easier to kill than deathwing.

Wouldn’t it be better to take 9 Choppa Boyz instead of Schoota?

Depends on whether you expect them to clear out light infantry. Shootas can pink some random wounds off things while keeping an objective safe, sluggas are for pushing infantry off an objective. It really depends on what you want/need.

I play Dark Angels and would never bring 8 Deathwing Terminators and Belial at 500 points. That's freaking nuts.

As far as killing them is concerned while playing Orks you definitely want to throw a wall of Dakka at them. He can't Deep Strike them anyway in a 500 point game. Unless they changed it half your army has to start on the board. Belial and those Terminators is way over 250 points.

It’s also worth noting that Belial, 8 termies and 5 scouts is no longer a valid matched play list since scouts are now elites. Either they need to squeeze in another elites choice somehow, or replace the scouts with tacticals or intercessors- both of which cost significantly more than 5 scouts which means cutting a terminator or two.

On the downside deathwing terminators are significantly more hardcore now.

I heard that Dark Angel FAQ renewed "inner circle" rule to give them permanent "Transhuman Physiology" i. e. DW units can never be wounded on rolls of 1,2,3. Is it true?

Deathwing Terminators, Knights and any character with the Inner Circle rule do get Transhuman Physiology without paying for it.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
I heard that Dark Angel FAQ renewed "inner circle" rule to give them permanent "Transhuman Physiology" i. e. DW units can never be wounded on rolls of 1,2,3. Is it true?

Why don't you go see for yourself?
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/#warhammer-40000