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 Oborosen wrote:

It's as simple as declaring what you're using to your opponent. Barring that you aren't using any war gear, relics, or anything otherwise restricted for use from the chosen chapters rules. It should all be game legal and even tournament legal.
The only issue where this might turn up is in legends and even then, it's mostly an obscure rarity.

That's good to know. I'm pretty sure it works out either way if you treat them as a separate detachment, but what made me think about it was looking at all the character models for the various SM chapters as well as the few that I own and thinking, "What if I wanted to run x character, but I didn't want to paint an entire army in those colors?". For instance, I own pre-Primaris models of Tigurius, Mephiston, and The Emperor's Champion, but I don't really want to paint an army for each.

 Oborosen wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
So I just had a thought and I'm not sure if it works or not. If you use or create a successor chapter, can you use characters from the parent chapter? For example, say you play Crimson Fists normally, but you also want to use Tor Garadon. Could you run him with the Crimson Fists as say a liaison or extra support from the parent chapter? I'm not entirely sure how it all works yet, but to my knowledge most successor chapters use the same special rules from the parent chapter as if you were playing them anyway. That means it should - in theory - be fine, yes?

It's as simple as declaring what you're using to your opponent. Barring that you aren't using any war gear, relics, or anything otherwise restricted for use from the chosen chapters rules. It should all be game legal and even tournament legal.
The only issue where this might turn up is in legends and even then, it's mostly an obscure rarity.

In this particular example that is being done. Tor Garadon is an Imperial Fist, he not a Crimson Fist or a Black Templar. Ergo you can't use the Tor Garadon datasheet as a Crimson Fist etc with Crimson Fist etc rules.

IF you make your own Successor Chapter and you play them exactly like Imperial Fists, you can generally use Imperial Fist named characters and models. At that point you're just using an alternate paint scheme and such and falling pretty much in Counts As.

IF you can use Tor Garadon (I'm not sure what rules/gear his model has other than Gravis armor) as a normal datasheet Captain with a fancy set of otherwise normal wargear you can do that too.

Breton wrote:

 Oborosen wrote:

It's as simple as declaring what you're using to your opponent. Barring that you aren't using any war gear, relics, or anything otherwise restricted for use from the chosen chapters rules. It should all be game legal and even tournament legal.
The only issue where this might turn up is in legends and even then, it's mostly an obscure rarity.

In this particular example that is being done. Tor Garadon is an Imperial Fist, he not a Crimson Fist or a Black Templar. Ergo you can't use the Tor Garadon datasheet as a Crimson Fist etc with Crimson Fist etc rules.

IF you make your own Successor Chapter and you play them exactly like Imperial Fists, you can generally use Imperial Fist named characters and models. At that point you're just using an alternate paint scheme and such and falling pretty much in Counts As.

IF you can use Tor Garadon (I'm not sure what rules/gear his model has other than Gravis armor) as a normal datasheet Captain with a fancy set of otherwise normal wargear you can do that too.

Thanks, that's more or less what I was thinking, though I didn't realize Crimson Fists had their own supplement and rules. I only know of two named characters models for them, Captain Cortez whom I own a model of but hasn't had rules since 3rd Ed as far as I know and Chapter Master Pedro Kantor who is listed as an Imperial Fist on GWs webstore. There are of course several LE models that are themed to them either in box art or actually modeled with their symbols, such as the 25th Anniversary Ancient I own who is actually modeled as Crimson Fists as well as the 2016 Imperial Space Marine who is to my knowledge merely painted as a Crimson Fists in the box art, but doesn't actually have any chapter specific symbols on the model itself. I think there's at least one more whose official box art is Crimson Fists, but I can't recall it at this time.

As for using Tor Garadon as a cool looking but generic equivalent, I'm fairly certain you can do that for any named model. My non-Primaris Tigurius is now a Legends model, so for the most part he will have to be run as a generic Librarian. Non-Primaris Mephiston as a generic BA Chapter Master or Captain is a bit of a harder sell since he really is truly unique looking with that armor of his, but I'm pretty sure it would still be allowed since he has also been moved to Legends and will no longer be supported in the rules. As for The Emperor's Champion, I guess he could be a counts-as for any officer in a BT army, but I haven't heard anything about him being moved exclusively to Primaris or relegated to Legends so he's still just himself anyway. In friendly games, I think any of them could easily be used as their new Primaris form counts-as.

To be honest, with all the LE SM models that are officially painted or even modeled as Crimson Fists, I have to wonder if they are not actually GWs favorite chapter and they just use Ultramarines as the poster boys out of tradition. I mean, if they were so truly in love with Ultramarines, you'd think the GW 25th Anniversary model would have been one instead of actually being modeled with Crimson Fists name carved into the standard so it can't even be used as anything else.

 SergentSilver wrote:


Thanks, that's more or less what I was thinking, though I didn't realize Crimson Fists had their own supplement and rules. I only know of two named characters models for them, Captain Cortez whom I own a model of but hasn't had rules since 3rd Ed as far as I know and Chapter Master Pedro Kantor who is listed as an Imperial Fist on GWs webstore. There are of course several LE models that are themed to them either in box art or actually modeled with their symbols, such as the 25th Anniversary Ancient I own who is actually modeled as Crimson Fists as well as the 2016 Imperial Space Marine who is to my knowledge merely painted as a Crimson Fists in the box art, but doesn't actually have any chapter specific symbols on the model itself. I think there's at least one more whose official box art is Crimson Fists, but I can't recall it at this time.

As for using Tor Garadon as a cool looking but generic equivalent, I'm fairly certain you can do that for any named model. My non-Primaris Tigurius is now a Legends model, so for the most part he will have to be run as a generic Librarian. Non-Primaris Mephiston as a generic BA Chapter Master or Captain is a bit of a harder sell since he really is truly unique looking with that armor of his, but I'm pretty sure it would still be allowed since he has also been moved to Legends and will no longer be supported in the rules. As for The Emperor's Champion, I guess he could be a counts-as for any officer in a BT army, but I haven't heard anything about him being moved exclusively to Primaris or relegated to Legends so he's still just himself anyway. In friendly games, I think any of them could easily be used as their new Primaris form counts-as.

To be honest, with all the LE SM models that are officially painted or even modeled as Crimson Fists, I have to wonder if they are not actually GWs favorite chapter and they just use Ultramarines as the poster boys out of tradition. I mean, if they were so truly in love with Ultramarines, you'd think the GW 25th Anniversary model would have been one instead of actually being modeled with Crimson Fists name carved into the standard so it can't even be used as anything else.

Crimson Fists don't have their own Supplement. They are a Imperial Fist Successor Chapter and if I remember right they're in that supplement, but they do have their own rules. They have their own Chapter Tactic, etc, they probably have a couple relics, and a couple strats in the supplement. Tor Garadon is "faction locked" he has the Imperial Fist faction keyword explicitly (as opposed to the malleable <CHAPTER> faction keyword) meaning (for the most part, normally) you can only use him if you're using Imperial Fist rules. In theory you could "soup" to the Imperium Keyword (meaning your shared keyword is Imperium, not your Chapter faction) but that means losing out on just about all of your faction special rules like Tactics, Traits, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THe Emperor's Champion isn't Primaris, and isn't Legends. I think the Templars got some rules in one of the PA books (Faith and Fury) and would still use those. I think.

Alright. So one thing that I have been trying to figure out. Is Battle-Forged and Chapter specific items/rules/etc based on the whole army or each detachment?

For instance, could you have a SM main detachment with your Warlord running Chapter specific items/rules/etc and an IG side detachment running world specific items/rules/etc? Or perhaps two SM detachments from different chapters? I think I understand the basic gameplay enough to start practicing on my own in mock battles, but I'm still having some trouble nailing down some of the more in-depth things like that. So much has changed I feel like I'm starting all over again.

 SergentSilver wrote:
Alright. So one thing that I have been trying to figure out. Is Battle-Forged and Chapter specific items/rules/etc based on the whole army or each detachment?

For instance, could you have a SM main detachment with your Warlord running Chapter specific items/rules/etc and an IG side detachment running world specific items/rules/etc? Or perhaps two SM detachments from different chapters? I think I understand the basic gameplay enough to start practicing on my own in mock battles, but I'm still having some trouble nailing down some of the more in-depth things like that. So much has changed I feel like I'm starting all over again.

Both. Some rules are per detachment, some rules are per army.

Breton wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Alright. So one thing that I have been trying to figure out. Is Battle-Forged and Chapter specific items/rules/etc based on the whole army or each detachment?

For instance, could you have a SM main detachment with your Warlord running Chapter specific items/rules/etc and an IG side detachment running world specific items/rules/etc? Or perhaps two SM detachments from different chapters? I think I understand the basic gameplay enough to start practicing on my own in mock battles, but I'm still having some trouble nailing down some of the more in-depth things like that. So much has changed I feel like I'm starting all over again.

Both. Some rules are per detachment, some rules are per army.

Hmm. Alright, guess that's why I've been getting a bit confused on it. I suppose I'll just have to parse it out on a rule-by-rule basis.

On a side note, I think I'm definitely paint a squad or two as Crimson Fists. They're color scheme just really speaks to me for some reason. I wonder if Pedro Kantor will get hit with the Primaris beam too, since they seem to be doing that to all the named Chapter Masters.

So I just got a couple new boxes since someone was selling them at less than half retail. One SM Tac Squad and one standard SM Scouts (not snipers). Any suggestions on how to build them considering what I already have? I think I'm gonna make the Tac Squad Crimson Fists since I want to try their paint scheme if that makes any difference.