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 Lance845 wrote:
You can have both good terrain AND AA with drastically reduced downtime, much higher tactical and strategic game play, and a basically non existent first turn advantage. You loose nothing by going to AA.
I personally enjoy greatly the 1st turn tension that arises from smart deployments in IGOUGO, where the player going first is given no room for "obvious" moves, which is partially the reason why I believe beta strike is stronger than alpha strikes. Also the reason why I don't think strike force is the appropriate platform for LOW's ([big huge bullseye = always the main threat priority] + [inability to take in critical mass] = [Claim: LOW's are too squishy, give invuls!]) and believe that the hardships of taking SHA in strike force could may be intentional.

Alpha strikes were only terribly overpowered once upon a time when turn 1 deepstrike was allowed and certain army had access to spammable 9 pt plasmaguns. It's more or less manageable with good deployments and ample terrain coverage because only so many units can fit into any given firing lanes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 21:13:40


 
   
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 skchsan wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
You can have both good terrain AND AA with drastically reduced downtime, much higher tactical and strategic game play, and a basically non existent first turn advantage. You loose nothing by going to AA.
I personally enjoy greatly the 1st turn tension that arises from smart deployments in IGOUGO, where the player going first is given no room for "obvious" moves, which is partially the reason why I believe beta strike is stronger than alpha strikes.


Which exists in AA. Except I would add that it doesn't particularly exist in 40ks IGOUGO. The obvious move is to do as much damage as possible so that the enemy has as small an army as possible to retaliate with thus stacking the advantage in your favor every turn going forward. Want some proof? There was an article posted recently by I think the goonhammers? They did a pretty extensive data dive of games since 9th including some tourny and collected personal results and first turn advantage is still alive and well. You might THINK beta strikes are more powerful but thats just, like, your opinion man. And it's backed by nothing. The data gathered by the community edition after edition says your opinion is a basis for nothing.

Also the reason why I don't think strike force is the appropriate platform for LOW's ([big huge bullseye = always the main threat priority] + [inability to take in critical mass] = [Claim: LOW's are too squishy, give invuls!]) and believe that the hardships of taking SHA in strike force could may be intentional.

Alpha strikes were only terribly overpowered once upon a time when turn 1 deepstrike was allowed and certain army had access to spammable 9 pt plasmaguns. It's more or less manageable with good deployments and ample terrain coverage because only so many units can fit into any given firing lanes.


Again, you're wrong according to the data that has been gathered. Come back with an argument that isn't "But I like it and have unsubstantiated opinions that I think everyone should listen to".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/09 21:26:57



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 skchsan wrote:
I personally enjoy greatly the 1st turn tension that arises from smart deployments in IGOUGO, where the player going first is given no room for "obvious" moves, which is partially the reason why I believe beta strike is stronger than alpha strikes.


As Lance said, literally all tournament data so far strongly contradicts this claim. The first player has a strong advantage (~60% win rate so far); partly because deploying defensively is not a practical option in a game where you need to get on the objectives ASAP.

If the scoring system changed, or the deployment system changed (eg go back to 'player who will be going first deploys first'), then beta strike might be a thing- but for all intents and purposes it's still an alpha strike, just a turn delayed.
   
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Can't get unbiased data when you're playing with NOVA/ITC terrains, where you play with 6 major terrain, of only two of which block LOS, and few scatters.
   
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 skchsan wrote:
Can't get unbiased data when you're playing with NOVA/ITC terrains, where you play with 6 major terrain, of only two of which block LOS, and few scatters.


Provide us with ANY data that isn't just what you think and feel. Support your argument with evidence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 22:31:52



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how would the activation thing work with transports ? would moving and disembarking count as a separate activiation from the one the unit has?

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Karol wrote:
how would the activation thing work with transports ? would moving and disembarking count as a separate activiation from the one the unit has?


It's been done differently in different peoples rule sets. The ones I preferred had something like this.

-First, an activation follows the phases as they are now.
-When you activate a transport you also activate the units inside.
-If the system works as it does now, then you have to decide before moving whether the unit/s will disembark now before it moves or stay inside
-If the system works where they can disembark after moving then the movement of the transport counts as the movement of the units inside, including if it advances then it counts as the units inside advancing. Disembark after.
-If the transport allows for units inside to shoot then they get to shoot when the transport shoots. If it doesn't then the unit inside can't shoot.
-If a unit ends it's movement within range of a transport it can choose to embark, it then finishes it's activation inside the transport (shooting if it can).
-If a unit embarked on a transport that has not activated yet then the transport can still be activated but the unit inside that has been activated cannot do anything (disembarking, shooting etc...).

It mostly works how you would logically think it would fairly work.

Having multiple units in a transport activate at the same time is the advantage of a transport. It's a 1 turn advantage to do a bigger then normal activation (assuming everything fits inside it) as part of a big disembarkation.


A drop pod or similar works the same. You have the transport unit in reserve. You choose to activate that unit. You deploy it and then disembark the units. All units go through the phases together. Then they are individual units from there on out.


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What if the drop pod has two 5 man units of devastators with MM or grav cannons, only one can shot right?

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Karol wrote:
What if the drop pod has two 5 man units of devastators with MM or grav cannons, only one can shot right?


No. A transport activates all the units inside of it as a single activation. If they all disembark then they all go through their phases.

In AA the advantage of bigger activations is more impact, the disadvantage is being out maneuvered by more activations and no longer being able to respond as well.

The drop pod is itself a big opening salvo. And then they sit there as a target and don't activate together any more.

And again, this is just the system I have preferred. Not all systems work this way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 00:29:35



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 Lance845 wrote:
In AA the advantage of bigger activations is more impact, the disadvantage is being out maneuvered by more activations and no longer being able to respond as well.


Quoted for emphasis, because I think this point often gets lost on people who haven't played AA systems.

Having fewer, larger, more elite units is situationally better and situationally worse in pure AA- it lets you get a lot more damage out up-front, which is conducive to alpha-strike tactics, but it also limits your ability to react to the enemy. As anyone who's played the new Aeronautica Imperialis knows, having more units in the activation order can be a significant advantage.

But there are always alternative interpretations. In the Bolt Action system, for example, you have a token in the activation pool for each unit you have on the field, and activation is done by randomly drawing from the activation pool (a bag of tokens). Thus, if you outnumber the enemy 2:1, you will draw tokens twice as often. In Dust Warfare, which alternates by phase, the player with fewer units is more likely to win the initiative, which gives their units both the opportunity to go first and to react to the enemy after they've activated. There's also the system used in GW's own LotR system, where players alternate by phase. It's a subtle difference from 40K, but it makes a huge impact- if Player 1 moves into a position to do a lot of damage, Player 2 has the opportunity to move out of the way before Player 1 can fire. There are lots of options. Alternative Activation is not a single implementation, it's just a framework or concept.

With regards to transports, you can easily put limitations on them; eg have both the transport and its occupants activate separately, but say that if a transport activates before the units in it, then they remain embarked and cannot activate this turn. That replicates the current 40K functionality of needing to get out before you move. Alternatively, you could have it be the reverse, where a unit in a transport can only activate after the transport has activated; that gets you a more aggressive system where units disembark after movement.

Rest assured, whatever rules obstacle you think there is to AA, there's a game that's addressed it- just as there is with IGOUGO, which can similarly be modified (eg through a robust reaction system a la Infinity or Starship Troopers) to address some of the common reasons games use AA instead.
   
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 Lance845 wrote:

P.S. I'm not saying AA is a bad system. It's just a different system with it's own pros and cons. Not all wargames need to be AA in order for it to function.


Again, agreed. But 40k suffers for it being IGOUGO. Other games that are IGOUGO don't. But 40k does. Cure the disease.


What 40k suffers due to isn't caused by just IGOUGO.

The main problem with 40k is that pretty much everything the developers have done increase the amount of damage that the first player can do to the second player, while giving the second player very little if anything to do about it during the game.

Reactions, alternating activations, etc. (even Apoc's "don't resolve wounds until the end of the turn") are all options to address that. But the disease is still the increasing advantage of attacking first.
   
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Actions and reactions as with Infinity, and a turn structure similar to Battletech would be nice.
   
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 solkan wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:

P.S. I'm not saying AA is a bad system. It's just a different system with it's own pros and cons. Not all wargames need to be AA in order for it to function.


Again, agreed. But 40k suffers for it being IGOUGO. Other games that are IGOUGO don't. But 40k does. Cure the disease.


What 40k suffers due to isn't caused by just IGOUGO.

The main problem with 40k is that pretty much everything the developers have done increase the amount of damage that the first player can do to the second player, while giving the second player very little if anything to do about it during the game.

Reactions, alternating activations, etc. (even Apoc's "don't resolve wounds until the end of the turn") are all options to address that. But the disease is still the increasing advantage of attacking first.


I disagree. The level of lethality in the game CAN be a feature. Right now it's only such a problem because you attack with your entire army all at once. If you removed that aspect of the game the lethality just doesn't matter any more. Root cause analysis man.

But lets say we want to cure the disease of mass lethality and keep IGOUGO. Okay, now you need to dig into either more core mechanics of the game and change them and/or every single codex and change all the wargear. In addition, now that the game isn't as lethal you STILL have the massive amounts of downtime while you wait for the player to roll all their dice except now they are rolling all their dice to less effect so it's mostly a even more boring version of the downtime we have now. That amount of work for that pay off is more worth it to you then just getting rid of the whole idea of alpha strikes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 12:47:19



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Okey, but it would still be a problem for armies that are build around either combos or always doing specific things with 2-3 units every turn of the game, or the army stops working.

It maybe spreads the negative expiriance a bit, but it doesn't realy matter if my opponent goes first and drops just my tide changer characters, or drops them and 1/3 of my army, because without the abililty to weave the PA update isn't impactful enough to make the army fun to play.

GW would have to rewrite every codex and the core rules to do it, and considering they do everything 2-3 years in advance and require units to sell to promote any serious rules changes we are talking here about an AA system in maybe 11th edition.

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It did not take GW that long to write Epic Armaggedon, a perfectly successful viable system, still played without updates or model releases over ten years later.

Nor did it take even close to that long to design and release their most recent version of apocalypse, even with all of its needless additional gimmics.

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Karol wrote:
Okey, but it would still be a problem for armies that are build around either combos or always doing specific things with 2-3 units every turn of the game, or the army stops working.

It maybe spreads the negative expiriance a bit, but it doesn't realy matter if my opponent goes first and drops just my tide changer characters, or drops them and 1/3 of my army, because without the abililty to weave the PA update isn't impactful enough to make the army fun to play.

GW would have to rewrite every codex and the core rules to do it, and considering they do everything 2-3 years in advance and require units to sell to promote any serious rules changes we are talking here about an AA system in maybe 11th edition.


This is just plain false.

First, every successful version of AA for 40k I have played has had some kind of expansion of heroic intervention that allowed you the option to activate multiple units under specific circumstances (types of units/proximity). It's generally something like 1 unit + 1 character unit within 3" + 1 unit capable of protecting a unit within 3" of the unit they are capable of protecting.

Necron warriors, a cryptek, and lychguard.
Tau firewarriors, a cadre fireblade, drones.

It's limiting but functional and keeps auras and gak working the way they should.

I have played like 6 versions of AA that have required no rewrites of any units.

If your combo involves more than that then I don't think it's healthy for the game anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 12:39:36



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This is just plain false.

Okey to make my army work, which is GK. And to cover for its lower numbers and lower number of less effective special and heavy weapons, we need to have strong psychic phase. this is often a lot more then 1-2 psychic powers on top of PA psychic powers that are required to make the army mechanics work at all. If someone can just break up my psychic power activiation, after I do something with a unit and a character, then whole army stops working. On top of it all psychic powers aren't like guns or melee, they are on specific units, can't be cast twice, aside for baby smite. And because of the elite structure of my army, I can't have units double or triple on the psychic power to be sure that one of them does get the power off. But that is not all, the army defining PA psychic powers can only be used by characters, and unlike other factions my don't have jump packs or bikes to always get in range no matter what.

The whole book and the whole supplement would have to be rewriten from ground up to make my army fit in a system where someone could just break up a psychic phase. But that is not all, there are other armies on the spectrum, like tau for example. they don't have psykers at all. So against them in the psychic sub phase, armies that do have psykers would get activiation, after activiation. melee armies vs shoty armies. One unit moves, does nothing because it is melee, gets shot, then another one moves same happens it gets shot again. The effect would be the same as it is, and again would require rewriting of books and how the core of some armies works.

If your combo involves more than that then I don't think it's healthy for the game anyway.

I am not the person who wrote codex GK or the PA supplement the way it is right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 13:04:53


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Karol wrote:
This is just plain false.

Okey to make my army work, which is GK. And to cover for its lower numbers and lower number of less effective special and heavy weapons, we need to have strong psychic phase. this is often a lot more then 1-2 psychic powers on top of PA psychic powers that are required to make the army mechanics work at all. If someone can just break up my psychic power activiation, after I do something with a unit and a character, then whole army stops working. On top of it all psychic powers aren't like guns or melee, they are on specific units, can't be cast twice, aside for baby smite. And because of the elite structure of my army, I can't have units double or triple on the psychic power to be sure that one of them does get the power off. But that is not all, the army defining PA psychic powers can only be used by characters, and unlike other factions my don't have jump packs or bikes to always get in range no matter what.

The whole book and the whole supplement would have to be rewriten from ground up to make my army fit in a system where someone could just break up a psychic phase. But that is not all, there are other armies on the spectrum, like tau for example. they don't have psykers at all. So against them in the psychic sub phase, armies that do have psykers would get activiation, after activiation. melee armies vs shoty armies. One unit moves, does nothing because it is melee, gets shot, then another one moves same happens it gets shot again. The effect would be the same as it is, and again would require rewriting of books and how the core of some armies works.

If your combo involves more than that then I don't think it's healthy for the game anyway.

I am not the person who wrote codex GK or the PA supplement the way it is right now.


Again, you are wrong.

I am going to start with the tau vs melee thing you are doing.

Right now in IGOUGO if say... Blood Angles go first versus Tau then the whole BA army moves forward and then the whole tau army shoots them. This assumes a planet bowling ball with no terrain and that BA have no ability to get into melee range turn 1 and that they cannot shoot.

In AA, the BA drive a tank forward, or only move forward enough that the tau would also have to move forward to shoot. You see, the advantage of a tank now is that it takes more than one unit to kill it. So if you have a tanky transport full of dudes ready to jump out and go nuts then you move a tank and they shoot it. Then you move some other units and now they have to choose between trying to focus up on that tank or going after another unit. Maybe your second unit is another tank! it provides either cover for your other softer units or it gets away scott free to deliver it's payload. Or move forward into cover so that the tau unit that responds has to fire into terrain. Or as the Tau break formation to take up better positions they leave openings in their line where deepstrikers can start to arrive. No matter what scenario you propose between tau and melee it at the very least breaks even in AA if not improves with good tactical decision making and some baiting tactics. It, in no scenario, becomes worse.


Now onto Grey Knights.

-So your chaplains are characters. They get to activate with a unit. their litanies just work. Most of them effect a single unit anyway and the ones that don't effect an aura that other units can move into. The litanies last until that units next activation. So activate a chaplain early on turn 1 and late in turn 2 to maximize the time that litany is running unless it's more tactical to change it to adapt to current events. See? Tactical decision making? Great!

-Psychic locus does the same. You activate the character with a unit to both keep the character protected and keep his ability with a unit. Future activation can move into range to double the range of their smites.

-Gate of infinity. A deepstrike!

-You also have stratgems that allow you to deepstrike units. Grandmasters with teleports, and other shenanigans. Reserves also allows you to activate the 3 unit thing. Pick a unit, a character, and someone to protect and drop them at once for one big in your face blob.

-Use your first few activations to bide some time and/or get them to activate some of their more threatening guns and then deep strike in your stuff onto their doorstep.

-Finally, yes, Grey Knights suck. They have always sucked. But they don't suck any worse in AA. Like the tau vs BA scenario they at the very worst break even and at the best gain new avenues to pull some tactical shenanigans against opponents.


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@Karol
the Warpath and FireFight rules from Mantic are free at the moment and if you are interesting in how such things might work they are both worth a read as they use Unit Activations and additional rules that are also present in 40k
https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/books-warpath/warpath-rulebook-digital/

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 kodos wrote:
@Karol
the Warpath and FireFight rules from Mantic are free at the moment and if you are interesting in how such things might work they are both worth a read as they use Unit Activations and additional rules that are also present in 40k
https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/books-warpath/warpath-rulebook-digital/


thank you , I will read them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Right now in IGOUGO if say... Blood Angles go first versus Tau then the whole BA army moves forward and then the whole tau army shoots them. This assumes a planet bowling ball with no terrain and that BA have no ability to get into melee range turn 1 and that they cannot shoot.

that is a bad example, because BA aren't just melee. They have a shoting almost or just as good as any other marine army.

But If you build something like demon army or a WE list then single unit activitation gives huge edge to shoting armies, because they can engage the same unit the same way they can do it now, with breaks unlike now, but no counter play from the melee army player. And that is assuming the table is perfect.

-So your chaplains are characters. They get to activate with a unit. their litanies just work. Most of them effect a single unit anyway and the ones that don't effect an aura that other units can move into. The litanies last until that units next activation. So activate a chaplain early on turn 1 and late in turn 2 to maximize the time that litany is running unless it's more tactical to change it to adapt to current events. See? Tactical decision making? Great!

But litanies are used in a different subphase, then psychic powers.So I don't see how it helps, specialy as some of the psychic power combinations require 2 or 3 characters. There is no tactical decision making if the psychic powers are more or less pre build in when and on which unit they are cast every turn.

-You also have stratgems that allow you to deepstrike units. Grandmasters with teleports, and other shenanigans. Reserves also allows you to activate the 3 unit thing. Pick a unit, a character, and someone to protect and drop them at once for one big in your face blob.

I don't need stratagems to deep strike stuff in a GK army and I don't think the GM NDK is a good option to keep in reservs, specialy as he only has one psychic power and not having him on the board means you have 1 less character to use the psychic powers from PA. Am not claiming to be a genius GK player, but in general not using the PA rules is rather bad idea in 9th, just like it was a bad idea to not use them in 8th.

-Use your first few activations to bide some time and/or get them to activate some of their more threatening guns and then deep strike in your stuff onto their doorstep.

But deep strike without pods would require for units to come in single. And even if it was some sort of a formation of unit+character, armies are already build to kill of primaris, so a single unit of termintors or strikes landing on the table would just die off. Plus it would be before the psychic phase happened, and if units go through their full activation in one go, then failing a psychic power, specialy one of those important PA ones would just mean the army reverts to its pre PA working, and let me tell you something about pre PA GK, they did not work.


-Finally, yes, Grey Knights suck. They have always sucked. But they don't suck any worse in AA. Like the tau vs BA scenario they at the very worst break even and at the best gain new avenues to pull some tactical shenanigans against opponents.

From what I was told they were a very fun and good army to play a few editions ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 14:29:18


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If you want me to answer a specific example of how you are stacking psychic powers with grey knights then give a specific example of how you are stacking psychic powers.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Sadly, the devs have already said they like IGOYGO too much to change it anytime soon. But the sliver of hope will always remain.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 10:32:13


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 Vector Strike wrote:
Sadly, the devs have already said they like IGOYGO too much to change it anytime soon. But the sliver of hope will always remain.


For official materials sure, but never let that prevent anyone from taking it upon themselves to improve them for their gaming group. Taking what's there and fiddling with it is the first step to becoming a games developer in the future

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What's a good solution for guard orders in alternating activations?

They normally happen at the beginning of the shooting phase so you have had the opportunity to move both the firing unit and the officer. With alternating activation you end up moving one and having it's shooting before the other.
   
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 Chamberlain wrote:
What's a good solution for guard orders in alternating activations?

They normally happen at the beginning of the shooting phase so you have had the opportunity to move both the firing unit and the officer. With alternating activation you end up moving one and having it's shooting before the other.


Not necessarily, again depending on the specific version of how the actions alternate. For example, you could have a generic "heroic activation" where activating a character allows you to activate one or more units near it as well, so you could have both. Another option would be to treat the orders like psychic powers, it's a buff that's waiting there until it's relevant: one activation for the officer to shout at the unit to shoot better, then later on when the unit activates it gets to shoot better when its time comes. Or you could have a system where you activate detachments of a few units at a time to begin with and its simply up to the player to not screw up their timing.

In the Boltgun Action version I use at home, you get a random number of activations at a time and make a "normal" 40k turn with that many units. Say you get 3 actions with guard, you could activate an officer and two units that would all move first before shouting orders and shooting. Alternatively, the officer could shout at units that are yet to be activated later on and they'd get their bonuses when they'd be relevant. This isn't really a problem (well, Move Move Move is utterly silly but that has nothing to do with the activation structure and all with the order itself being bonkers).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 17:00:54


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Alternating activation would provide the opportunity for command abilities like Guard orders to be actually related to command and control. Like, activate an officer and he gets to immediately activate two friendly Infantry Squads. This would help Guard compensate for having a very high number of units in an AA system by reducing the number of activations they need to all act, and seems more appropriate than yelling at a unit to make them shoot faster.

But if you wanted to keep the current buff mechanic, it could be that the Order buff is applied when the officer activates, and removed at the end of the turn. This would encourage you to activate your officers first and issue orders, then have the troops carry out the orders during the turn. In contrast to the above approach, this would make Guard a tactically 'slow' army, having to choose between acting immediately without buffs or delaying to get their buffs in place, then only activating one (small) unit at a time.

You could even mix the two, making Officers key to the army's flexibility- giving you the choice to activate lots of units quickly and press the offensive, or issue buffs in preparation for a counter-attack.

There are lots of ways to handle mechanics that currently rely on the IGOUGO system. Different implementations will have different effects, which can be specifically chosen to create outcomes that are not possible in IGOUGO.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 17:10:13


 
   
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Those are some good ideas.

I wonder if it would make sense to allow the guard player to issue all their orders at the beginning of the turn before any unit activates on either side. Might be the simplest way to keep the current rules for a mostly 40k but with AA house rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 18:20:29


 
   
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 Chamberlain wrote:
Those are some good ideas.

I wonder if it would make sense to allow the guard player to issue all their orders at the beginning of the turn before any unit activates on either side. Might be the simplest way to keep the current rules for a mostly 40k but with AA house rules.


I wouldn't prefer to go that route, because it removes one of the main draws of AA: the ability to time your actions so as to deny your opponent theirs. If the opponent doesn't want their officers' ability to lead taken away by snipers shooting them in the head before they get to act, they better get moving and use them first. It's a nice way to bring C&C naturally into the game like Catbarf suggested above, because to get your guard wave operating you have to spend time and activations in ordering them around unlike more elite armies, where you can just throw your teleporting terminators into the enemy and they'll pretty much do what they do on that one action.

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Austria

 Chamberlain wrote:
Those are some good ideas.
I wonder if it would make sense to allow the guard player to issue all their orders at the beginning of the turn before any unit activates on either side. Might be the simplest way to keep the current rules for a mostly 40k but with AA house rules.


looking at Warpath and the easiest way is still that you need to activate an Officer/Command model to issue an order
may it be to activate 2 other units to fire at the same target or that all units in his platoon move at the same time or to add buffs to a unit for their next activation

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 Fluid_Fox wrote:
Actions and reactions as with Infinity, and a turn structure similar to Battletech would be nice.

I second the battletech style. For those unfamiliar with it it works by stacking activations.

So if I have 9 units and you have 6 and I win initiative then the order would look like this:
Me 2, You 1. Me 2, you 1. Me 2, you 1. Me 1, you 1. Me 1, you1. Me 1, you 1. (2/1)(2/1)(2/1)(1/1)(1/1)(1/1)

If you won initiative it would swap to:

You 1, me 2. You 1, me 2. You 1, me 2. Then 1/1, 1/1, 1/1 for the rest of the turn. (1/2)(1/2)(1/2)(1/1)(1/1)(1/1)
   
 
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