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Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

BrianDavion wrote:
even if an army is as good as anothers unit at doing X... I'm not sure why this is a problem

Yet again space marine sniper scouts and eldar rangers both occupied the same niche for ages, yet... NO ONE SEEMED TO MIND.

this "OHH MY GOD! ONLY MY ARMY CAN DO X! AND IF SOMEONE ELSE'S ARMY DOES X IT'S HORRIABLE" additude that people seem to be pushing lately is, in a word, CHILDISH

Because it's not that simple

Specialist factions eg Tau Drukari give up things the avility to do things to be as good as they are at their specialist field.

If IF where WS 6+ and couldnt take psychers then them outshooting tau point for point might be balanced.
Is White scars were faster and more deadly than drukari but easier to kill point for point they might be more balanced.

The problem is it's all upsides with zero downsides.
What units can whitescars not take for being the super fast faction?
What units or skills to Imperial Fists give up for outshooting Tau?

Drukari give up armour and Toughness and Psychers
Tau give up Melee and psychic and some durability to be better shooters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

So what do Marine's give up then?
Currently their rules seem to be all buffs with no drawbacks.

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

Actually that would be correct, but the generalist nature OF marines in 40k atm is also attached with double the W of nearly any other faction and abilities that are not priced correctly from just beeing marines to just beeing marines of a specific branch...
Sadly now GW hasn't priced anything correctly so in your exemple the class has overtaken the damage dealer AND get's to heal itself.

Wants to have the cake and eat it all alone too.

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

Actually that would be correct, but the generalist nature OF marines in 40k atm is also attached with double the W of nearly any other faction and abilities that are not priced correctly from just beeing marines to just beeing marines of a specific branch...
Sadly now GW hasn't priced anything correctly so in your exemple the class has overtaken the damage dealer AND get's to heal itself.

Wants to have the cake and eat it all alone too.

And that has nothing to do with design space or generalist Vs specialist. It's about general balance, and I'm not disagreeing there. Having 2W marines fight 1W chaos marines felt very odd, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

So what do Marine's give up then?
Currently their rules seem to be all buffs with no drawbacks.

They don't have to give up anything as a faction, as you will either run a melee list or a ranged list or a mix of both. Melee builds for eh marines and tyranids should be on par , to make a fair matchup.neither side should have an advantage.
Not saying this is the case right now,just what the goal should be.

nekooni wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

Actually that would be correct, but the generalist nature OF marines in 40k atm is also attached with double the W of nearly any other faction and abilities that are not priced correctly from just beeing marines to just beeing marines of a specific branch...
Sadly now GW hasn't priced anything correctly so in your exemple the class has overtaken the damage dealer AND get's to heal itself.

Wants to have the cake and eat it all alone too.

And that has nothing to do with design space or generalist Vs specialist. It's about general balance, and I'm not disagreeing there. Having 2W marines fight 1W chaos marines felt very odd, too.

The other issue IS, however, and that has to do with design space and how factions are built from the ground up in 40k, that the constant cannibalisation and flandersiation has lead to marines going from THE generalist to THE bloated mess of datasheets with any and all options + 1 because.

Tau, Dark eldar and Necrons all share the NO psy aspect deduced out of the lore.
WE , SoS and GK all share the active anti psyker talent to achieve something against psykers specifically but ALL of them sacrifice for the gained space of design, now look at the hounds of morkai which as allready elaborated gaks on the SW lore itself AND on any of the later following factions rules which would be stronger deducable out of the respective lore, in a faction that does not have ANY drawbacks unlike f.e. WE who magically lose access to half the HQ, any psy, and 3 elite choices..
There is nothing to compensate the encroachment of designspace deducted out of the lore other factions have with for this unit.

PenitentJake wrote:

Ninth is a strong enough platform, that I really hope there is no tenth.. EVER. It's the only way we will ever get parity with the Imperium.

Boy are you going to be disappointed in about 3 years....

ccs wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:

Ninth is a strong enough platform, that I really hope there is no tenth.. EVER. It's the only way we will ever get parity with the Imperium.

Boy are you going to be disappointed in about 3 years....

why shouldn't there be a 10th edition indeed. Planned obsolesence and rules sales are probably quite a high margin type of sales for GW and it upsets the balance facilitating more sales through frustration and archetypes getting playable that weren't before.

BrianDavion wrote:
even if an army is as good as anothers unit at doing X... I'm not sure why this is a problem

Yet again space marine sniper scouts and eldar rangers both occupied the same niche for ages, yet... NO ONE SEEMED TO MIND.

this "OHH MY GOD! ONLY MY ARMY CAN DO X! AND IF SOMEONE ELSE'S ARMY DOES X IT'S HORRIABLE" additude that people seem to be pushing lately is, in a word, CHILDISH

But if the Space Marines scouts ALSO got 3 other sniping powers that Eldar Scouts got, people would have complained.

If the Hounds want to have -1 to psychic tests, that would be similar to what you're talking about. But they also get an additional -1 at a closer range, plus they get + 1 str and + 1w, plus they get to snipe, plus they have 2 wounds.

It's not that they can hunt psychics that's the problem. It's that they do it better than an army whose only purpose is hunting psychics.

Pretending that the relative equality between SM scouts and Eldar Rangers is the same as the lack of equality between the Hounds and the SoS is childish from my perspective. The hounds are clearly leagues above and beyond SoS- they are not even remotely equal.

Hounds will stack with the Relic of Gathalamor for -2/-3 and autoexploding psykers...

Paint your armor in a funny pattern and be better at suppressing psykers than the dreaded Shadow in the Warp...

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

Actually that would be correct, but the generalist nature OF marines in 40k atm is also attached with double the W of nearly any other faction and abilities that are not priced correctly from just beeing marines to just beeing marines of a specific branch...
Sadly now GW hasn't priced anything correctly so in your exemple the class has overtaken the damage dealer AND get's to heal itself.

Wants to have the cake and eat it all alone too.

And that has nothing to do with design space or generalist Vs specialist. It's about general balance, and I'm not disagreeing there. Having 2W marines fight 1W chaos marines felt very odd, too.

The other issue IS, however, and that has to do with design space and how factions are built from the ground up in 40k, that the constant cannibalisation and flandersiation has lead to marines going from THE generalist to THE bloated mess of datasheets with any and all options + 1 because.

Tau, Dark eldar and Necrons all share the NO psy aspect deduced out of the lore.
WE , SoS and GK all share the active anti psyker talent to achieve something against psykers specifically but ALL of them sacrifice for the gained space of design, now look at the hounds of morkai which as allready elaborated gaks on the SW lore itself AND on any of the later following factions rules which would be stronger deducable out of the respective lore, in a faction that does not have ANY drawbacks unlike f.e. WE who magically lose access to half the HQ, any psy, and 3 elite choices..
There is nothing to compensate the encroachment of designspace deducted out of the lore other factions have with for this unit.

Then your issue is with that specific unit. I'm not familiar with it,I've only seen the datasheet but I didn't see point values and to be fair I also haven't checked if the PL is reasonable. But generally speaking I'd expect that the compensation for that ability is that the unit is more expensive than regular reivers.

Having a hard aoe counter for psykers in your army isn't a good thing,to be honest,but having this level of antipsyker on any other army, eg sisters,would be just as bad for psyker armies. So it's a balance issue (in my opinion) with that specific unit, doesn't matter what faction it belongs to

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
My position,


Did SWs need, deserve, or warrant a new unit. No probably not. Do I think that new unit is kind of cool and neat fluff wise,,, I do,,, do I think its a bit ridiculous they do what the SOS but better... absolutely.
I like units that do fluffy things on the table and I think the sub factions have nice twists aesthetically and on the table. Saying that, I think the primaris range has heavily detracted from that and vanilified them greatly.

Just food for thought?
Why do you need another unit, that costs more then the same unit because a shity upgrade sprue is in there, when the actually lore accurate thing to be done would've been to allow SW sargents f.e. to buy for pts protecting talismans?
Because as it stands, NO other SW unit can even fullfill the whole runic fetish talisman aspect of the lore, the accumulation of the rules just gaks on any other supposed anti psy focussed faction, and SW players are expected to pay more for the same unit that allready didn't sell because the unit is designed for a gametype that so doesn't exist in the meta of 40k?

Wouldn't that have been a better solution, one that wouldn't also cannibalise and flanderise at the same time faction identities?

My post agreed with you. I even specifically say we didn't need the kit...
And characters can totally take the relic "wolf tail talisman" .. also ruin priests also fullfil that part of the lore (or did previously) ...
But again, yes, your right, the faction doesn't NEED it (as I clearly stated in my post) .
I would disagree that it is "fanderising" but that's fine we can disagree on that part.

Lets stop accusing me of advocating for things I am not. I am trying to be politer and clearer with my posts now so we stop misconstruing everything I write and accusing me of hating every faction just because I don't want to see one of the factions I am invested in vanilified.

All I am doing is thinking it is cool to have unit that does something fluffy on the table... again, did we need that unit ? No. Do I think time could/should have been put somewhere else ? Yes. Do I think other armies deserve a unit with those abilities more? Yes. Do I think that it is ridiculous for SWs to get every ability the Talons of the Emperror have but simply better ? Yes.

So please. Stop pretending my enthusiasm about fluffy rules automatically means "screw all the other factions." Its not binary. I am allowed to like one aspect of what's going on and disagree with everything else.
"The Marinening" is a problem, is happening, and I agree with almost every part of your opinions.

Personally, I don't think the claims that the hounds are better psyker-suppressors than SoS have any merit at all.

They just aren't. I'm sorry. Actually look at SoS prosecutors and Hounds, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT YOU GET TEN PROSECUTORS FOR FIVE HOUNDS, and it's pretty dang obvious the prosecutors will be more effective at their job.

Hounds don't have a 1cp strat to nullify a psychic power on a 3+.

Hounds don't have a stacking -1 with 18" range to psychic powers, and their debuff doesn't effect DTWs

Hounds do get a 4++ and can only be targeted if the closest, true - SoS get total, absolute immunity. Which means, any spell that requires the psyker to target the closest unit - which a ton of them do - you can totally nullify by putting a unit of SoS nearby.

Hounds get +1S +1D vs psykers, but their only ranged weaponry is a pistol and they have no way to guarantee the charge out of the box. Prosecutors get reroll to wounds on their boltguns.

5 hounds vs T4 3+ psyker - 2.77 unsaved wounds.
10 Prosecutors vs T4 3+ psyker - 3.33 unsaved wounds

not in range? Target have a little more health? 1Cp to make your Prosecutors boltguns Assault 3 18" range.

If your opponent does bring psykers, a nullmaiden rhino+2 prosecutors squads is a great way to shut them down. If your opponent doesn't bring psykers, those three squads will perform the role of objective holders/action doers for your super-elite custodes army fantastically.

p.s. the wolf tail talismans in past editions used to be a common equipment upgrade... they nerfed that to make more room for other anti-psyker armies... which was the right call IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally, I don't think the claims that the hounds are better psyker-suppressors than SoS have any merit at all.

They just aren't. I'm sorry. Actually look at SoS prosecutors and Hounds, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT YOU GET TEN PROSECUTORS FOR FIVE HOUNDS, and it's pretty dang obvious the prosecutors will be more effective at their job.

Hounds don't have a 1cp strat to nullify a psychic power on a 3+.

Hounds don't have a stacking -1 with 18" range to psychic powers, and their debuff doesn't effect DTWs

Hounds do get a 4++ and can only be targeted if the closest, true - SoS get total, absolute immunity. Which means, any spell that requires the psyker to target the closest unit - which a ton of them do - you can totally nullify by putting a unit of SoS nearby.

Hounds get +1S +1D vs psykers, but their only ranged weaponry is a pistol and they have no way to guarantee the charge out of the box. Prosecutors get reroll to wounds on their boltguns.

5 hounds vs T4 3+ psyker - 2.77 unsaved wounds.
10 Prosecutors vs T4 3+ psyker - 3.33 unsaved wounds

not in range? Target have a little more health? 1Cp to make your Prosecutors boltguns Assault 3 18" range.

If your opponent does bring psykers, a nullmaiden rhino+2 prosecutors squads is a great way to shut them down. If your opponent doesn't bring psykers, those three squads will perform the role of objective holders/action doers for your super-elite custodes army fantastically.

I think that is a fair assessment. I am over exaggerating about them being 100% better at the role... but I think we can both agree that the abilities seem a bit stacked for this unit to have.

nekooni wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Ya, I don't a problem if a melee chapter that sacrifices it's ranged firepower is equal to eh a melee hive fleet.

You don't need a "generalist tax", that will only lead to marines never being allowed to be competitive. It's what fethed over hybrid classes in MMOs for years ("you are not allowed to do as much damage as other damage dealer classes because lyour class also has the ability to heal,theoretically").

Actually that would be correct, but the generalist nature OF marines in 40k atm is also attached with double the W of nearly any other faction and abilities that are not priced correctly from just beeing marines to just beeing marines of a specific branch...
Sadly now GW hasn't priced anything correctly so in your exemple the class has overtaken the damage dealer AND get's to heal itself.

Wants to have the cake and eat it all alone too.

And that has nothing to do with design space or generalist Vs specialist. It's about general balance, and I'm not disagreeing there. Having 2W marines fight 1W chaos marines felt very odd, too.

The other issue IS, however, and that has to do with design space and how factions are built from the ground up in 40k, that the constant cannibalisation and flandersiation has lead to marines going from THE generalist to THE bloated mess of datasheets with any and all options + 1 because.

Tau, Dark eldar and Necrons all share the NO psy aspect deduced out of the lore.
WE , SoS and GK all share the active anti psyker talent to achieve something against psykers specifically but ALL of them sacrifice for the gained space of design, now look at the hounds of morkai which as allready elaborated gaks on the SW lore itself AND on any of the later following factions rules which would be stronger deducable out of the respective lore, in a faction that does not have ANY drawbacks unlike f.e. WE who magically lose access to half the HQ, any psy, and 3 elite choices..
There is nothing to compensate the encroachment of designspace deducted out of the lore other factions have with for this unit.

Then your issue is with that specific unit. I'm not familiar with it,I've only seen the datasheet but I didn't see point values and to be fair I also haven't checked if the PL is reasonable. But generally speaking I'd expect that the compensation for that ability is that the unit is more expensive than regular reivers.

Having a hard aoe counter for psykers in your army isn't a good thing,to be honest,but having this level of antipsyker on any other army, eg sisters,would be just as bad for psyker armies. So it's a balance issue (in my opinion) with that specific unit, doesn't matter what faction it belongs to

It's not "just" hounds...
Eradicators are another exemple, that spits in any other melta units face atm. Even for factions that SHOULD be better at it then SM, like SoB which give up a whole slew of weapons options for the ammount of melta specialisation they have...
Additionally: They have as a core ability if the focus fire without advancing that they double up shots... something CSM have as a stratagem for 1 unit for 2 CP. Making a joke of ANY kind of obliterator bomb buildable.. (not even going into the price comparison there..)
Now take the heavy intercessor, isn't durability the kind of schtick plague marines should've had?

The balance issue of the whole baseline packet and btw PL is 5 so the same price as three eradicators! can be about expectated so 120 pts.. is frankly, ridicoulus no matter how you look at it.

as a general concept though - marines do absolutely take up design space. Not by necessarily doing x or y or z thing and 'stealing' it from another army usually, but mostly just by the plain simple process of:

-GW makes up new idea
-GW expands new idea to every loyalist marine faction in an attempt to make sure no marine player feels hard done by
-by the time they get done, they basically have no time to expand it to every other faction in the game before the edition ends.

As I said in the other thread: GW came up with the idea of upgrading your characters into a more powerful version in order to introduce variety through the marine Chapter Master, and for whatever reason, only 3 other factions ever received that kind of a system but they had time to redesign the rule for loyalist marines 3 times and expand it to every single generic marine character type.

Characters that can be upgraded to higher-ranking character types: Captain, librarian, chaplain, company champ, apothecary, techmarine, warboss, weirdboy, greater daemon, troupe master.

Nobody else. it was more important to make sure you could upgrade your apothecary, than to come up with an idea for a higher-ranked Eldar Farseer, or to port over the abilities to chaos space marines, or to make rules for a generic necron Phaeron who isn't a named character, or whatever.

Same thing with the idea of "religious leader who has pseudo-psychic power prayers" - GW invented this concept with Dark Apostles, gave chaos 10 prayers, and then made like 40 prayers for space marine chaplains. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEvery chapter gets at least one unique prayer ability, unless they get a full 6. Do we get this ability translated to anyone within the ecclesiarchy? Harlequins? Chaos Daemons? Anyone else? Nope, gotta come up with the Dark Angels Specific prayers to the emperor and what THOSE prayers do!

Again, same with the concept of "a unique ability that your army gets if you take no allies" which has existed for over a year. Who's got that? Well, so far we've gotten to every loyalist marine army, sisters of battle, and necrons! That's it. It's been over a year. We didn't have time to give it to everyone else - say, you're still having fun, right? even though you're playing against an opponent who gets extra AP on a bunch of their guns and you get nothing to compensate for that? The game still feels fair, marines haven't been scraping up against 70% winrates in competitive at all, have they?

There are so many marines, and they all require all their own special-snowflake gak and they can't share anything, that GW just doesn't have the time in their release schedule to carry concepts that seemingly everyone is supposed to get past the huge bloated marine range.

And honestly, the way they've chosen to do this, "Consolidating" the snowflake marines into the main marine dex didn't fix anything. We're still not getting anything but fething marines for all of 2020, they still take up the same amount of space in the release schedule. We have to slog through fething whatever sixteen marine supplements before anyone else - and for some reason they're super fething urgent that they just HAVE to come out first despite GW having released the index rules free so nobody's special unique units are playing with W1 (LIKE ALL OF CHAOS MARINES WILL BE UNTIL 20 fething 21, ALL OF THEM) so everyone just gets to sit and wait with their thumbs up their butts and their troop units 30-40% overpriced thanks to CA2020 wondering whether they'll actually get stuff to bring them to parity with marines or if, like with necrons, they see a codex with less than half the time or effort put into it despite having waited for it 4 times longer.

 Type40 wrote:
p.s. the wolf tail talismans in past editions used to be a common equipment upgrade... they nerfed that to make more room for other anti-psyker armies... which was the right call IMO.

Aside: I'm not sure 'Anti-Something' armies should really exist.

I know some people disagree with this, but I honestly wish SWs went in the direction of GK... I play SWs for the unique stuff. I would have much preferred no pramaris in the faction at all and instead have them diverge more significantly.

It's not like I have bought any of the new releases other then the codex and supplement... there is just way to much and I don't find the vanilla stuff exciting...

the_scotsman wrote:
as a general concept though - marines do absolutely take up design space. Not by necessarily doing x or y or z thing and 'stealing' it from another army usually, but mostly just by the plain simple process of:

-GW makes up new idea
-GW expands new idea to every loyalist marine faction in an attempt to make sure no marine player feels hard done by
-by the time they get done, they basically have no time to expand it to every other faction in the game before the edition ends.



And honestly, the way they've chosen to do this, "Consolidating" the snowflake marines into the main marine dex didn't fix anything. We're still not getting anything but fething marines for all of 2020, they still take up the same amount of space in the release schedule. We have to slog through fething whatever sixteen marine supplements before anyone else - and for some reason they're super fething urgent that they just HAVE to come out first despite GW having released the index rules free so nobody's special unique units are playing with W1 (LIKE ALL OF CHAOS MARINES WILL BE UNTIL 20 fething 21, ALL OF THEM) so everyone just gets to sit and wait with their thumbs up their butts and their troop units 30-40% overpriced thanks to CA2020 wondering whether they'll actually get stuff to bring them to parity with marines or if, like with necrons, they see a codex with less than half the time or effort put into it despite having waited for it 4 times longer.

sadly exalts are still limited to 1....

 vipoid wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
p.s. the wolf tail talismans in past editions used to be a common equipment upgrade... they nerfed that to make more room for other anti-psyker armies... which was the right call IMO.

Aside: I'm not sure 'Anti-Something' armies should really exist.

I can understand that sentiment.

There is definitely something to be said about how games are boring when you show up and the game is already won or lost based on list or army choice.

atm we have a 60% winrate for first turns competitvely and that made a ruckus but a GW paid meta expert said it is fine and dandy...

40k has massive issues, balance wise, beyond just factions that are getting overbloated..

Not Online!!! wrote:
atm we have a 60% winrate for first turs competitvely and that made a ruckus but a GW paid meta expert said it is fine and dandy...

40k has massive issues, balance wise, beyond just factions that are getting overbloated..

This was the article that made me spit out my coffee XD.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/01/the-top-9-space-marine-killers/

especially the last entry "more marines."
I was like,,,, "they have to be trolling right"

 Type40 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
p.s. the wolf tail talismans in past editions used to be a common equipment upgrade... they nerfed that to make more room for other anti-psyker armies... which was the right call IMO.

Aside: I'm not sure 'Anti-Something' armies should really exist.

I can understand that sentiment.

There is definitely something to be said about how games are boring when you show up and the game is already won or lost based on list or army choice.

And there's also something to be said for being "anti" a thing that basically nobody plays. I've gotten to play my deathwatch army against xenos exactly 1 time.

Do you know what unique stratagems deathwatch had access to vs an army that wasn't a xeno? let me tell you, it was

1cp - deep strike a thing
1cp - shoot a bolt weapon, deal d3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage. So wait, just the normal strat regular marines got on heavy bolters, but for any bolt weapon? Yes, yes indeed.
2cp - +1 to wound.

.....and then literally that last one 4 more times, but for different Battlefield Roles.

 Type40 wrote:
This was the article that made me spit out my coffee XD.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/01/the-top-9-space-marine-killers/

especially the last entry "more marines."
I was like,,,, "they have to be trolling right"

it's fething GW, of course they put that there along a slew of other not to well selling options that clearly don't work , like the helldrake...
harsh truth, it is about the only competent option in there with the mass ap-1 doctrine spam going on in the average SM list that they are indeed one of the competenter ways to remove another marine...
Further, selling more marines means even better economy of scale and even easier to sell these, as you put it, vanilia reivers, because all you need is add in an extra sprue and bam , hounds of morkai...

Not Online!!! wrote:

It's not "just" hounds...
Eradicators are another exemple, that spits in any other melta units face atm. Even for factions that SHOULD be better at it then SM, like SoB which give up a whole slew of weapons options for the ammount of melta specialisation they have..

Fully agree, but Eradicators would be fine if they weren't sitting at 40ppm but higher. They're just the primaris version of Dev Squads with MMs, and those have been around for a bit. The issue is that they're way more efficient ,points wise.
Their core ability is just to have two shots when focussing,that doesn't invalidate olbiterators.

Now take the heavy intercessor, isn't durability the kind of schtick plague marines should've had?

Sure, but it's done in a different way with completely different weapon loadouts - once DG get 2W (already mentioned that it feels wrong to have them sit at 1W right now) they'll tear them apart in CC. And DG has the fnp on everything, their uniqueness still exists.

The balance issue of the whole baseline packet and btw PL is 5 so the same price as three eradicators! can be about expectated so 120 pts.. is frankly, ridicoulus no matter how you look at it.

Reivers are 18ppm +2 for grappling hooks, so the upgrade to be better vs psykers is 2ppm, assuming they're really 120 pts, and it seems like you lose access to grav chutes.

I mean 10 points really isn't much, granted, but it's still a niche unit restricted to a single chapter

They also lose all their spookening right? like the razzledazzle grenades and the scary skull mask rule doesnt seem to be there.

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally, I don't think the claims that the hounds are better psyker-suppressors than SoS have any merit at all.

They just aren't. I'm sorry. Actually look at SoS prosecutors and Hounds, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT YOU GET TEN PROSECUTORS FOR FIVE HOUNDS, and it's pretty dang obvious the prosecutors will be more effective at their job.

Hounds don't have a 1cp strat to nullify a psychic power on a 3+.

Hounds don't have a stacking -1 with 18" range to psychic powers, and their debuff doesn't effect DTWs

Hounds do get a 4++ and can only be targeted if the closest, true - SoS get total, absolute immunity. Which means, any spell that requires the psyker to target the closest unit - which a ton of them do - you can totally nullify by putting a unit of SoS nearby.

Hounds get +1S +1D vs psykers, but their only ranged weaponry is a pistol and they have no way to guarantee the charge out of the box. Prosecutors get reroll to wounds on their boltguns.

5 hounds vs T4 3+ psyker - 2.77 unsaved wounds.
10 Prosecutors vs T4 3+ psyker - 3.33 unsaved wounds

not in range? Target have a little more health? 1Cp to make your Prosecutors boltguns Assault 3 18" range.

If your opponent does bring psykers, a nullmaiden rhino+2 prosecutors squads is a great way to shut them down. If your opponent doesn't bring psykers, those three squads will perform the role of objective holders/action doers for your super-elite custodes army fantastically.

Except have GW finally changed the rules to allow you to do that in a custodes detachment without it breaking it being mono custodes and you gaining the +1 invulnerable save etc?

If not your sruck with tacking them in 3 or more squads and veing down the 3CP.
Not to mention at 3PL vrs 5PL you dont get 10 for 5 either

the_scotsman wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
p.s. the wolf tail talismans in past editions used to be a common equipment upgrade... they nerfed that to make more room for other anti-psyker armies... which was the right call IMO.

Aside: I'm not sure 'Anti-Something' armies should really exist.

I can understand that sentiment.

There is definitely something to be said about how games are boring when you show up and the game is already won or lost based on list or army choice.

And there's also something to be said for being "anti" a thing that basically nobody plays. I've gotten to play my deathwatch army against xenos exactly 1 time.

Do you know what unique stratagems deathwatch had access to vs an army that wasn't a xeno? let me tell you, it was

1cp - deep strike a thing
1cp - shoot a bolt weapon, deal d3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage. So wait, just the normal strat regular marines got on heavy bolters, but for any bolt weapon? Yes, yes indeed.
2cp - +1 to wound.

.....and then literally that last one 4 more times, but for different Battlefield Roles.

My playgroup is pretty good for this. we are about 15 - 20 people and only two people play marines. Myself as my second army (primary being harlies/CWE) and even then, I don't play a single pramris model so the army seems still super strong but it could be worse. And another player who plays Primaris White scars... So it is nice that most of the time there are quite a variety of armies on the table across from us and Tau, necrons, Aldari and nids arn't an uncommon sight... Usually when the white scars player is playing though people encourage my FB SWs as his matchup, so that's a bit boring. We arn't a narrative playgroup, but we are definitely casual and invest in our armies in a way less about stats and more about what we think is cool from a fluff or aesthetic standpoint.

The point is, those play groups are out there ... I am in one... but i have also been to tournaments and then its just marines all day. I brought CWE to my last 2v2 tournament with a CSM player... we came in second last,,, it wasn't even close.

the_scotsman wrote:
They also lose all their spookening right? like the razzledazzle grenades and the scary skull mask rule doesnt seem to be there.

True,completely missed that for some reason.

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally, I don't think the claims that the hounds are better psyker-suppressors than SoS have any merit at all.

They just aren't. I'm sorry. Actually look at SoS prosecutors and Hounds, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT YOU GET TEN PROSECUTORS FOR FIVE HOUNDS, and it's pretty dang obvious the prosecutors will be more effective at their job.

Hounds don't have a 1cp strat to nullify a psychic power on a 3+.

Hounds don't have a stacking -1 with 18" range to psychic powers, and their debuff doesn't effect DTWs

Hounds do get a 4++ and can only be targeted if the closest, true - SoS get total, absolute immunity. Which means, any spell that requires the psyker to target the closest unit - which a ton of them do - you can totally nullify by putting a unit of SoS nearby.

Hounds get +1S +1D vs psykers, but their only ranged weaponry is a pistol and they have no way to guarantee the charge out of the box. Prosecutors get reroll to wounds on their boltguns.

5 hounds vs T4 3+ psyker - 2.77 unsaved wounds.
10 Prosecutors vs T4 3+ psyker - 3.33 unsaved wounds

not in range? Target have a little more health? 1Cp to make your Prosecutors boltguns Assault 3 18" range.

If your opponent does bring psykers, a nullmaiden rhino+2 prosecutors squads is a great way to shut them down. If your opponent doesn't bring psykers, those three squads will perform the role of objective holders/action doers for your super-elite custodes army fantastically.

Except have GW finally changed the rules to allow you to do that in a custodes detachment without it breaking it being mono custodes and you gaining the +1 invulnerable save etc?

If not your sruck with tacking them in 3 or more squads and veing down the 3CP.
Not to mention at 3PL vrs 5PL you dont get 10 for 5 either

Isnt this exactly what the "Talons of the Emperor" rule does? Allows Sisters of Silence to be fielded in a custodes detachment without gaining benefits but without taking away benefits? I don't actually own the PA book its in but I've heard that's what they got along with their strats and stuff.

Canadian 5th wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
That's not true, Canadian, only because if they don't need the sword and heavy armor, then the person employing the troops is using them wrong.

If you have a sword and heavy armor, and you're paying for it, perhaps you should use it.

Yes, my Devastators should move up the field and take penalties to hit rather than staying in place and shooting at threats because if they do they might get to use their swords on something... Brilliant why haven't I thought of that before!

EDIT: This also only applies to the current meta where Marine units aren't paying fair points for what they do. If you increase their points costs to where they pay a 'fair' rate for what they can do they won't be able to pull that off.

Devastators don't have swords?

If you mean combat stats, then I would be very happy with cheap and powerful devastators if getting into melee with them was reliable. Did you know that 5 devastators kill 3-4 Daemonettes in melee, and 10 daemonettes kill one and a half Devastators in melee? For a shooting-only unit, those guys sure are scrappy. Make them WS4+, 1 attack with no Shock Assault or chainsword/ccw on the sergeant, and then we can make them cheaper. But they aren't generalists anymore.