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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Grimskul wrote:
Ummmmmm, okay. You could at least concede the point then, just because a channel has a high subscriber count doesn't mean anything since a fair bit of those could be bots, or they could just be doing a lot of clickbait or have a very braindead demographic. That's like saying Logan Paul's opinion matters because he has followers.

Appeal to authority (especially via some random youruber) is not the basis to ignore all the points someone has made simply because you disagree with them.


I am not conceding anything and i am not appealing to authority. That’s me saying, “you know. I don’t think I am coming across as well as I might. There’s some lovely videos you can watch and a whole community to discuss your ideas with.” So that’s an apology and me being polite as I could manage. I don’t give a gak frankly whether some random text on a screen disagrees with how I wanted Fallout 4 to go. But I don’t have any interest in trying to explain myself further. I’ve said all that can be said and the poster has dismissed any contrary point. You know, like the Minutemen are probably good guys because that’s how Bethesda depicts them. Stuff like that. That’s not debating or discussing nuance. It’s wasting my time.

Maxson is an evil fascist who wants to purge “abominations” which includes people who are your friends. It’s not even up for debate here. Those are monstrous actions. A developer would not beat you over the head with this unless they wanted to very loudly let you know he’s a fascist and that you should disapprove. Putting him in the ground is a good thing. Whereas the Minutemen are a group of settlers trying to eke out a living in tough circumstances. To say these are morally equivalent factions is absurd. To say that Fallout is a nihilist game where your choices don’t change anything is ridiculous and requires you to ignore huge sections of the games.



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Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Except, of course, most (99%+) of ghouls and supermutants are crazed murderers and cannibals with little to no capacity for rational thought. Protecting innocents from them isn't unreasonable, nor is it 'fascism' to protect people from killers in a post-apocalyptic wasteland. No amount of emotional appeal makes this a debate- there are mutated creatures out to kill people, and reason doesn't work. IF the game was set up so you could cure supermutant and ferals, that'd be a different story, but that isn't even vaguely considered an option. You can't even talk to them.

I also didn't claim they were morally equivalent to the Minutemen- the latter at least try to protect people without withholding helpful technology and knowledge... but only because they don't have any. They're let down by their limitations, and their history is mostly one of failure.

I do view the Brotherhood as hypocritical scumbags- its just that Maxim is pretty typical for the Brotherhood, and most of the people in the Brotherhood are perfectly in line with his way of thinking. He is not pushing any sort of political agenda- He just wants to eliminate threats, take tech and go home.

As for the nihilism, that's still pretty set on the fact that choices you do make are not changing anything for the better. Something every fallout game reiterates. And _especially_ FO4. The most common end state is you personally nuke part of Boston and kill a whole whack of people and destroy a lot of technology and knowledge. Everybody moves on and nothing significant is resolved beyond that.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
Ummmmmm, okay. You could at least concede the point then, just because a channel has a high subscriber count doesn't mean anything since a fair bit of those could be bots, or they could just be doing a lot of clickbait or have a very braindead demographic. That's like saying Logan Paul's opinion matters because he has followers.

Appeal to authority (especially via some random youruber) is not the basis to ignore all the points someone has made simply because you disagree with them.


I am not conceding anything and i am not appealing to authority. That’s me saying, “you know. I don’t think I am coming across as well as I might. There’s some lovely videos you can watch and a whole community to discuss your ideas with.” So that’s an apology and me being polite as I could manage. I don’t give a gak frankly whether some random text on a screen disagrees with how I wanted Fallout 4 to go. But I don’t have any interest in trying to explain myself further. I’ve said all that can be said and the poster has dismissed any contrary point. You know, like the Minutemen are probably good guys because that’s how Bethesda depicts them. Stuff like that. That’s not debating or discussing nuance. It’s wasting my time.

Maxson is an evil fascist who wants to purge “abominations” which includes people who are your friends. It’s not even up for debate here. Those are monstrous actions. A developer would not beat you over the head with this unless they wanted to very loudly let you know he’s a fascist and that you should disapprove. Putting him in the ground is a good thing. Whereas the Minutemen are a group of settlers trying to eke out a living in tough circumstances. To say these are morally equivalent factions is absurd. To say that Fallout is a nihilist game where your choices don’t change anything is ridiculous and requires you to ignore huge sections of the games.



Well you certainly didn't phrase it that way, given how you saw Voss' well articulated points and handwaved them away to being addressed by a youtuber you didn't have the courtesy of linking in the thread due to being too "busy" painting SoB. Hard to take your "apology" as such when you're clearly not sorry at all. You keep bringing up wasting time but you're the person who even made this thread, if you didn't want a discussion (besides having everyone agreeing with you) then what was the point? Hell, you even took the time to reply back to my post from 4 days ago, so I would argue that you DO give a gak, contrary to what you say.

Moreover, I think saying Maxon is a fascist is a bit reaching. He's certainly authoritarian within the context of the Brotherhood, which already follows a rather rigid military hiearchy, but with regards to other factions he's not that aggressive outside of proven threats like super-mutants and synths. Super mutants outside of a few outliers like the Nightkin and the ones led by Marcus are overwhelmingly aggressive and established threats to humanity, this is partly reflected on how you pretty much have to murder all Super Mutants you come across that aren't your companions, unlike non-feral ghouls and humans. Synths in particular are a very real threat as shown by the Institute, not only can they convincingly replace existing people but the Broken Mask Incident shows the potential for murder sprees of optimized androids and paranoia that undermines the very social fabric of society.

Similarly, the Minutemen are never depicted as "the good guys", like Voss said, they're just a loose collective of communities that fight in the common interest of protection of one another. If they were truly "good" then they wouldn't have fallen apart in the first place, since most of them just chose to abandon one another once it became too difficult or incovenient for them to decide who to follow or to send help to protect the other communities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 06:34:50


 
   
 
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