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2020/12/14 18:21:17
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Don't you guys also find it weird that goonhammer, table top titans, and GW themselves on stream have all referred to the possibility of null deploying DPs in 9th but for what ever reason your interpretation of this syntax doesn't seem to mesh with theirs ?
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 18:22:46
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
No, I'm saying it indirectly restricts the number of units you can put into reinforcements. Other things that indirectly restrict the number of units you can put into reinforcements include the points limit of the game, detachment restrictions, and the number of drop pod miniatures that exist in the world.
2020/12/14 18:27:04
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
1.both clearly restrict the number of units you can have in reserve.
2. Drop Pods ignore all limits on the number of units you can have in reserve.
3. Therefore Drop Pods ignore both rules.
1. The rule saying how many points you can have in your army restricts the number of units you can have in reserve.
2. Drop Pods ignore all limits on the number of units you can have in reserve.
3. Therefore I can take 40,000 points of Drop Pods in a 2k points limit game as long as they start in reserve.
You can't have it both ways, so which one is it?
again , you are ignoring the clear difference in syntax between the mustering armies rule and the reinforcement rules in Matched play and GT 2020.
One refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the other refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One rule directly talks about a limitation on the army and the other sets a limitation on the number of units that can constitute as "all of your reinforcement units"
not to mention their is no restriction at list creation so not allowing more then 50% of DPs in a list to be reinforcements breaks the game because DPs "MUST" be put there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nate668 wrote: No, I'm saying it indirectly restricts the number of units you can put into reinforcements. Other things that indirectly restrict the number of units you can put into reinforcements include the points limit of the game, detachment restrictions, and the number of drop pod miniatures that exist in the world.
Except its not indirect, it directly states "all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" are limited to not having a combined point cost over half of your army.
How much more direct can it be then literally stating of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units. this is a direct limitation on how many units I am allowed to have. This is absolutely not a simple statement about how many points I am allowed to spend, or how many points I am allowed to use on something. This is a specific statement describing criteria for determining the amount of units that make up "all of my reinforcement units."
Automatically Appended Next Post: The statement literally parses to "all your reinforcement units must have a total combined point cost of less then one half"
How can you possibly be more direct then this ? This is directly limiting how many units you may have in reinforcements. People are ignoring a really important part of the syntax here.
It is literally describing how to determine the amount of units you may have whilst directly referring to the units themselves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 18:37:30
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 18:45:01
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: How can you possibly be more direct then this ?
You could more directly restrict the number of units by restricting the number of units instead of the point cost of units. The first part of the rule does so. The part you keep quoting over and over does not.
2020/12/14 18:53:57
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: Don't you guys also find it weird that goonhammer, table top titans, and GW themselves on stream have all referred to the possibility of null deploying DPs in 9th but for what ever reason your interpretation of this syntax doesn't seem to mesh with theirs ?
GW, getting rules wrong? That's unpossible!
Like I said, you COULD Null Deploy in 9th, using the 8th edition codex. The 9th edition codex closed that loophole.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 18:54:42
2020/12/14 19:01:07
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: How can you possibly be more direct then this ?
You could more directly restrict the number of units by restricting the number of units instead of the point cost of units. The first part of the rule does so. The part you keep quoting over and over does not.
Except it does XD ? lol ?
what did you expect them to write otherwise ?
"the max number of units you can put into reinforcements is limited to having a combined total point cost of half your armies total cost" is literally synonymous with "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units must be less than half of your army’s total points value.
You are ignoring the part I keep quoting... the only way for this to be an indirect limitation is if the number of units (i.e. "all your reinforcement units) wasn't directly being restricted. However, it is being directly restricted you can't just igonre that part of the text.
Type40 wrote: Don't you guys also find it weird that goonhammer, table top titans, and GW themselves on stream have all referred to the possibility of null deploying DPs in 9th but for what ever reason your interpretation of this syntax doesn't seem to mesh with theirs ?
GW, getting rules wrong? That's unpossible!
Like I said, you COULD Null Deploy in 9th, using the 8th edition codex. The 9th edition codex closed that loophole.
Sure,
There is a clear way to read the RAW where it means you can null deploy BUT its GW, Goonhammer, tons of online beta testers, reviewers, and TOs around the world who are reading the RAW wrong and not you. UNPOSSIBLE.
p.s. it was said by them in the stream when they were presenting the new codex not when talking about the old one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 19:04:19
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 19:04:53
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
1.both clearly restrict the number of units you can have in reserve.
2. Drop Pods ignore all limits on the number of units you can have in reserve.
3. Therefore Drop Pods ignore both rules.
As BCB pointed out, that would mean that Drop Pods would also ignore points restrictions on the number of points allowed for drop pods, meaning he can put 40,000 points of drop pods in a game. (Since it states all restrictions, it would also remove the restrictions of the number of units you would be limited to as they are going into reserve, so BCB could field that 40,000 point Drop Pod Army without worrying about having more drop pods than other units allowing him to take drop pods.)
2020/12/14 19:08:57
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
1.both clearly restrict the number of units you can have in reserve.
2. Drop Pods ignore all limits on the number of units you can have in reserve.
3. Therefore Drop Pods ignore both rules.
As BCB pointed out, that would mean that Drop Pods would also ignore points restrictions on the number of points allowed for drop pods, meaning he can put 40,000 points of drop pods in a game. (Since it states all restrictions, it would also remove the restrictions of the number of units you would be limited to as they are going into reserve, so BCB could field that 40,000 point Drop Pod Army without worrying about having more drop pods than other units allowing him to take drop pods.)
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 19:12:05
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 19:10:22
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: How can you possibly be more direct then this ?
You could more directly restrict the number of units by restricting the number of units instead of the point cost of units. The first part of the rule does so. The part you keep quoting over and over does not.
Except it does XD ? lol ?
Ok, so to be clear here, you're saying that this statement:
the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
restricts the number of units instead of the point cost of units.
2020/12/14 19:14:16
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun
BCBs statement, is in my opinion correct. The two statements restricting reinforcements are not dependent on each other but are separately enforceable parameters.
The first, is that you can have no more than half your army, in units, in reserve. And separately that you can have no more than half of your points in reserve. Neither have exclusivity over the other. Its perfectly possible that you can half your units in reserve and not make 50% points cost, in the same way you can make 50% points cost and not be half of your army in units.
The drop pod rule is permission to exceed the "half your units rule" but does not give permission to exceed the 50% points cost rule
Cheers
Andrew
I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!
Best definition of the word Battleship?
Mr Nobody wrote:
Does a canoe with a machine gun count?
2020/12/14 19:15:43
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Ok, so to be clear here, you're saying that this statement:
the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
restricts the number of units instead of the point cost of units.
No, we're saying it restricts both.
You saying the restriction on points has nothing to do with the number of units?
2020/12/14 19:17:53
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
kirotheavenger wrote: You saying the restriction on points has nothing to do with the number of units?
Because it doesn't. A unit can be anything from 30 to 3000 points (or even less/more). The number of points is totally unrelated to the number of units those points represent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 19:18:16
2020/12/14 19:19:49
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
@ Type40 You can twist the meaning of the text all you want, as language is inherently ambiguous, and still claim it's RAW. That doesn't mean the said RAW analysis is correct.
Your arguments are currently falling under "what I think the rules say", "what I think the rule means", "how the rules should be parsed," etc, and not "what the rules say". The wording of the rules are clear enough to draw a deductive conclusion without relying on any inductive reasoning.
If you need to involve semantics circus to make your argument, 99.99% of the time it's not a good argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 19:20:24
2020/12/14 19:23:51
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Ok, so to be clear here, you're saying that this statement:
the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
restricts the number of units instead of the point cost of units.
No, we're saying it restricts both.
You saying the restriction on points has nothing to do with the number of units?
Scroll back up and read the thread
2020/12/14 19:26:08
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Ok, so to be clear here, you're saying that this statement:
the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
restricts the number of units instead of the point cost of units.
No, we're saying it restricts both.
You saying the restriction on points has nothing to do with the number of units?
No. The points for a unit vary widely depending on the number of models in a unit (unless it's restricted, like for characters or , say, those units that have 3 members). If you're trying to jack up the number of units by including minimum sized units rather than maximum sized units, you end up with many more units in the army for the same point cost (to the limit of the number of units of that size allowed by the detachment).
2020/12/14 19:27:17
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: How can you possibly be more direct then this ?
You could more directly restrict the number of units by restricting the number of units instead of the point cost of units. The first part of the rule does so. The part you keep quoting over and over does not.
Except it does XD ? lol ?
Ok, so to be clear here, you're saying that this statement:
the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere.
restricts the number of units instead of the point cost of units.
No the statement describes a max number of units based on the point costs of those units.
I am saying that the combined points value of all my reinforcement units must be less then half of my armies total points value.
So I am saying that all my reinforcement units must have a combined point value which is less the half my armies total point value.
So what does that mean about my reinforcement units ? All of them (i.e. some number of them) are limited to a number based on their combined point cost.
The fact that this statement is specifically putting a limitation on "all my reinforcement units" which determines a max number of them and not specifically putting a limitation on simply the points I may use.
In order for this statement to ONLY be a statement referring to a limitation of points and not a limitation on units based on their total number of points it would have to read something like
"The point spent for reinforcements must equal less then half your army" The direct statement and limitation here is on points.
By stating the combined point costs of all reinforcement units makes this a direct statement about all the reinforcement units who happen to have a limitation on them.
The extra syntax here is important because it makes this a direct limitation on how many units may be used for reinforcements and not just some indirect by product. The reinforcement units and how their numbers are restricted are directly refereed to ni the statement that can't be ignored.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 19:30:20
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
2020/12/14 19:31:25
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
skchsan wrote: @ Type40 You can twist the meaning of the text all you want, as language is inherently ambiguous, and still claim it's RAW. That doesn't mean the said RAW analysis is correct.
Your arguments are currently falling under "what I think the rules say", "what I think the rule means", "how the rules should be parsed," etc, and not "what the rules say". The wording of the rules are clear enough to draw a deductive conclusion without relying on any inductive reasoning.
If you need to involve semantics circus to make your argument, 99.99% of the time it's not a good argument.
This isnt some semantic circus, this is a direct statement in the rules.
It literally says "the combined point cost of all reinforcement units."
I am not making that up. I am not dancing around semantics. It clearly states a limitation on the all your reinforcement units... you know all of them, up to the max number of them... this isn't some confusing garblygook its just what it says.
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
ummm,
The subject of a sentence includes its nouns and qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 20:04:27
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 19:40:02
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
yikes.
2020/12/14 19:44:00
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Type40 wrote: The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
yikes.
seriously XD lol. You are giving me the "yikes" ...
and come back to me XD. LOL come on guys,,,, this isn't what this conversation should have devolved to.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 19:46:37
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points. The two are not the same.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
ummm,
The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
It's a qualifier to the subject, but the subject is still the points value. What the subject is not is the number of units, which is the restriction that was lifted by the drop pod rule. It makes no mention of the point value.
2020/12/14 19:46:46
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
I didn't quote what you said because it's factually incorrect, I quoted it because it's ridiculous that you think that somehow refutes the point doctortom was making. It does not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 19:47:13
2020/12/14 19:49:09
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points. The two are not the same.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
ummm,
The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
It's a qualifier to the subject, but the subject is still the points value. What the subject is not is the number of units, which is the restriction that was lifted by the drop pod rule. It makes no mention of the point value.
By definition, the subject of this sentence is "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" I am sorry you disagree with that, please watch the yourtube video I sent you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nate668 wrote: I didn't quote what you said because it's factually incorrect, I quoted it because it's ridiculous that you think that somehow refutes the point doctortom was making. It does not.
Doctortom attempting to disprove the point by making inaccurate assumptions about grammar and falsely claiming that "all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" is not a part of the subject of the sentence is 100% refuted by pointing out that basic grammar doesn't work that way... are you kidding me XD ?
He told me I was wrong because the subject of the sentence didn't include something and instead included a part of the predicate.... then I pointed out that he was 100% wrong about that... ya, no his point isn't even close to being correct... XD what kind of argumentation is this now ?
I am done, if you guys are going to try redefine how to determine a subject and predicate of sentence [i.e. something learned in grade school] and then tell me that pointing out that thats not how grammar works doesn't refute a point claiming inaccurately what is the subject of the sentence... then I don't even know why I am bothering XD lol... good luck guys, I highly recommend the youtube video I sent to you.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 20:12:32
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 20:09:52
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points. The two are not the same.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
ummm,
The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
It's a qualifier to the subject, but the subject is still the points value. What the subject is not is the number of units, which is the restriction that was lifted by the drop pod rule. It makes no mention of the point value.
By definition, the subject of this sentence is "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" I am sorry you disagree with that, please watch the yourtube video I sent you.
The combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units is not the number of units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement. The two are separate things. There is only a relaxation of the limit on one of those things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 20:10:50
2020/12/14 20:20:09
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
Does everyone ignore the difference in syntax between these two rules ? is this actually everyone's response XD !
the reinforcement rules in GT 2020 and matched play refers to "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units"
and the mustering armies rule refers to
"The points limit of each player’s army"
One clearly describes a limitation on all of a players reinforcement units (i.e. describes how to determine how many you can have) and the other directly describes a limitation to how many points a player may use in your army as a whole with no references to units what so ever.
There are two limitations for reserves. One is the number of units. The second is the number of points. The two are not the same.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units (including those embarked within TRANSPORT models that are Strategic Reserve and/or Reinforcement units) must be less than half of your army’s total points value, even if every unit in your army has an ability that would allow them to be set up elsewhere."
I underlined the subjects in the sentence. The subject is the points value, not the units.
ummm,
The subject of a sentence includes its qualifiers in total.
underlined is the subject, in italics you will see the predicate.
"the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement unitsmust be less than half of your army’s total points value."
You can't just underline the parts you want to keep in, ignore the rest and try try to claim something like "oh let me underline the "subject" of the sentence."
You don't get to just make up rules to grammar XD lol.
It's a qualifier to the subject, but the subject is still the points value. What the subject is not is the number of units, which is the restriction that was lifted by the drop pod rule. It makes no mention of the point value.
By definition, the subject of this sentence is "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" I am sorry you disagree with that, please watch the yourtube video I sent you.
The combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units is not the number of units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement. The two are separate things. There is only a relaxation of the limit on one of those things.
"all your strategic Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" is 100% the number of units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement... its literally ALL of them .... that's what it says...... Like,,,, what are you even trying to argue here ? The combined point value you of ALL of your reinforcement units refers to something about the combined point value of the number of units I am able to have as reinforcements . thats just what it says .
What do you mean "relaxation of the limit" ? the limitation is the limitation there is no reason to ignore part of what this limitation applies to,,, that doesn't make any sense ?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 20:26:55
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 20:36:28
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
"all your strategic Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" is 100% the number of units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement... its literally ALL of them .... that's what it says...... Like,,,, what are you even trying to argue here ? The combined point value you of ALL of your reinforcement units refers to something about the combined point value of the number of units I am able to have as reinforcements . thats just what it says .
What do you mean "relaxation of the limit" ? the limitation is the limitation there is no reason to ignore part of what this limitation applies to,,, that doesn't make any sense ?
"All of your strategic Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" are NOT 100% of your units for your army.
The point cost for your units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement are NOT 100% of your point cost for your army
You have the drop pod rule stating that you ignore the limitation on the number of reserve units for the drop pod unit, so that is no longer limited to a maximum of 50% of your army. That is the "relaxation of the limit" I was talking about.
The drop pd rule does NOT state that you ignore the limitation on the point costs. The number of points are still limited to a maximum of 50% of your army. There is NO statement about point costs getting to be ignored - there is no change to the statement about the limits to the point costs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/14 20:36:48
2020/12/14 20:55:46
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
"all your strategic Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" is 100% the number of units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement... its literally ALL of them .... that's what it says...... Like,,,, what are you even trying to argue here ? The combined point value you of ALL of your reinforcement units refers to something about the combined point value of the number of units I am able to have as reinforcements . thats just what it says .
What do you mean "relaxation of the limit" ? the limitation is the limitation there is no reason to ignore part of what this limitation applies to,,, that doesn't make any sense ?
"All of your strategic Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units" are NOT 100% of your units for your army.
The point cost for your units in Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement are NOT 100% of your point cost for your army
no, who said they were ?
You have the drop pod rule stating that you ignore the limitation on the number of reserve units for the drop pod unit, so that is no longer limited to a maximum of 50% of your army.
wrong, I have a rule that states
" neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army."
That is the "relaxation of the limit" I was talking about.
then you are wrong, there is no relaxation limit here, I believe this is because you are misinformed on the exact syntax and words used on the DP rule. If that isn't the case, you don't get to just decide some limitations are less applicable then others XD
The drop pd rule does NOT state that you ignore the limitation on the point costs. The number of points are still limited to a maximum of 50% of your army. There is NO statement about point costs getting to be ignored - there is no change to the statement about the limits to the point costs.
no it doesn't. You are correct in reading that the DP rule does not state you ignore the limitation on the point cost. However, there is no 50% limit on the points themselves. There is only a 50% limit on the total combined point cost of the the total number of reinforcement units I have.The reinforcement units themselves not some general 50% ban, that's not what it says. So the DPs say they ignores ALL limits on the maximum number of reinforcement units I can have in my army. and as I have repeatedly pointed out "the total combined points of ALL reinforcement units must be less than half of your army’s total points value " defines a limitation to the total ALL reinforcement units I have (i.e. limiting the total number I may include). This is how it is actually written. This has nothing to do with whether or not DPs ignore a rules about point costs and has everything to do with the fact the DPs ignore rules that set limitations on the max number of units you may put in reinforcements... i.e. a rule that states a certain combined point cost of all your reinforcement units is limits them.
I realize both you and others keep stating assumptions about what the rules say instead of actually quoting the exact syntax and words from the rules themselves....
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think if everyone just reads exactly what these rules say its quite clear ... it doesn't take any mental gymnastics, you just have to read what two rules actually are, word for word.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/14 21:14:44
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
2020/12/14 21:19:51
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
"wrong, I have a rule that states
" neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army."
The rules does not state anything about ignoring the limit on point costs, only on units. You can have have any number of units in reserves. You can't have any number of points in reserves.
2020/12/14 21:36:39
Subject: Can a first born space marine army start the game fully in drop pods?
doctortom wrote: "wrong, I have a rule that states
" neither it, nor any units embarked within it, are counted towards any limits that the mission you are playing places on the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army.""
The rules does not state anything about ignoring the limit on point costs, only on units. You can have have any number of units in reserves. You can't have any number of points in reserves.
please read my entire post. Again, you are right the drop pod rule doesn't say anything about the limit of point costs. no one is arguing with you on whether or not it does.
please stop with this circular argumentation, you can keep repeating this but it doesn't make it any more relevant to this conversation
ok, please read the following carefully.
The DP is allowed to ignore " the maximum number of Reinforcement units you can have in your army."
Now read the following "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units must be less than half of your army’s total points value"
This statement defines a limitation on the maximum units I can put into reinforcements DUE to the combined total point value. The DP rule specifically we says we can ignore limits that are placed on a maximum number of reinforcements.
The rule statement "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units must be less than half of your army’s total points value" gives a specific way of determining a limit on "all your reinforcement units"(i.e. our total allowed number of reinforcement units). Do you understand ?
the DP doesn't have to say it ignores anything about point costs what it says is that it ignores an limits put on the max number of reinforcement units,,, not how those limits are implemented (like 50% of combined point cost) just that any and therefor ALL rules that specifically limit on the number of units we can put into reinforcements is ignored... ok ,,,, so nothing to do with this circular argument about whether or not the drop pod mention points costs,,
, it doesn't have to to ignore the statement "the combined points value of all your Strategic Reserve and Reinforcement units must be less than half of your army’s total points value" as this is a specific limitation on all of you reinforcement units that limits how many you may have.
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
