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Tycho wrote:

No, you wouldn't.


Right now you have a situation with 2 factions screwed, and half a dozen with an handicap.
In that way you would have ~15 factions screwed, half a dozen with an handicap and around a dozen lucky ones. Seems much worse to me.


But what if ... and hear me out - this is gonna sound CARAAAAZZZZZY! BUT .... what if we made them where NO ONE WAS AUTO-SCREWED!?

You think the existence of a secondary that targets elite infantry is bad because it targets the essential make up of a faction and all of its subfactions, but you're totes fine with the other factions that are targeted in this way? That's cool because it's not marines and not a majority? You're starting to sound like Karol's opposite.

The fact is, not a single one of the kill secondaries really does what it's suppose to do, and all of the non-kill secondaries are probably not pointed correctly. Most of them are harder to do, actually carry an opportunity cost and deliver fewer points. To quote a great man "That does not make sense."



So you do agree with me that a secondary which targets elite infantry is bad and just makes the problem worse instead of fixing it?
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.


For thought (and not a gotcha type thing!), Necron Immortals and Deathmarks don’t meet that (T5, 1W, 3+ Sv), but Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard would (T5, 2W, 3+Sv)

All four are, for my money, a greater threat than Bog Standard Marines, due to role and equipment load outs.


I disagree, playing my Slaanesh Daemons. I'd dramatically rather prefer to fight Necron Immortals and Deathmarks in melee than bog standard marines. Conversely, less so against Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard. That also means that necron immortals and deathmarks are, on the main, easier to kill than your bog standard marine (even if they're harder to keep down).
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.

I believe that ITC's Gangbusters secondary was for any unit that contained multiple 3+ wound models, but I could definitely see that definition being changed to affect 2W models with 4+ or better armour saves. A bit too easy to leave the terminators, gravis, or Possessed at home.

Edit: Good point on Immortals and Death Marks Doc. Maybe it should be based on PPM?


ITC ganbuster is a bad basis for a discussion. It has always been the most troublesome secondary of the packet.

Unfortunately there is no way to define the elite models without leaving something out. You can't define them by the wounds, you can't define them by the armor save, you can't define them by thoughness. PPm is probably the only way to define it, but PPM changes based on gear, so you are opening another can of worms.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.

I believe that ITC's Gangbusters secondary was for any unit that contained multiple 3+ wound models, but I could definitely see that definition being changed to affect 2W models with 4+ or better armour saves. A bit too easy to leave the terminators, gravis, or Possessed at home.

Edit: Good point on Immortals and Death Marks Doc. Maybe it should be based on PPM?


ITC ganbuster is a bad basis for a discussion. It has always been the most troublesome secondary of the packet.

Unfortunately there is no way to define the elite models without leaving something out. You can't define them by the wounds, you can't define them by the armor save, you can't define them by thoughness. PPm is probably the only way to define it, but PPM changes based on gear, so you are opening another can of worms.


Why can't you? What's wrong with saying "multiwound models with a 4+ or better save"?

You even quoted my message without telling me why my definition is bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 15:23:52


 
   
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In response to Spoletta?

We can’t properly discuss a rule implementation without first defining what it is that’s going to be affected.

Would Necron Warriors (T4, W1, 4+So, pretty reliable resurrection) count? They’re a pain to shift, even without RP specific builds.

If not, why not. Again please note this is not me picking at people or specific opinions.

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Spoletta wrote:


If SM weren't competitive, no one would care at all about this topic.


Probably. But that's also why a secondary like this one would be good for the game's health.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:


So you do agree with me that a secondary which targets elite infantry is bad and just makes the problem worse instead of fixing it?


I still don't get why it would be bad. It's a tool to counter skew lists, and some of those skew lists can be impossible to deal with for some TAC armies. Hence an answer to balance things off would be good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 15:38:40


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
First question here? And I feel the most important?

What is the definition of Elite Infantry?

Multiwound models with a 4+ or better save, in my book.

I believe that ITC's Gangbusters secondary was for any unit that contained multiple 3+ wound models, but I could definitely see that definition being changed to affect 2W models with 4+ or better armour saves. A bit too easy to leave the terminators, gravis, or Possessed at home.

Edit: Good point on Immortals and Death Marks Doc. Maybe it should be based on PPM?


ITC ganbuster is a bad basis for a discussion. It has always been the most troublesome secondary of the packet.

Unfortunately there is no way to define the elite models without leaving something out. You can't define them by the wounds, you can't define them by the armor save, you can't define them by thoughness. PPm is probably the only way to define it, but PPM changes based on gear, so you are opening another can of worms.


Why can't you? What's wrong with saying "multiwound models with a 4+ or better save"?

You even quoted my message without telling me why my definition is bad.


Because for example a lot of elite infantries are 1W.
Immortals are one, but also pretty much all elite aspect warriors. Harlequins are clearly elite infantries but are 1W. Aberrants are clearly elite with 2W and high PPM, but have a 5+ save.
Is an elite infantry defined only by the defensive profile or by the whole package? For example, is a repentia an elite infantry for you? Each of them costs quite a bit of points afterall. What about a genestealer?
How would you consider a Witchseeker? A Tzaangor enlightened? A flamer of Tzeentch?

There are dozens of examples of elite infantries that don't fit in your definition, simply because with a vast range of models like the one of this game, the ways you can be elite are enormous.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
[

Why can't you? What's wrong with saying "multiwound models with a 4+ or better save"?

You even quoted my message without telling me why my definition is bad.

because for some armies you just described not an elite trooper, but a regular unit. And I really don't want my units to give up 15VPs for the "kill the marines" secondary and 15pts for AtW at the same time, with no way to counter.

But that's also why a secondary like this one would be good for the game's health.

how would making the game less fun for majority of the playfield count as good for the health of the game, not to mention that is screws over armies that already suffer from kill secondaries.

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I think you have to define Elite faction as a faction that (deep breath) uses mostly Elite Slot units.

Custodes
Astartes (All colors and types)
Necrons

Now that begs the question, is an Elite unit just a keyword or does it need a stricter definition. I think somebody said above and I agree. Multi-wound (EDIT) models, with a 2+ save. I would also add: has access to special strats and abilities not available to basic troops. Characters basically. Everything in the Custodes line could be a character in any other army. Take Wardens: 3W models, with a 2+4++6+++, and WS/BS 2+. Also a whole slew of special strats and abilities. Basically character strength.

I don't think it should be based off cost per model though....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 15:52:38


 
   
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If my termins ever get updated then a +2 dude with an inv save and 3W doesn't seem very far off from my troop option.

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See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 16:00:54


 
   
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Just a thought, but what if the kill secondaries moved away from killing specific unit types (vehicles/monsters, characters, psykers, etc.) to killing units based on battlefield role? For example, there could be a kill secondary for removing HQ models, Fast Attacks, Elites, Heavy Supports, Aircraft, Dedicated Transports, and Super Heavies. I'd definitely leave off troops, and obviously all of these would have to be in a single category. Then remove all the other kill secondaries. Something like that would punish lists who skewed heavily into one battlefield role, but a TAC list with a few of everything couldn't be maxed out against.

Or alternatively, just remove the kill secondaries altogether.
   
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So you do agree with me that a secondary which targets elite infantry is bad and just makes the problem worse instead of fixing it?


I'm not sure I am honestly. You are on record as saying they exist to "control skew". The problem is, they flat out don't. They absolutely do not, and the units they do target, are already struggling in 9th thanks to the new rules. The very things the kill secondaries are aimed at, were already sufficiently nerfed by the 9th ed rules themselves, or were never actually problems in the first place. They are solutions in search of problems.

So my preference is, honestly, to get rid of all of the kill secondaries. They are flat out trash and I think eliminating them is the cleanest solution with the least fallout. BUT, if that's not going to happen (and let's face it, it probably won't), then I'm all for a secondary that can be maxed against marines. That condition is significantly better for the health of the game than what we have now.

Making the faction that is already both the most numerous as well as one of the best also completely immune to an entire portion of the game? Nope. Not a fan.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.
   
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Kill secondaries are trash, but if you're going to have them, it makes absolutely zero sense not to have one that punishes skewing out on 3W+ models. I dunno why y'all are arguing over the definition in ITC (non-troops 3W+ multi-model units) that worked just fine.

Which, contrary to the one guy's objections, would impact quins too, as their bikes would be covered.

The fact that they ported over all the ITC secondaries except gangbusters is inexplicable from a balance point of view...well, until you remember that many of the new 9th edition releases are squads that would be covered by gangbusters if it existed.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 17:01:51


 
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
Kill secondaries are trash, but if you're going to have them, it makes absolutely zero sense not to have one that punishes skewing out on 3W+ models. I dunno why y'all are arguing over the definition in ITC (non-troops 3W+ multi-model units) that worked just fine.

Which, contrary to the one guy's objections, would impact quins too, as their bikes would be covered.

The fact that they ported over all the ITC secondaries except gangbusters is inexplicable from a balance point of view...well, until you remember that many of the new 9th edition releases are squads that would be covered by gangbusters if it existed.





I think people quantified "Infantry models" unless I am mistaken. That would mean most bikes, dreadnaughts, and stuff are exempted. I think that would balance it out nicely.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.


Banshees are elite aspect warriors, and are basically crappy versions of the hoplite skitarii. Swooping Hawks are elite aspect warriors, and functionally indistinguishable from MT (their only unique thing is their grenade pack which isn't very good). Fire Dragons are an elite aspect warrior, and their only difference from a melta command squad is 1 slightly better armor (and worse guns that don't get the melta rule) and model count.

Meanwhile, Dire Avengers are not nearly the level of devastators and Warp Spiders are not nearly the level of plasma inceptors.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 18:12:37


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.


Banshees are elite aspect warriors, and are basically crappy versions of the hoplite skitarii. Swooping Hawks are elite aspect warriors, and functionally indistinguishable from MT (their only unique thing is their grenade pack which isn't very good). Fire Dragons are an elite aspect warrior, and their only difference from a melta command squad is 1 slightly better armor (and worse guns that don't get the melta rule) and model count.

Meanwhile, Dire Avengers are not nearly the level of devastators and Warp Spiders are not nearly the level of plasma inceptors.


So you are saying that taking down a 30+ ppm model should be worth the same as taking down a 5 ppm model. So the assassination secondary is perfectly done for you I guess.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.


Banshees are elite aspect warriors, and are basically crappy versions of the hoplite skitarii. Swooping Hawks are elite aspect warriors, and functionally indistinguishable from MT (their only unique thing is their grenade pack which isn't very good). Fire Dragons are an elite aspect warrior, and their only difference from a melta command squad is 1 slightly better armor (and worse guns that don't get the melta rule) and model count.

Meanwhile, Dire Avengers are not nearly the level of devastators and Warp Spiders are not nearly the level of plasma inceptors.


So you are saying that taking down a 30+ ppm model should be worth the same as taking down a 5 ppm model. So the assassination secondary is perfectly done for you I guess.


No, I'm saying you're misdefining elite infantry. I never made a claim about 'worth'. Furthermore, I would never make such a claim, because GW's points costs are not accurate representations of a unit's effectiveness on the battlefield.

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Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.


Banshees are elite aspect warriors, and are basically crappy versions of the hoplite skitarii. Swooping Hawks are elite aspect warriors, and functionally indistinguishable from MT (their only unique thing is their grenade pack which isn't very good). Fire Dragons are an elite aspect warrior, and their only difference from a melta command squad is 1 slightly better armor (and worse guns that don't get the melta rule) and model count.

Meanwhile, Dire Avengers are not nearly the level of devastators and Warp Spiders are not nearly the level of plasma inceptors.


So you are saying that taking down a 30+ ppm model should be worth the same as taking down a 5 ppm model. So the assassination secondary is perfectly done for you I guess.


Pro tip, just, in general for the internet:

If you type the words "So You're Saying" at the beginning of every reply, the answer is "no."

Just saving you some time there for life in general, The answer to "So you're saying" is always always always no, because nobody says "So You're Saying" and then doesn't write something that isn't made of straw.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

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the_scotsman wrote:
...Pro tip, just, in general for the internet:

If you type the words "So You're Saying" at the beginning of every reply, the answer is "no."

Just saving you some time there for life in general, The answer to "So you're saying" is always always always no, because nobody says "So You're Saying" and then doesn't write something that isn't made of straw.


So you're saying there's absolutely no context in which using "so you're saying..." for rhetorical effect or to request clarification is appropriate?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 18:48:07


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Spoletta wrote:


Because for example a lot of elite infantries are 1W.
Immortals are one, but also pretty much all elite aspect warriors. Harlequins are clearly elite infantries but are 1W. Aberrants are clearly elite with 2W and high PPM, but have a 5+ save.
Is an elite infantry defined only by the defensive profile or by the whole package? For example, is a repentia an elite infantry for you? Each of them costs quite a bit of points afterall. What about a genestealer?
How would you consider a Witchseeker? A Tzaangor enlightened? A flamer of Tzeentch?

There are dozens of examples of elite infantries that don't fit in your definition, simply because with a vast range of models like the one of this game, the ways you can be elite are enormous.


This wouldn't be an issue at all. No one is asking for a secondary that hurts elites, we're asking a secondary that hurts infantry models with 3 or more wounds. Those harlequins, repentias, aberrants and even classic power armour marines wouldn't be affected at all.

Other units like meganobz would be affected but if someone brings just one or maybe two units of 3+ wounds models, along with cheaper dudes and vehicles, a secondary that hurts them is not that effective, therefore it wouldn't hurt the army.

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Karol wrote:
No thank you. I already have a secondary that gives up max points to my opponent just by virtue of killing my stuff. I really don't need another one. Unless if taking the secondary comes with some real sever handicaps to the person going for it.


I'm not sure what I think. Imperial Guard already faces yielding 2 for full secondaries for destruction, and at a rate of 4 points per vehicle no less because they double-dip Thin Their Ranks and Bring it Down. So like, other factions have it way worse than GK.
However, I agree that no faction should structurally give up 2 full secondaries just for existing, like IG does, particularly when factions like SM go around giving up none. [and FYI, anyone saying like "This is fair because SM give up Engage or something is a load of crap. They don't give it up any more than anyone else does, and they're abnormally good at scoring it for themselves to boot.]


I definitely think that if we're going to have kill secondaries:
No faction should structurally be able to yield 2 simultaneous in the same game
No faction should structurally be able to avoid yielding without jumping through hoops
No secondaries should double-dip with each other. [IE: Thin Their Ranks and Bring it Down]


First pass solutions would be:
Move Thin Their Ranks, Bring it Down, Assassinate, and Abhor the Witch to be in the same category ["Purge the Enemy"], so you can't take any two of them together.
Remove the clause about adding 1 VP per vehicle with 11+ wounds from Thin Their Ranks. Seriously, why is this in the objective for killing light infantry hordes?
Change Bring it Down so that dreadnoughts and pengines aren't advantaged score-wise over tanks. Seriously, especially with duty eternal they're no less tough than killing a Rhino or Razorback, they're in fact probably tougher. Either making all vehicles 3 points, or all vehicles 2 points, would work, depending on how easy it should be to score.
Send Cut off the Head to replace Thin Their Ranks in "No Mercy, No Respite". It's not really pertinent to killing anything specific built into a list, everyone has a warlord, it doesn't belong in a category with the other anti-skew kill objectives.

Create an objective that should generally be able to be scored easily against SM or Custodes lists that aren't heavily into vehicles:
-- An all-infantry SM list [at least mine] averages around 15 3+ wound infantry/biker/cavalry models and around 30-40 2 wound infantry models.
-- Killing about 40%-50% of this force should give full credit for the objective [40%-50% by points is comparable with Thin Their Ranks, Bring it Down, and Abhor the Witch, which requires about 750-1000 points of light infantry, 600-750 points of vehicles, or about 600-1000 points of GK/Tsons respectively to score out]
-- Therefore, I would propose a wording like "score 1 point for: every model with 3+ wounds destroyed [~750 points of Custodes or Terminators or Thundercav], and every 3 models with 2 wounds destroyed [~1200 points of Marines]"
This wording would be roughly on par with Bring it Down and Abhor the Witch in terms of ease of scorability.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 20:13:49


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 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Because for example a lot of elite infantries are 1W.
Immortals are one, but also pretty much all elite aspect warriors. Harlequins are clearly elite infantries but are 1W. Aberrants are clearly elite with 2W and high PPM, but have a 5+ save.
Is an elite infantry defined only by the defensive profile or by the whole package? For example, is a repentia an elite infantry for you? Each of them costs quite a bit of points afterall. What about a genestealer?
How would you consider a Witchseeker? A Tzaangor enlightened? A flamer of Tzeentch?

There are dozens of examples of elite infantries that don't fit in your definition, simply because with a vast range of models like the one of this game, the ways you can be elite are enormous.


This wouldn't be an issue at all. No one is asking for a secondary that hurts elites, we're asking a secondary that hurts infantry models with 3 or more wounds. Those harlequins, repentias, aberrants and even classic power armour marines wouldn't be affected at all.

Other units like meganobz would be affected but if someone brings just one or maybe two units of 3+ wounds models, along with cheaper dudes and vehicles, a secondary that hurts them is not that effective, therefore it wouldn't hurt the army.


Wait, that's different.

3 or more wound models is a different definition and something to which I can agree with.
   
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Danmark

bat702 wrote:
basically like thin their ranks or bring it down but something that rewards you for killing multiple wound high save infantry


yes thank god im playing Orks against my friend who plays Custodies, and there are so few secondaries that work for me.

Absolutely nothing related to killing suits killing elites

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
See, I wouldn't define Aspect Warriors as elite, nor would I define Immortals as elite.

Aspect Warriors are worse than Militarum Tempestus? Are they elite? Are skitarii? I think not.

Immortals might be hard to shift, but they're not really in the same league as intercessors or nobs or basic tactical marines. I don't even think they're as good as Flash Gitz, except that they have obsec and are cheaper (i.e. have attributes of non-elite units). And have RP, which is an army trait that applies to Necron Warriors. Are Necron Warriors elite, because they're also hard to shift? They're harder to shift than Immortals.

I think if you include things like Aspect Warriors especially, you have to start including MT and Skitarii. MT aren't too much better than Kabalites with deep strike, who are basically IG veterans.


I said ELITE aspect warriors. Not guardians, not dire avengers.

Warp spiders are not on the level of a skitarii. Dark reapers are not militarum tempestus.


Banshees are elite aspect warriors, and are basically crappy versions of the hoplite skitarii. Swooping Hawks are elite aspect warriors, and functionally indistinguishable from MT (their only unique thing is their grenade pack which isn't very good). Fire Dragons are an elite aspect warrior, and their only difference from a melta command squad is 1 slightly better armor (and worse guns that don't get the melta rule) and model count.

Meanwhile, Dire Avengers are not nearly the level of devastators and Warp Spiders are not nearly the level of plasma inceptors.


So you are saying that taking down a 30+ ppm model should be worth the same as taking down a 5 ppm model. So the assassination secondary is perfectly done for you I guess.


No, I'm saying you're misdefining elite infantry. I never made a claim about 'worth'. Furthermore, I would never make such a claim, because GW's points costs are not accurate representations of a unit's effectiveness on the battlefield.

When you're done wasting your time, do try to clean up the straw you've left all over the floor.


Just trying to show you why what you say is illogic.

There is no definition of elite infantry, you fabricated one for yourself, but it is by far not a shared definition. For me for example there is no world where a Dark Reaper isn't an elite infantry.

You can't make a secondary if you can't make a definition for it.

You are the only one in here "misdefining" things.
   
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The context to all of this is that ITC had that very secondary, and GW copied the ITC secondaries with minor tweaks, except that they "oddly" left off the one that would cover gravis (and necron destroyers). All they had to do was keep that secondary, but they removed it, for reasons which they have never owned up to. Meanwhile, more than half of the new releases fall into the category that secondary would cover.

It's a very convenient coincidence, if that's what it is.


   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Beardedragon wrote:
bat702 wrote:
basically like thin their ranks or bring it down but something that rewards you for killing multiple wound high save infantry


yes thank god im playing Orks against my friend who plays Custodies, and there are so few secondaries that work for me.

Absolutely nothing related to killing suits killing elites


Except that such secondary wouldn't do you any good in that case.

The "quality" of a custodes wound is completely different to the wounds of other models. They are T5 2+.

Any secondary which is based on wounds would never be good against custodes. If it did, it would mean that it is absolutely broken against other more common models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The context to all of this is that ITC had that very secondary, and GW copied the ITC secondaries with minor tweaks, except that they "oddly" left off the one that would cover gravis (and necron destroyers). All they had to do was keep that secondary, but they removed it, for reasons which they have never owned up to. Meanwhile, more than half of the new releases fall into the category that secondary would cover.

It's a very convenient coincidence, if that's what it is.




Gangbuster many times in the history of ITC, simply because they could never make it right.
Not to mention that we are not even talking about the same thing, because gangbuster was NOT against elite infantry, but 3W+ models (it was specifically aimed at Centurions).

Now if you want a secondary which works against Gravis skew, then we can talk because that has its merits, but it is my impression that what the people want in this thread is something to punish PEQ.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/05 20:29:59


 
   
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Now if you want a secondary which works against Gravis skew, then we can talk because that has its merits, but it is my impression that what the people want in this thread is something to punish PEQ.


No. Some want that. Most just think it's silly that PEQ can simply ignore being scored on ...


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Tycho wrote:
Now if you want a secondary which works against Gravis skew, then we can talk because that has its merits, but it is my impression that what the people want in this thread is something to punish PEQ.


No. Some want that. Most just think it's silly that PEQ can simply ignore being scored on ...



They think that because SM are OP and they grasp at anything that can nerf them, which is a sentiment that I can understand, but it doesn't mean that they are right.

Faction balance is a thing. If faction balance is bad you act on the mission balance.
Mission design is another thing. You don't change mission design to nerf a faction.

Basic rules for game design.

There is nothing that punishes banshees either. Where's all the threads about that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/05 20:38:01


 
   
 
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