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That's the entire point of the debate. Several vehicles aren't bad for their cost, they are even good or very good IF compared to other codexes. Instead if they compete with other SM units then no, they're not effective point wise, sometimes to the point that they are utterly overperformed by something else.

SM vehicles suffer too much from internal competition, but against other factions they'll do fine or very well.

I refuse to play imperium vs imperium since 3rd edition, not for a matter of balance, and for me SW vehicles are doing good. I can even field a LR crusader and get a fair game against a semi competitive list.

I find it difficult to believe that even a semi-competitive list is having a struggle with a LR. Even a Crusader ... Curious what you are doing that you are having success? Mine has been in mothballs for ages. Would love to get it off the shelf.

3 Razorbacks in a Deathwatch army can bring some ranged firepower. They fit a role.

3 Repulsors are something I feared playing against with an 8th edition Chaos army. Always hard to crack.

Yeah, I think you're almost forced to use multiples now, regardless of which vehicle it is. Except Impulsors. At 110 and no "Fly" I still think they're a huge point sink lol

Tycho wrote:


I find it difficult to believe that even a semi-competitive list is having a struggle with a LR. Even a Crusader ... Curious what you are doing that you are having success? Mine has been in mothballs for ages. Would love to get it off the shelf.

I simply play one of the competitive SM chapter, that's how powerful they are. The Crusader specifically is legit for me because I need more anti infantry weapons (I don't have any primaris and refuse to add any) and a ride for 16 dudes may be handy. Other LRs don't have a purpose considering the models I have available.

And as I said I'm a bit biased because I don't play against other imperium factions, outside them anti tank is typically not that effective.

I would say some stil has a place.

The attack helicopters are good snipers as they are very hard to screen against. (Try screening 360 in an army with so few models as SM. To make matters vorse non vehicle/monsters do not grant look out sir if they are 2 or less models. Shoot a unit from a 3 man units and you can now kill a hero. And the look out sir is directional.)

Razor backs are good. Doubly so + Rhinoes for space wolves.

Whirld wind can support a melee oriented army with is unique stratagem.

Er, vehicles and monsters absolutely grant LOS.

They do. But it is only directional, or have I read the rules wrong? You need to have a vehicle (or monster) between you and the flying model. Or have the vehicle be closer than the flyer and be within 3" of the character.

So if my opponents Dakkajet is looking straight at a wolf lord thunder wolf with a rhino directly to his right. All that Dakkajet need to do is turn slightly to the left and move up. Now you can target that wolf lord to your hearts delight. Or am I reading the rules wrong?

Assassins where good in 8th edition. The snipers of 9th are flyers with good movabilaty. It is not impossible to screen for. But maintaining that screen throughout the game is difficult. My nids and GSC have a hard time VS 2 dakkajets. SM vehicles seems better.

Edit: It seems i have played the rule a little wrong as the way to break it is to have the character be the closest target. Stil very doable though. I stil think flyers are good assassins, at least makes your opponents movement difficult if nothing else.

Page 219 – Look Out, Sir
Change this rule to read:
‘Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character models
with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon
while that Character unit is within 3" of any of the following:
• A friendly unit that contains 1 or more Vehicle or Monster
models with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more.
• A friendly non-Character unit that contains 1 or more
Vehicle or Monster models.
• A friendly non-Character unit that contains 3 or
more models.
In all cases, if that Character unit is both visible to the firing
model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, it
can be targeted normally. When determining if that Character
unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing model, ignore other
enemy units that contain any Character models with a Wounds
characteristics of 9 or less.’

LoS is weird right now.

A character in the wide open can be shot freely
A character that meets the above criteria cannot be shot freely.
A character that is closer to the firer, while still having valid non-character units near it, but still not the CLOSEST enemy unit to the firer, still cannot be shot freely.

That last one catches people all the time. Character doesnt have to be behind whats protecting it, just not be the actual closest unit per that last paragraph. But something does need to be near it, unlike 8th.

Yeah but flyers in general, especially aircrafts in particular just need to land besides the character and kill it to death. If no such oppertunat pressents itself you have messed up the opponents movement.

For instance trying to defend a thunder wolf lord with 5 thunder wolves will be hard VS an a startes airplane.