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SirGunslinger wrote: DG and one DA banner just happen to counter D2, utterly useless is a real big stretch. Marines have good shooting and good melee so you can do really well kitted for either, but without some melee units to bully points you’re going to have a bad time, and BGV do that job probably the best in the base codex.
You are thinking to small.
Necrons more or less don't care about damage.
They have reanimations.
Marines are probably spamming dreads
DG ignore flat 2 across the board.
Most Hq's have an option for -1 damage and who the heck wont take it?
Then there is 1 wound models that don't care ether way. daemons and quins.
Those are the top armies in 40k - flat 2 is utterly/practically useless vs all of them.
Better off taking more intercessors IMO. Take TH on the sergeant.
That's why I still don't understand the hype about D2 weapons, they're in the worst state ever compared to D3 which are perfectly suited for the current meta
1. D2 is great against Primaris (unless/until people start using lots of Gravis armor).
2. D3 is comparatively rare.
SirGunslinger wrote: DG and one DA banner just happen to counter D2, utterly useless is a real big stretch. Marines have good shooting and good melee so you can do really well kitted for either, but without some melee units to bully points you’re going to have a bad time, and BGV do that job probably the best in the base codex.
You are thinking to small.
Necrons more or less don't care about damage.
They have reanimations.
Marines are probably spamming dreads
DG ignore flat 2 across the board.
Most Hq's have an option for -1 damage and who the heck wont take it?
Then there is 1 wound models that don't care ether way. daemons and quins.
Those are the top armies in 40k - flat 2 is utterly/practically useless vs all of them.
Better off taking more intercessors IMO. Take TH on the sergeant.
That's why I still don't understand the hype about D2 weapons, they're in the worst state ever compared to D3 which are perfectly suited for the current meta
1. D2 is great against Primaris (unless/until people start using lots of Gravis armor).
2. D3 is comparatively rare.
I think that's really about it.
D2 is great against Basic Primaris Troops which are nowadays the only 2W models Marines are ever taking; rest of the list is entirely comprised of T4/T5 3W models nowadays
SirGunslinger wrote: DG and one DA banner just happen to counter D2, utterly useless is a real big stretch. Marines have good shooting and good melee so you can do really well kitted for either, but without some melee units to bully points you’re going to have a bad time, and BGV do that job probably the best in the base codex.
You are thinking to small.
Necrons more or less don't care about damage.
They have reanimations.
Marines are probably spamming dreads
DG ignore flat 2 across the board.
Most Hq's have an option for -1 damage and who the heck wont take it?
Then there is 1 wound models that don't care ether way. daemons and quins.
Those are the top armies in 40k - flat 2 is utterly/practically useless vs all of them.
Better off taking more intercessors IMO. Take TH on the sergeant.
That's why I still don't understand the hype about D2 weapons, they're in the worst state ever compared to D3 which are perfectly suited for the current meta
1. D2 is great against Primaris (unless/until people start using lots of Gravis armor).
2. D3 is comparatively rare.
I think that's really about it.
D2 is great against Basic Primaris Troops which are nowadays the only 2W models Marines are ever taking; rest of the list is entirely comprised of T4/T5 3W models nowadays
People still use old marines too, many of which are 2W now. I forgot about that earlier.
We're still seeing a lot of mix in Space Marine lists. If Gravis becomes the standard it'll shake out different, but there's still 2W stuff quite often. Terminators going to 3W might shake off the 2W meta though.
SirGunslinger wrote: DG and one DA banner just happen to counter D2, utterly useless is a real big stretch. Marines have good shooting and good melee so you can do really well kitted for either, but without some melee units to bully points you’re going to have a bad time, and BGV do that job probably the best in the base codex.
You are thinking to small.
Necrons more or less don't care about damage.
They have reanimations.
Marines are probably spamming dreads
DG ignore flat 2 across the board.
Most Hq's have an option for -1 damage and who the heck wont take it?
Then there is 1 wound models that don't care ether way. daemons and quins.
Those are the top armies in 40k - flat 2 is utterly/practically useless vs all of them.
Better off taking more intercessors IMO. Take TH on the sergeant.
That's why I still don't understand the hype about D2 weapons, they're in the worst state ever compared to D3 which are perfectly suited for the current meta
1. D2 is great against Primaris (unless/until people start using lots of Gravis armor).
2. D3 is comparatively rare.
I think that's really about it.
D2 is great against Basic Primaris Troops which are nowadays the only 2W models Marines are ever taking; rest of the list is entirely comprised of T4/T5 3W models nowadays
People still use old marines too, many of which are 2W now. I forgot about that earlier.
We're still seeing a lot of mix in Space Marine lists. If Gravis becomes the standard it'll shake out different, but there's still 2W stuff quite often. Terminators going to 3W might shake off the 2W meta though.
Aside from Vanguard Veterans and Sanguinary Guard, nobody is playing W2 oldmarines
Bladeguard are quite strong options. They typically benefit quite a lot from a Chaplain's Exhortation of Rage or just being Blood Angels; without one of those buffs they will have problems with heavier targets.
Some of the DG and Dark Angels tech have taken a bit of shine off of them in the current meta, but I see them as an enduring staple overall.
Necrons do care about damage, it’s the difference between their multi-wound units getting wiped and having models left so they can reanimate. If Marines are spamming dreads your Eradicators are going to have a field day, and if you run BA or White Scars their -1 damage won’t save them for long. Everyone having warlord traits for -1 damage is an exaggeration, and even if they do, they are giving up buff warlord traits, which is, you know, what HQs do . 1 wound models will get murdered just as hard, and again, BGV are take all comers midfield bullies.
Your specialized strikers, whether they are chaff blenders or heavy hitters, can get into the fight in the middle if needed, and your shooting also exists. BGV are perfect all-rounders: very tough, they hit pretty hard, and they are costed well. Are you planning on throwing intercessors at midfield meat grinder? Because my Bladeguard are going to have a good time with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started writing this when Xenomancer’s post was fresh. It now looks out of place.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/16 04:59:06
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SirGunslinger wrote: Necrons do care about damage, it’s the difference between their multi-wound units getting wiped and having models left so they can reanimate. If Marines are spamming dreads your Eradicators are going to have a field day, and if you run BA or White Scars their -1 damage won’t save them for long. Everyone having warlord traits for -1 damage is an exaggeration, and even if they do, they are giving up buff warlord traits, which is, you know, what HQs do . 1 wound models will get murdered just as hard, and again, BGV are take all comers midfield bullies.
Your specialized strikers, whether they are chaff blenders or heavy hitters, can get into the fight in the middle if needed, and your shooting also exists. BGV are perfect all-rounders: very tough, they hit pretty hard, and they are costed well. Are you planning on throwing intercessors at midfield meat grinder? Because my Bladeguard are going to have a good time with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started writing this when Xenomancer’s post was fresh. It now looks out of place.
Eh, the best Necron units are the W1 units though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
SirGunslinger wrote: Necrons do care about damage, it’s the difference between their multi-wound units getting wiped and having models left so they can reanimate. If Marines are spamming dreads your Eradicators are going to have a field day, and if you run BA or White Scars their -1 damage won’t save them for long. Everyone having warlord traits for -1 damage is an exaggeration, and even if they do, they are giving up buff warlord traits, which is, you know, what HQs do . 1 wound models will get murdered just as hard, and again, BGV are take all comers midfield bullies.
Your specialized strikers, whether they are chaff blenders or heavy hitters, can get into the fight in the middle if needed, and your shooting also exists. BGV are perfect all-rounders: very tough, they hit pretty hard, and they are costed well. Are you planning on throwing intercessors at midfield meat grinder? Because my Bladeguard are going to have a good time with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started writing this when Xenomancer’s post was fresh. It now looks out of place.
Eh, the best Necron units are the W1 units though.
For the most part yes.
Flat 2 is a bad profile right now seriously. Str 5 is also pretty terrible for a melee unit. BT can make them str 6 and BA have +1 to W so they are a lot better with those chapters. For BA though - they have much better melee units which are fast. It is really just BT that can actually get them into assault and have them hit hard enough to kill things. VV are a better unit overall and even those aren't great.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/17 21:37:51
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
SirGunslinger wrote: Necrons do care about damage, it’s the difference between their multi-wound units getting wiped and having models left so they can reanimate. If Marines are spamming dreads your Eradicators are going to have a field day, and if you run BA or White Scars their -1 damage won’t save them for long. Everyone having warlord traits for -1 damage is an exaggeration, and even if they do, they are giving up buff warlord traits, which is, you know, what HQs do . 1 wound models will get murdered just as hard, and again, BGV are take all comers midfield bullies.
Your specialized strikers, whether they are chaff blenders or heavy hitters, can get into the fight in the middle if needed, and your shooting also exists. BGV are perfect all-rounders: very tough, they hit pretty hard, and they are costed well. Are you planning on throwing intercessors at midfield meat grinder? Because my Bladeguard are going to have a good time with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started writing this when Xenomancer’s post was fresh. It now looks out of place.
Eh, the best Necron units are the W1 units though.
For the most part yes.
Flat 2 is a bad profile right now seriously. Str 5 is also pretty terrible for a melee unit. BT can make them str 6 and BA have +1 to W so they are a lot better with those chapters. For BA though - they have much better melee units which are fast. It is really just BT that can actually get them into assault and have them hit hard enough to kill things. VV are a better unit overall and even those aren't great.
The issue is your misunderstanding what BGV are good for, and as such think they are not good.
The goal of BGV's is to stand on a mid field objective and make your opponent worry about how to get them off. The save, invul and the possilbility of Trans-Human are what make BGV's good. Their number of attacks is good enough that your opponent needs to throw a serious unit at them to stand a chance, the damage 2 is just gravy on top.
That is also why the speed is not that big of an issue. you only need to get half way across the board. Their job is not to attack the opponents deployment zone and kill their precious units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 14:35:58
SirGunslinger wrote: Necrons do care about damage, it’s the difference between their multi-wound units getting wiped and having models left so they can reanimate. If Marines are spamming dreads your Eradicators are going to have a field day, and if you run BA or White Scars their -1 damage won’t save them for long. Everyone having warlord traits for -1 damage is an exaggeration, and even if they do, they are giving up buff warlord traits, which is, you know, what HQs do . 1 wound models will get murdered just as hard, and again, BGV are take all comers midfield bullies.
Your specialized strikers, whether they are chaff blenders or heavy hitters, can get into the fight in the middle if needed, and your shooting also exists. BGV are perfect all-rounders: very tough, they hit pretty hard, and they are costed well. Are you planning on throwing intercessors at midfield meat grinder? Because my Bladeguard are going to have a good time with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I started writing this when Xenomancer’s post was fresh. It now looks out of place.
Eh, the best Necron units are the W1 units though.
For the most part yes.
Flat 2 is a bad profile right now seriously. Str 5 is also pretty terrible for a melee unit. BT can make them str 6 and BA have +1 to W so they are a lot better with those chapters. For BA though - they have much better melee units which are fast. It is really just BT that can actually get them into assault and have them hit hard enough to kill things. VV are a better unit overall and even those aren't great.
The issue is your misunderstanding what BGV are good for, and as such think they are not good.
The goal of BGV's is to stand on a mid field objective and make your opponent worry about how to get them off. The save, invul and the possilbility of Trans-Human are what make BGV's good. Their number of attacks is good enough that your opponent needs to throw a serious unit at them to stand a chance, the damage 2 is just gravy on top.
That is also why the speed is not that big of an issue. you only need to get half way across the board. Their job is not to attack the opponents deployment zone and kill their precious units.
no doubt they can just stand there doing nothing where a shooting unit which is equally defensible can do things while it's standing there. Heavy intercessors for example. BGV are bad. As are all melee units without guns that move 6" and no reliable way to make combat. They can be decent in a BT list that just spams them with the ability to advance and charge and a ton of bonus movement. The BGV aren't doing nothing in that list though.
Ne reason to take them over VV in any other list.
VV can take better weapons LC/TH / have double the movement with jump packs. Can be just as durable with storm shields on a few dudes. Even assault intercessors can make a case over BGV. Trust me I am not arguing that they wont make their points back in melee. They are really efficient in melee. It just doesn't matter. It not like they are the be all on durability ether. I park devestator squads on objectives and they do just fine...all while blowing opponents off objectives. If they dont even have guns to shoot back - it is pretty much auto win for me at that point.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
News to me. Plus their melee counterpunch is way better.
Edit: Against S1-3, BGV are more durable due to better save.
Against S6-7, BGV are more durable due to better save.
Against S10+, BGV are more durable due to better save.
So we need to check S4, S5, and S8-9.
Spoiler:
S4 wounds BGV 1/2 times and Heavy Intercessors 1/3 times.
At AP0, that's 1/12 as compared to 1/9. BGV win.
At AP-1, that's 1/6 as compared to 1/6. Tie.
At AP-2, that's 1/4 as compared to 2/9. BGV lose.
At AP-3, that's 1/4 as compared to 5/18. BGV win.
ATAP-4 or greater, that's 1/4 as compared to 1/3. BGV win.
S5 wounds BGV 2/3 times and Heavy Intercessors 1/2 times.
At AP0, that's 1/9 as compared to 1/6. BGV win.
At AP-1, that's 2/9 as compared to 1/4. BGV win.
At AP-2, that's 1/3 as compared to 1/3. Tie.
At AP-3, that's 1/3 as compared to 5/12. BGV win.
At AP-4 or greater, that's 1/3 as compared to 1/2. BGV win.
S8-9 wounds BGV 5/6 times and Heavy Intercessors 2/3 times.
At AP0*, that's 5/36 as compared to 2/9. BGV win.
At AP-1*, that's 5/18 as compared to 1/3. BGV win.
At AP-2, that's 5/12 as compared to 4/9. BGV win.
At AP-3, that's 5/12 as compared to 5/9. BGV win.
At AP-4 or greater, that's 5/12 as compared to 2/3. BGV win.
*Does that even exist?
So, at S4 AP-2, BGV are less durable than Heavy Intercessors.
Literally every other profile in the game they're equally or more durable.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/18 17:29:36
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
News to me. Plus their melee counterpunch is way better.
28 points vs 35points. Depends what you shoot them with. They are gonna die at about the same rate vs most weapons. HI all the while have guns and can threaten units are much more durable to mortal wounds. The point is they aren't being useless.
Any advantage is hugely minor considering - BGV do nothing but stand there being useless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 17:34:15
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
News to me. Plus their melee counterpunch is way better.
28 points vs 35points. Depends what you shoot them with. They are gonna die at about the same rate vs most weapons. HI all the while have guns and can threaten units are much more durable to mortal wounds. The point is they aren't being useless.
Any advantage is hugely minor considering - BGV do nothing but stand there being useless.
Getting points that achieve you victory is useless now?
Because I can see a couple of situations.
1) The opponent wants to clear you off the objective and take it for themselves. So they charge you-BGV are far better.
2) The opponent wants to clear you off the objective and doesn't care if they take it. So they shoot you-BGV are equal or better unless it's S4 AP-2 exactly.
3) The opponent wants to take it, but is too scared of the BGV to charge you. So you earn points and they don't, or if they shoot you off, they don't have any unit claiming it (because they didn't charge) and so neither gains points, instead of your opponent getting some and you getting none.
And, as per what you proposed earlier (with your 3 Custodian Guard versus 3 BGV) I thought points didn't matter? Keep it consistent, my man.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
I found in a 9th Ed tourney with the DA Index that a unit of Bladeguard Veterans was great at taking and holding central/no-mans land objectives. As Galas says, they can kick units off objectives (which VV can certainly do) and then sit there, taking enemy fire and counter-charges. I think they do the holding part (and therefore VP scoring) better than VV, but then again I don't have access to VV!
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
I'm not seeing in this new meta of FNPs and -1 Damage any utility coming from BGV (aside from Inner Circles ones) when you can just pick up VVs and be equally durable per point but with a much stronger melee profile (who cares about the AP-3 when you've got S8 and D3 which are MILES AHEAD of S5 D2 right now)
Galas wrote: And here comes Xenomancers to tell us that Bladeguard veterans are actually bad... yeah thats why most competitive lists spam them.
I mean. I think VV are better but is like... they are fighting for the top spot. Any other meele codex would kill for units like those two.
You mean like I mentioned BT spam them? They have a chapter tactic that make them useable - that is why. Other codex being flat out bad has nothing to do with BG being a good unit. They aren't even the best option in their own codex. Whos spamming VV right now who you even admit are a better unit? Which I agree with too!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 21:51:54
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Are BGV used successfully in competitive play? Yes absolutely, they are one of the most popular and successful units in the roster.
Are they used as a damage unit? No, although they do enough to help in their actual role: centre objective take-and-hold. In that role they are superb.
Are they terrible? No of course not, that's not a defensible thesis.
Are they impact by the emerging meta? Probably, in that mortal wounds threaten them and D2 is less optimal now. Time will tell if these two things will be enough to steal their crown. It's perfectly imagineable that they will still be the best option for that pivotal 9e role in SM lists.
