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sanguine40k wrote:
Transhuman should be -1 to wound, not how it is currently.

The current version makes no difference in durability against S4 and below weapons while being vastly op against s8+ weapons and makes any +1 to wound rules/stratagems completely pointless.

It's bad design.

You'd probably hand terminators a huge win there. They've always been vulnerable to numbers and this would make them way more survivable against the obsec units and most melee attacks.

The Loyalist Marine players are pissed that GW gave the "loyalist" Choas worshipers better rules than them.

Man the up coming Choas codex must be absolutely bonkers.

Well we shall see if xeno actually get a fair shake at this codex power yeeting.

Quick reminder for a bunch of you guys, as you seem to be confused about it.

Xenomancers is not the official representitive of the whole Space Marine Community™.

As much as you like to stick it into the face of fellow gamers for their chosen army, please try to differentiate a bit more.

Thank you.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Quick reminder for a bunch of you guys, as you seem to be confused about it.

Xenomancers is not the official representitive of the whole Space Marine Community™.

Doesn't make this any less funny.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Quick reminder for a bunch of you guys, as you seem to be confused about it.

Xenomancers is not the official representitive of the whole Space Marine Community™.

As much as you like to stick it into the face of fellow gamers for their chosen army, please try to differentiate a bit more.

Thank you.

Go AWAY with your common sense, WE ARE SALTY HERE!

/S

jokes aside, GW fethed internal balnce seemingly once again with the equivalent of a streetlamp.

 Da Boss wrote:
Why do they need ObSec and special rules for using plasma weapons? Bit of a weird response.

The weirdness with this list stems from trying to manufacture difference for this faction of marines who are essentially very similar to Ultramarines, just with edgier background and a special paintjob for their bikers and terminators. What's the point? The units are already available, they don't need special rules if you want to run them. Just run them.

Couldn't agree more. What's weirder is that we've had things like Death Company armies for Blood Angels in the past, or Formations for Space Wolves to take nothing but TWC and Wulfen in their army yet nobody seems to be clamouring for special rules to allow you to take those things and still get ObSec and a bunch of other benefits. The detachment system allows you to take pretty much whatever you want in an army so it's not like you can't build a Deathwing or Ravenwing army without a bunch of special rules tacked on to help you.

It's odd that DA don't just get a modified Terminator entry to allow mixed squads and a special Deathwing Knight unit along with the Inner Circle upgrades like, say, Blood Angels with their DC Dread and the DC upgrade for their Capt/Lt. Even then, you could argue the mixed-weapon Terminator squad isn't that essential. Instead they get a bunch of extra special rules and a special detachment to give them ObSec for those units. It's this pick-and-choose, but seemingly at random, approach from GW that's the most frustrating thing here. You already have the flexibility built in to your system so why add extra bonuses on top?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:
Transhuman should be -1 to wound, not how it is currently.

The current version makes no difference in durability against S4 and below weapons while being vastly op against s8+ weapons and makes any +1 to wound rules/stratagems completely pointless.

It's bad design.

You'd probably hand terminators a huge win there. They've always been vulnerable to numbers and this would make them way more survivable against the obsec units and most melee attacks.

The only terminators who get 'Transhuman' are DW, due to terminators not having the Primaris keyword.

Yes, it does make lower strength weapons weaker comparatively, but in any matchup than DW you can switch targets and don't have to deal with it... Knocking down the output from IS and equivalents versus one target is less of a buff than the nerf in survivability versus higher strength weapons AND it allows +1 to wound rules and strategems to actually have an effect.

As an additional benefit to play, it makes it more of an interesting choice rather than the 'i am getting shot by big scary guns, pop Transhuman' no-brainer it currently is.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think it is time for a proper Ultramarines supplement with a similar idea behind the fluffiness and free stratagems applied across your whole army.

You mean like being able to fall back and still shoot ? Or even, I don't know, move and still count as stationary ?

The big problem is that lots of people feel that every little difference in the fluff should lead to rules differences. I personally disagree with this because a +1 to something already means a huge difference on the scale of the game. And honestly, there might be differences between chapters, but I don't think that they would ever be that big compared to the other differences we see in the game that barely even give a +1 (sure, some marines might learn better shooting, but the difference will be smaller than the difference between them and a storm trooper for instance).

 CEO Kasen wrote:

Tycho wrote:

It was facetious in the sense that it wasn't a literal suggestion that the Ultras need more buffs. It was, however, an earnest complaint from one Marine flavor - a pretty good one at that - about the DA?

It's pretty simple. I don't get the confusion here. It's the conversation Dakka's been having for months - "Marines are too good, but there's nothing wrong with them, but also they need more buffs, unless it's those marines, but I'm not talking about them, I mean these marines, who are not as good as the other marines, but better than those other marines. Marines are perfect."

It's like you haven't even been paying attention.

Is "You" Fraser or me? 'Cause I'm totally in the boat that says Marines are having way too much everything, that one marine flavor complaining about a better one is ironic enough to sweep aside the Bronze age, and that this is basically how non-Marine players have likely been feeling since August of 2019.

See? Again ... I feel like I'm being perfectly clear here. You must be one of those "Xenos" players I've heard so much about. (never met one in real life which is why, I think, I was slow to pick up on it here). There are no problems with marines. They are fine. Quit whining and enjoy your Necron release. Marines are perfect in every way. You can't possibly be seeing anything wrong here unless you're just going out of your way to be negative. Seriously. All marines, except those marines, are perfect, unless they're not my marines, who are totally fine except those other marines got something MY marines kind of had but not really, but if you even bothered to try to see it from the point of view of my marines you would get it, but you can't because you're too busy complaining about all the stuff marines get. Which, as anyone with a modicum of sense knows, is not, in any way unbalanced. At all. With the possible exception of THOSE marines. WHich, to reiterate, are not MY marines.

I ... I ALMOST got al the way through that with a straight face ...

Tycho...
why!


haveth mine exalt though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Tycho...
why!


haveth mine exalt though.

The image in your spoiler tag ... I can't ....

My day has been made!

Tycho wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Tycho...
why!


haveth mine exalt though.

The image in your spoiler tag ... I can't ....

My day has been made!

i have a better one




Overall, this thread has been highjacked by heretics.
And the heresy train has no breaks, i fully expect the moaning though to increase a thousandfold when CSM get similar treatment... otoh salt would become a commodity after the IW tear mines have run out

Not Online!!! wrote:

Spoiler:

Tycho...
why!


haveth mine exalt though.

Ah, I see that George was able to influence Thomas for the better after all. Excellent.

Also, another exalt for Tycho!

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Why do they need ObSec and special rules for using plasma weapons? Bit of a weird response.

The weirdness with this list stems from trying to manufacture difference for this faction of marines who are essentially very similar to Ultramarines, just with edgier background and a special paintjob for their bikers and terminators. What's the point? The units are already available, they don't need special rules if you want to run them. Just run them.

Why would you assume you could build a good DA list that's just marines with plasma weapons?

Because a marine list with lots of plasma is already really good.

Id be fine with some theme apporach...like for example DA could take unlimited plasma dev units or and put plasmas on their terms...OH...THEY ALREADY CAN DO THAT. There is nothing in the fluff that supports DA plasma is better than other marines plasma - they just have more of it. Same with their terms. All terms are bad ass - DA just have more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think it is time for a proper Ultramarines supplement with a similar idea behind the fluffiness and free stratagems applied across your whole army.

You mean like being able to fall back and still shoot ? Or even, I don't know, move and still count as stationary ?

All marines have a super doctrine. DA is being able to shoot in melee. Quite comparable to fall back and shoot.

DA get a 1/2 CP stratagem for free on all their inner circle units which can be their entire army if they so chose. Lets say its 10 units - that is a 50-100 CP value.

 Xenomancers wrote:

All marines have a super doctrine. DA is being able to shoot in melee. Quite comparable to fall back and shoot.
DA get a 1/2 CP stratagem for free on all their inner circle units which can be their entire army if they so chose. Lets say its 10 units - that is a 50-100 CP value.

But you were asking to get free strats applied to your whole army. It's already the case since shooting after falling back is UM's chapter tactic while it's a strat for everyone else. How does this compare in your imaginary CP value ? And after you add the CP value of the super doctrine ?

Being able to shoot in melee isn't comparable at all with falling back, unless you think one unit shooting at one other unit is comparable to one army shooting at one unit. It is also limited to green wing infantry.

The point is, like the previous posters underlined : every special rule marines gets are stratagems in other armies, it's kinda rich to whine about another marine army from a marine perspective. Even when you're trying to be "funny" while doing it.

dhallnet wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All marines have a super doctrine. DA is being able to shoot in melee. Quite comparable to fall back and shoot.
DA get a 1/2 CP stratagem for free on all their inner circle units which can be their entire army if they so chose. Lets say its 10 units - that is a 50-100 CP value.

But you were asking to get free strats applied to your whole army. It's already the case since shooting after falling back is UM's chapter tactic while it's a strat for everyone else. How does this compare in your imaginary CP value ? And after you add the CP value of the super doctrine ?

Being able to shoot in melee isn't comparable at all with falling back, unless you think one unit shooting at one other unit is comparable to one army shooting at one unit. It is also limited to green wing infantry.

The point is, like the previous posters underlined : every special rule marines gets are stratagems in other armies, it's kinda rich to whine about another marine army from a marine perspective. Even when you're trying to be "funny" while doing it.

It is increasing the offensive potential against a unit that has engaged in melee - it is comparable. It actually increases the total offensive output for the unit as they are now eligible to shoot and melee where a fall back and shoot unit can only shoot.

I'm not being funny. I am being serious here. We are talking about clearly over the top rules by comparing DA to what other marines get. Technically all armies special rules are free - yes. If you lump together all the stuff marines get for free - dark angels are getting a lot of additional bonus which are not like the rest. They are unit specific buffs and their is no increase in points cost on these units. It is clearly unbalanced. We could argue that this free rule isn't equal to this free rule all day...but free rules compared to no rule...are obviously too good.

 Xenomancers wrote:
DA get a 1/2 CP stratagem for free on all their inner circle units which can be their entire army if they so chose. Lets say its 10 units - that is a 50-100 CP value.

Only Inner Circle Infantry units. At 35/105p for Bladeguard or 38/190p for the cheapest Terminator loadout will limit how many units you can bring rather quickly.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
DA get a 1/2 CP stratagem for free on all their inner circle units which can be their entire army if they so chose. Lets say its 10 units - that is a 50-100 CP value.

Only Inner Circle Infantry units. At 35/105p for Bladeguard or 38/190p for the cheapest Terminator loadout will limit how many units you can bring rather quickly.

Irrelevant on the cost of the units. More expensive units benefit more from free rules. It can be your whole army. It likely will. It will be too much. It will be nerfed.

If you want to make the point that the other player gets 50-100 points of CP for free, the amount of units that fit into an actual, playable army is very relevant.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It is increasing the offensive potential against a unit that has engaged in melee - it is comparable. It actually increases the total offensive output for the unit as they are now eligible to shoot and melee where a fall back and shoot unit can only shoot.

Fall back = Shoot with the whole army at the target, have to bring another unit if you need to fight in CC.
Shooting in melee = Shoot with whatever is stuck there, not forced to bring another unit to fight in CC.

One army can shoot with everything and then fight with everything but one unit, the other can shoot with only one unit and then fight with everything.

Dunno how it's similar at all but whatever.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'm not being funny. I am being serious here.

So this thread's title and first post weren't sarcastic at all ?

 Xenomancers wrote:

We are talking about clearly over the top rules by comparing DA to what other marines get. Technically all armies special rules are free - yes. If you lump together all the stuff marines get for free - dark angels are getting a lot of additional bonus which are not like the rest. They are unit specific buffs and their is no increase in points cost on these units. It is clearly unbalanced. We could argue that this free rule isn't equal to this free rule all day...but free rules compared to no rule...are obviously too good.

Obviously ?
They get Inner circle and jink at the cost of not having access to enhanced veterans, as they always have. But this wasn't an issue before because they weren't doing well I guess. So you actually want to talk about which free stuff is better.

Oh and yeah. Obsec on base bikes and termies if you follow some army building restrictions (and potentially additional costs). Looks like a lot of over the top free stuff they didn't have before.

So - wait - have we finally worked our way back around to "Marines Suck" again? Can we reset the clock ooooor ....


And before any more of you "Xenos" players jump in again here - I think I've had about enough of your whining. This thread is about the unfair treatment of MARINES!

Tycho wrote:
So - wait - have we finally worked our way back around to "Marines Suck" again? Can we reset the clock ooooor ....


And before any more of you "Xenos" players jump in again here - I think I've had about enough of your whining. This thread is about the unfair treatment of MARINES!

Small point of order you mean unfair treatment of LOYALIST MARINES" just look at GW giving the choas worshipers all the OP rules.

Small point of order you mean unfair treatment of LOYALIST MARINES" just look at GW giving the choas worshipers all the OP rules.

Yes. Yes. The Right Honorable Gentleman Ice_can is recognized. Apologies for the faux pas there! You Chaos blokes can see yourselves out with the Xenos players. Frankly, I've had it with the lot of you!

If you'll excuse me, I need to whack the side of my obviously broken Sarcasm Auspex against the the hull of this grav-tank.

If you'll excuse me, I need to whack the side of my obviously broken Sarcasm Auspex against the the hull of this grav-tank.

My apologies if you took me seriously. I thought you were playing along! Sorry if you thought I was giving you an actual hard time!

Tycho wrote:

If you'll excuse me, I need to whack the side of my obviously broken Sarcasm Auspex against the the hull of this grav-tank.

My apologies if you took me seriously. I thought you were playing along! Sorry if you thought I was giving you an actual hard time!

More momentarily confused than feeling hard-timed or anything. I blame insufficient sleep.

More momentarily confused than feeling hard-timed or anything. I blame insufficient sleep.

Aww man. You made me break character! Glad you weren't actually feeling attacked though! Unlike my poor marines ...