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 JNAProductions wrote:
For 20 Points, you get 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1 on a T3 W1 4++ body. And a single Shuriken Pistol shot.

For 19 Points, you get 4 attacks at S4 AP-1 D1 on a T4 W2 3+ body. And a single better Bolt Pistol shot.

If the Harlequins get the charge (likely, but not guaranteed) they put out 40 attacks, 80/3 hits, 160/9 wounds, and 320/27 failed saves. That's six dead, sometimes only five.
If the Marines get the charge, they put out 41 attacks, 82/3 hits, 164/9 wounds, and 82/9 failed saves. That's nine dead, occasionally the whole squad.

Yes, because 40k is all about units lining up in a vacuum and charging at one another; the player who kills the most stuff wins... Troupes of Players are literally among the single best units in the game right now in the competitive meta... I literally have no words for how bad this take is.

Doctrines have been pretty successful in pushing Marines away from a static gunline towards being rewarded for transitioning to a melee army without being a dedicated melee army.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally...I think entire armies where every unit has an invune save is much more a problem than some intermittent AP tossed around on specific turns.

I would actually be okay with marines losing the +1 attack on the first round as that is kinda...free. Yet we have harliquens running around ignoring most stats in the game and hitting with like 4-5 attacks each for the price of a primaris marine...

For 20 Points, you get 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1 on a T3 W1 4++ body. And a single Shuriken Pistol shot.

For 19 Points, you get 4 attacks at S4 AP-1 D1 on a T4 W2 3+ body. And a single better Bolt Pistol shot.

If the Harlequins get the charge (likely, but not guaranteed) they put out 40 attacks, 80/3 hits, 160/9 wounds, and 320/27 failed saves. That's six dead, sometimes only five.
If the Marines get the charge, they put out 41 attacks, 82/3 hits, 164/9 wounds, and 82/9 failed saves. That's nine dead, occasionally the whole squad.

The slower unit will never get the charge. Quins are about 2x as fast as marines as they can advance and charge and ignore intervening terrain. They also have things like...double damage stratagem...Which ensures they wipe primaris units in 1 shot. Not to mention their busted auras like...-1 to wound -6 inch range to weapons...3++ save stratagems. -1 attack auras. Not to mention every single model can have a fusion pistol.

Assault ints are also pretty garbage unless you take BT. Which are fine but it kinda sucks for the rest of the chapters. Shooty intercessors...too bad they wound these little clown cars on 6's due to -1 to wound aura...

Quinns on the whole are the most busted army in the game. No one complains about it cause they've never even seen it. They don't even know what broken is.

Want to beat marines? Take AP in your army and you remove them like guardsmen. Want to beat quins? Wish I could tell you how to do it consistently...my advice? Get lucky.

bat702 wrote:
You do have a point and I knew you had a point before you typed it.. the problem I see is people out there kind of get tired of only seeing a marine player at the other end of the table

Making them weak won't change that. Marines have been popular since the very start of the game and all making them weak does is flip who's complaining and change the 'Is [insert unit] too strong???' threads to 'How to buff [insert unit]???' threads. You'll see exactly as many Marines at the table as before.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally...I think entire armies where every unit has an invune save is much more a problem than some intermittent AP tossed around on specific turns.

I would actually be okay with marines losing the +1 attack on the first round as that is kinda...free. Yet we have harliquens running around ignoring most stats in the game and hitting with like 4-5 attacks each for the price of a primaris marine...

For 20 Points, you get 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1 on a T3 W1 4++ body. And a single Shuriken Pistol shot.

For 19 Points, you get 4 attacks at S4 AP-1 D1 on a T4 W2 3+ body. And a single better Bolt Pistol shot.

If the Harlequins get the charge (likely, but not guaranteed) they put out 40 attacks, 80/3 hits, 160/9 wounds, and 320/27 failed saves. That's six dead, sometimes only five.
If the Marines get the charge, they put out 41 attacks, 82/3 hits, 164/9 wounds, and 82/9 failed saves. That's nine dead, occasionally the whole squad.

The slower unit will never get the charge. Quins are about 2x as fast as marines as they can advance and charge and ignore intervening terrain. They also have things like...double damage stratagem...Which ensures they wipe primaris units in 1 shot. Not to mention their busted auras like...-1 to wound -6 inch range to weapons...3++ save stratagems. -1 attack auras.

Assault ints are also pretty garbage unless you take BT. Which are fine but it kinda sucks for the rest of the chapters. Shooty intercessors...too bad they wound these little clown cars on 6's due to -1 to wound aura...

Quinns on the whole are the most busted army in the game. No one complains about it cause they've never even seen it. They don't even know what broken is.

Want to beat marines? Take AP in your army and you remove them like guardsmen. Want to beat quins? Wish I could tell you how to do it consistently...my advice? Get lucky.

Erm... How are Intercessors wounding Harlequin Troupes on 6s? They're T3.

Also, if Assault Intercessors are garbage, what does it mean that they outfight a Troupe while being cheaper to boot?

@JNA You make the dirtiest Marine list you can think of and I'll throw a tournament placing Harlequin list at it and we'll see if your take still holds true.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
@JNA You make the dirtiest Marine list you can think of and I'll throw a tournament placing Harlequin list at it and we'll see if your take still holds true.

What take? It's just a comparison of one specific situation.

And furthermore, I'm not a tournament-winning player. I know I'm an average player-I don't pretend to be otherwise. So sure, a list I make would get bopped by a tournament-winning list. Likewise, if I played some football against Tom Brady, I'd get absolutely bopped too.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What take? It's just a comparison of one specific situation.

And furthermore, I'm not a tournament-winning player. I know I'm an average player-I don't pretend to be otherwise. So sure, a list I make would get bopped by a tournament-winning list. Likewise, if I played some football against Tom Brady, I'd get absolutely bopped too.

You're trying to make the Troupe choice of the strongest codex in the entire game seem weak by cherry-picking a scenario in which they still come off fairly well. I don't know if you just have no idea how they play or are being dishonest but this idea of tossing two units into a vacuum and making them math at one another proves feth all.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally...I think entire armies where every unit has an invune save is much more a problem than some intermittent AP tossed around on specific turns.

I would actually be okay with marines losing the +1 attack on the first round as that is kinda...free. Yet we have harliquens running around ignoring most stats in the game and hitting with like 4-5 attacks each for the price of a primaris marine...

For 20 Points, you get 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1 on a T3 W1 4++ body. And a single Shuriken Pistol shot.

For 19 Points, you get 4 attacks at S4 AP-1 D1 on a T4 W2 3+ body. And a single better Bolt Pistol shot.

If the Harlequins get the charge (likely, but not guaranteed) they put out 40 attacks, 80/3 hits, 160/9 wounds, and 320/27 failed saves. That's six dead, sometimes only five.
If the Marines get the charge, they put out 41 attacks, 82/3 hits, 164/9 wounds, and 82/9 failed saves. That's nine dead, occasionally the whole squad.

The slower unit will never get the charge. Quins are about 2x as fast as marines as they can advance and charge and ignore intervening terrain. They also have things like...double damage stratagem...Which ensures they wipe primaris units in 1 shot. Not to mention their busted auras like...-1 to wound -6 inch range to weapons...3++ save stratagems. -1 attack auras.

Assault ints are also pretty garbage unless you take BT. Which are fine but it kinda sucks for the rest of the chapters. Shooty intercessors...too bad they wound these little clown cars on 6's due to -1 to wound aura...

Quinns on the whole are the most busted army in the game. No one complains about it cause they've never even seen it. They don't even know what broken is.

Want to beat marines? Take AP in your army and you remove them like guardsmen. Want to beat quins? Wish I could tell you how to do it consistently...my advice? Get lucky.

Erm... How are Intercessors wounding Harlequin Troupes on 6s? They're T3.

Also, if Assault Intercessors are garbage, what does it mean that they outfight a Troupe while being cheaper to boot?

Clown cars are t5...bolters wound them on 5's...could easily get some damage done on 5's...However. PA makes shadowseer aura work on EVERY unit. So t5 is like shooting at t8 for a marine. also with minus 6 inch range - you rapid fire at 12...a quin can charge you with ease out of a transport at about 22 inches. I mean...its not just marines they wreck. It is everyone. Please...just stop complaining about stuff that is more than fine.

Assault ints have good damage. If they can get into melee and fight twice...thats 80 ap-2 attacks (if you can afford it) That will kill a lot of things. Getting 10 primaris into combat requires stratagems and specific chapter tactics - all of this to do what troopes do on their own whilst being more durable to the weapons you fear in CC. Priamris have pretty much no defense in CC.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What take? It's just a comparison of one specific situation.

And furthermore, I'm not a tournament-winning player. I know I'm an average player-I don't pretend to be otherwise. So sure, a list I make would get bopped by a tournament-winning list. Likewise, if I played some football against Tom Brady, I'd get absolutely bopped too.

You're trying to make the Troupe choice of the strongest codex in the entire game seem weak by cherry-picking a scenario in which they still come off fairly well. I don't know if you just have no idea how they play or are being dishonest but this idea of tossing two units into a vacuum and making them math at one another proves feth all.

It's a comparison Xeno was happy to do in another thread.

Xeno compared 3 Custodian Guard to 3 BGV, and since the Custodes won, that obviously means BGV aren't OP, since they couldn't kill a unit that's more than a fourth again their points cost.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's a comparison Xeno was happy to do in another thread.

Xeno compared 3 Custodian Guard to 3 BGV, and since the Custodes won, that obviously means BGV aren't OP, since they couldn't kill a unit that's more than a fourth again their points cost.

So your stance on bad arguments is that if you see one you'll just copy it and trot it out the next time you see the poster that made it? That seems pointless at best. If you want to win hearts and change minds try making a good argument back with actual facts, something which people on this forum are fething terrible at.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
What take? It's just a comparison of one specific situation.

And furthermore, I'm not a tournament-winning player. I know I'm an average player-I don't pretend to be otherwise. So sure, a list I make would get bopped by a tournament-winning list. Likewise, if I played some football against Tom Brady, I'd get absolutely bopped too.

You're trying to make the Troupe choice of the strongest codex in the entire game seem weak by cherry-picking a scenario in which they still come off fairly well. I don't know if you just have no idea how they play or are being dishonest but this idea of tossing two units into a vacuum and making them math at one another proves feth all.

It's a comparison Xeno was happy to do in another thread.

Xeno compared 3 Custodian Guard to 3 BGV, and since the Custodes won, that obviously means BGV aren't OP, since they couldn't kill a unit that's more than a fourth again their points cost.

I compared the 2 units in a situation they would likely encounter. CG are the custodians front line units and so are BGV.
CG shoot a lot better. Plus they have a better weapon have better stats across the board. OFC they cost a little more but they are taken in 3 man squads as are BGV. A marine army in general is going to lose to custodes in melee too. Forgone conclusion.

Unless you spend equal points, as in the BGV versus Guard comparison.

Or are White Scars, or another melee chapter.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Personally...I think entire armies where every unit has an invune save is much more a problem than some intermittent AP tossed around on specific turns.

I would actually be okay with marines losing the +1 attack on the first round as that is kinda...free. Yet we have harliquens running around ignoring most stats in the game and hitting with like 4-5 attacks each for the price of a primaris marine...

For 20 Points, you get 4 attacks at S5 AP-2 D1 on a T3 W1 4++ body. And a single Shuriken Pistol shot.

For 19 Points, you get 4 attacks at S4 AP-1 D1 on a T4 W2 3+ body. And a single better Bolt Pistol shot.

If the Harlequins get the charge (likely, but not guaranteed) they put out 40 attacks, 80/3 hits, 160/9 wounds, and 320/27 failed saves. That's six dead, sometimes only five.
If the Marines get the charge, they put out 41 attacks, 82/3 hits, 164/9 wounds, and 82/9 failed saves. That's nine dead, occasionally the whole squad.

The slower unit will never get the charge. Quins are about 2x as fast as marines as they can advance and charge and ignore intervening terrain. They also have things like...double damage stratagem...Which ensures they wipe primaris units in 1 shot. Not to mention their busted auras like...-1 to wound -6 inch range to weapons...3++ save stratagems. -1 attack auras. Not to mention every single model can have a fusion pistol.

Assault ints are also pretty garbage unless you take BT. Which are fine but it kinda sucks for the rest of the chapters. Shooty intercessors...too bad they wound these little clown cars on 6's due to -1 to wound aura...

Quinns on the whole are the most busted army in the game. No one complains about it cause they've never even seen it. They don't even know what broken is.

Want to beat marines? Take AP in your army and you remove them like guardsmen. Want to beat quins? Wish I could tell you how to do it consistently...my advice? Get lucky.

So admittedly, I'm pretty bad at piloting my harlequins. That said, your take on things seems pretty wonky to me.

Yes, harlies will be the first ones to pull off a charge. Which is certainly an advantage. But after that initial charge, they're exposed, and the benefit of their long charge reach is pretty much negated.

Yes they have invulns all over the place. Which is great if you're getting shot at by AP-2 bolt weapons or plasma or something. It's a lot less great if you're getting shot at by shootas, lasguns, etc. The clowns may never need worse than a 4+ to make their saves, but they generally only ever get to a 3+ save by spending CP. The 4+ invuln is good, but a 2+ armor save when you stand in light cover has its perks too.

The -1 to-wound aura is also good, but it only benefits vehicles if you're spending CP each turn to let it do so. And we're not exactly talking about land raiders here. A -1 to wound star weaver with a 4+ save isn't all that squishy, but it still has fewer wounds than a dreadnaught. That aura on infantry doesn't cost CP. Against anything strength 4 through strength 7, it basically has the same effect as making them T4 instead of T3. Against strength 8+, it's slightly better than that, but harlequin infantry probably aren't ideal targets for strength 8+ weapons in the first place.

I thought we were all on the same page that harlequins are pretty good in general, but that they're placing well lately because they're specifically good at countering marines.

So... since harlequins are T3, that makes SM OP against them by sheer virtue of having -1 AP?

"doctrine marines are OP against low T, low Sv, but it gets even worse when it comes to vehicles, and it gets even worse because most SM basic troops come with -1 AP base."

AP is not the problem here folks. It's the least important defensive/offensive characteristic of them all (AP based rolls are the last rolls to take place when both to hit and to wound rolls have passed & invul saves are given away like candies, as well as plethora of sources of cover saves).

It's pretty funny though to see harlequins to do a drive by on marines with their fusion pistols.

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