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 Grey Templar wrote:

This is actually why GW changed the names of most of their factions in the last 5 years. They couldn't hold the rights to Imperial Guard, Eldar, etc... Which is why you now have Craftworld, Ynnari, Drukhari, Astra Militarum, etc... For Fantasy, they changed Orcs to Orruks, Ogres to Ogors, etc...

Games published 28 and 24 years ago respectively are responsible for changes initiated by GW within the last 5 years?

Uh...


In any case, as others have already noted, Starcraft only resembles 40K in the most broad strokes in that any humans in power armor must be based on 40K space marines (Heinlein would no doubt be surprised by this), old alien races with psionic powers are all based off of the Eldar (those rascally Minbari!), and any alien race that uses another race's DNA to influence its evolution must be based off of the Tyranids (apparently someone forgot to tell the Alien franchise; note that the original Rogue Trader version of the genestealer was pretty much the xenomorph with the life cycle adapted for a table-top game, and that was before Space Hulk effectively replaced the Colonial Marines with Space Marines in Terminator Armor).

And then there's stuff like the Ravener, which was released after Starcraft, and - if you chopped off the arms - could probably stand in for a Hydralisk if someone wanted to build an army of Zerg miniatures.

Eumerin wrote:
Games published 28 and 24 years ago respectively are responsible for changes initiated by GW within the last 5 years?

I think they're the start of a long experience. More realistically, it's the Chapterhouse lawsuit that I think immediately changed GW's naming schemes. That itself goes back though to the observation that GW's work itself was very derivative. They want a tight IP with strong copyrights (I think they're preposterously over sensitive on this front but w/e). They did sue Blizzard in the 90s, but that itself fell through because GW's own work was also very derivative. The push now to make themselves more distinct is definitely driven by the Chapterhouse case, but I think it speaks to something GW has been conscious of for a lot longer than that.

A.T. wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The evidence is actually overwhelming that Starcraft and Warcraft were ripped from Warhammer, so you complaining about it makes no sense. Its not just Starcraft Marines resemble Space Marines. Its that everything in the games resembles something from Warhammer AND they built these IPs after a deal to make games with Games Workshop fell through. They changed just enough to avoid copyright infringement.

Your proposed timeline doesn't track out - development on Starcraft wasn't started until after Warcraft was finished and published, which would have been after any arrangement with GW had already fallen through.

Yes. After it fell through.

Step 1) Arrangement to make games based on GW IP.

Step 2) arrangement fell through.

Step 3) Recycle assets into what is today known as Warcraft and Starcraft.


Officially, only Warhammer Fantasy was in the pipeline for a proposed game. However, given how the industry operates it is likely that Blizzard also did some preparation of some 40k assets as well in case the Fantasy game turned out well. It would be a natural progression for them to do titles for both settings. Them waiting many years to launch Starcraft actually makes sense precisely to avoid any claims of IP infringement. But developing any IP takes many years, so the development would have to have begun shortly after the deal fell through.

Yes, this is all based on conjecture and coincidence. Which is of course why Blizzard hasn't been slapped with IP violations. Its all *nudge nudge *wink wink to be sure, but its plain to see.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes. After it fell through.
Step 1) Arrangement to make games based on GW IP.
Step 2) arrangement fell through.
Step 3) Recycle assets into what is today known as Warcraft and Starcraft.

See attached how the original starcraft assets looked like in 1996
I'm not sure what makes you think that the marine sprite from the 1998 modified warcraft 2 release is a salvaged asset from a pre 1994 warcraft 1 project. And if it's nids/zerg then see the picture of old nids on page 1 of this thread.

Starcraft actually got called out as Warcraft in space back in the day in its original preview material, hence the long running joke of space orcs that show up in various miscellaneous things or any number of obscure little references to the past. By the time Starcraft was released though, Warcraft had had two separate games under it as a franchise and claiming they somehow planned it to be a 40k game all along four years before the release of Warcraft, which, considering 40k was in essence still a lot more obscure during that time is hilarious. Also the fact that beyond 'green orcs' and humans opposing them, there's not actually a lot that is similar beyond the broad strokes of even the original Warcraft game.

A.T. wrote:
Your proposed timeline doesn't track out - development on Starcraft wasn't started until after Warcraft was finished and published, which would have been after any arrangement with GW had already fallen through.

Incorrect. Blizzard has made several official statements that they where working on a necromunda game with GW at the time. Here’s an article: https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2014/9/23/6833039/blizzard-canceled-unreleased-games

Also it might be worth mentioning that space marines back in 1st Ed was quite different from the current ones. They where mind scrubbed criminals back then. The lore for the marines in Starcraft is that they are mind scrubbed, and mostly criminals as well. There’s a lot of lore overlap between the two games if you look at it with the proper time context. Blizzard has generally denied all such comparisons though.

 Nerak wrote:
Incorrect. Blizzard has made several official statements that they where working on a necromunda game with GW at the time.

Necromunda came out a year after the first warcraft.

 Nerak wrote:
so it might be worth mentioning that space marines back in 1st Ed was quite different from the current ones. They where mind scrubbed criminals back then. The lore for the marines in Starcraft is that they are mind scrubbed, and mostly criminals as well. There’s a lot of lore overlap between the two games if you look at it with the proper time context.

2nd edition 40k came out in 1993, a year before the first warcraft.

Yeah. None of that disproves a connection. It actually confirms there is a connection.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah. None of that disproves a connection. It actually confirms there is a connection.

The only way that makes any kind of chronological sense would be if the following happened -
1993/94 - GW licence warhammer fantasy, pull the licence, the assets get used for warcraft
1995/96 - GW licence necromunda, pull the licence, the assets for hive gangs somehow end up as spacecraft...
2000/01 - Blizzard invent time travel and steal the design for the 3rd edition ravener

 Nerak wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Your proposed timeline doesn't track out - development on Starcraft wasn't started until after Warcraft was finished and published, which would have been after any arrangement with GW had already fallen through.

Incorrect. Blizzard has made several official statements that they where working on a necromunda game with GW at the time. Here’s an article: https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2014/9/23/6833039/blizzard-canceled-unreleased-games

Also it might be worth mentioning that space marines back in 1st Ed was quite different from the current ones. They where mind scrubbed criminals back then. The lore for the marines in Starcraft is that they are mind scrubbed, and mostly criminals as well. There’s a lot of lore overlap between the two games if you look at it with the proper time context. Blizzard has generally denied all such comparisons though.

The polygon article itself has Blizzard saying 'loosely based on Necromunda because they were playing it in the office' and not because they were actually making a Necromunda game. Also said Necromunda game was canceled in favor of World of Warcraft, which was released in 2005, so its not even fitting the proposed timeline.

Things can be in development before they're known about to the greater public, so the idea of Blizzard working on a game that GW hadn't released yet isn't out of the question.

The guys who made the more recent Space Hulk game had Genestealer Cultists in it, and were working on it before GW reintroduced GSC to the tabletop. Same as Creative Assembly having Cathay before GW releases them in The Old World.

 LordofHats wrote:
FyreSlayers.

I think you mean Fyrslyrs.

Wait did they seriously put a second Y in there? I'd like to be blind now please. Words aren't worth it anymore XD

It's a running gag. Try to replace as many vowels as possible with 'Y' in any Fyrslyr unit, to the point of making them unpronounceable.

You end up with Hyrthgyrd and Byrzyrkyrs and stuff like that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Blizzard copies from a lot of different sources. That doesn't excuse GW however...

Doesn't the hydralisk have elements from some 2nd ed 40k and Epic nids? Pretty sure those predate SC.

Cosmic Schwung wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Blizzard copies from a lot of different sources. That doesn't excuse GW however...

Doesn't the hydralisk have elements from some 2nd ed 40k and Epic nids? Pretty sure those predate SC.

Epic 40k had a Trygon that was a snake like monster with 4 claws and the multiple armour plates on the head, not dissimilar to the Ravener that came later.

2nd edition and Epic 40k Tyranids had a very broad range of aesthetics, it was 3rd edition that homogenised them into the aesthetic we have now.

Cosmic Schwung wrote:


Doesn't the hydralisk have elements from some 2nd ed 40k and Epic nids? Pretty sure those predate SC.

2nd Edition Tyranids were all over the place in design. So there might be an element or two on the Hydralisk that resembles something on one of the Tyranids of the era. But finding comparison points sort of gets down to the "they both have teeth" level of things. And the appropriate response to that is, "Yeah, so?"

Eumerin wrote:

Cosmic Schwung wrote:


Doesn't the hydralisk have elements from some 2nd ed 40k and Epic nids? Pretty sure those predate SC.

2nd Edition Tyranids were all over the place in design. So there might be an element or two on the Hydralisk that resembles something on one of the Tyranids of the era. But finding comparison points sort of gets down to the "they both have teeth" level of things. And the appropriate response to that is, "Yeah, so?"

Point is, what's the hydralisk bring new to the table that wasn't already there? The blade arms came from hormagaunts, ripper swarms were already snake like, and raveners were basically scaled down trygons. There's the big armoured head, but everyone was ripping off the alien queen.

Cosmic Schwung wrote:
There's the big armoured head, but everyone was ripping off the alien queen.

Yeah, as someone who had an interested in Tyranids in 2nd edition and Epic, when 3rd edition came out and I wasn't all that familiar with Starcraft I just assumed GW had decided to homogenise some of the existing designs, rip off Alien for the head design and rip off Starship Troopers for the "Space Bugs!" theme. The Hive Tyrant back then looked very similar to the Alien queen.

Not saying GW didn't rip off Starcraft, just mentioning there were a lot of things going around back then. The 2nd edition plastic Tyranid Warriors looked almost out of place in the Tyranid army because their aesthetic didn't really match much else that was around at the time. The general 3rd edition (post Starcraft) Tyranid head design looks a lot closer to the 2nd edition (pre Starcraft) Termagants or metal Warriors (not the plastic ones in the previous picture), and snake type Tyranids were hardly a new idea.

I think he's really saying that the Hydralisk ripped off the alien queen. I.E. he's still insisting that the Hydralisk is a Tyranid rip-off, but will graciously allow that the head came from a non-GW source.

/rolleyes

Though it reminds me more of the head plate on one of the dinosaur species that are related to the Triceratops (a specific one that had a narrow head plate compared to its cousins), though unfortunately I can't remember the specific species off the top of my head.

Eumerin wrote:
I think he's really saying that the Hydralisk ripped off the alien queen. I.E. he's still insisting that the Hydralisk is a Tyranid rip-off, but will graciously allow that the head came from a non-GW source.

/rolleyes

Nah, I think suggestions that SC ripped of 40K are as daft as the reverse. Lots of elements they use have been covered by early sources, or are generic. I just found that image particularly egregious because it skipped a bunch of history.

Cosmic Schwung wrote:

Eumerin wrote:
I think he's really saying that the Hydralisk ripped off the alien queen. I.E. he's still insisting that the Hydralisk is a Tyranid rip-off, but will graciously allow that the head came from a non-GW source.

/rolleyes

Nah, I think suggestions that SC ripped of 40K are as daft as the reverse. Lots of elements they use have been covered by early sources, or are generic. I just found that image particularly egregious because it skipped a bunch of history.

I find the picture egregious (or at least misleading) because their pre-Starcraft Tyranids aren't actually a good representation of what Tyranids looked like in the years immediately before Starcraft released (2nd edition 40k), it's more representative of the rogue trader era. The rogue trader era warriors and tyranid swarm in that picture looked super derpy and the aesthetic had already changed significantly by the end of 2nd edition.

If you look at the Termagants, the Warriors, Rippers, the Hive Tyrant, the Hormagaunts, etc from back in 2nd edition in the 1997 Citadel Annual (i.e. predating Starcraft) then the 3rd edition Tyranids look like more of a natural progression of homogenisation of existing aesthetics + integration of the triangular armoured head from the Alien queen.

I actually forgot about the original snake like Rippers from 2nd edition that predate Starcraft, which kinda highlights how misleading that image is.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1997usb40k/c1997usb40kp0120-00.htm

http://www.modernsynthesist.com/2012/02/tyranid-archive-2nd-generation.html

Again, not saying GW didn't maybe rip off ideas from Starcraft, just that concepts were already there. GW have ripped off other sources much more blatantly than that, lol.

Those aren't Rogue Trader Tyranids. The Rogue Trader Tyranid looks somewhat similar to a very big Termagent, and only a handful of the models exist. The only other Tyrannid life form in the Rogue Trader rules was the Zoat (Genestealers are in Rogue Trader, but weren't linked to Tyranids until later).

The Tyranid Warrior shown in the picture is the model introduced in Advanced Space Crusade. My very vague recollection is that it got White Dwarf rules not long afterwards, and a Codex shortly after that.

Okay, my knowledge of the timing back then isn't great as I didn't start Warhammer until the mid 90's and Warhammer 40k until the late 90's, haha, I said "rogue trader era" to mean roughly around that period of time (late 80's to early 90's and before 2nd edition).

But yeah, the Tyranids that immediately predate Starcraft are the ones from the link in my previous post rather than the ones used in the Starcraft comparison image...

http://www.modernsynthesist.com/2012/02/tyranid-archive-2nd-generation.html

The Rogue Trader Tyranid can be seen here -

https://auretioustaak.wordpress.com/category/rogue-trader-tyranids/

Second post. The Tyranid sketch from Rogue Trader is on the first page, while the second page has an *extremely rare* (the post explains just how insanely rare this figure is) painted Rogue Trader-era Tyranid model.


Advanced Space Crusade was released in 1990. The plastic Tyranid Warriors from left side of the Hydralisk image first appeared in that game. They also reappeared in Tyranid Attack, which came out three years later. And according to your link, the first Tyranid Codex was released in 1995.

Incidentally, those plastic Tyranid Warriors are shown in one of the pictures halfway down the page in your link. While I don't remember exactly how things worked out, based on the link you provided I suspect that the plastic sprue from the two earlier board games - which had three warriors on it - was released along with the Tyranid Codex, and the metal Tyranid warriors were released at the same time to provide more customization options. Thus, they were roughly concurrent. The plastic models were released earlier for the board games, but the metal ones were supposed to represent the same basic creature.

The inset swarm image is a group of squigs, which is why they look so goofy. When the Tyranid codex was released, it was "revealed" that squigs were originally a Tyranid creation that ended up being adopted by the Orks after early battles with hive fleets, and they quickly spread through Ork society.

Yeah, I'm not sure on the exact timeline. Flicking through the old Annuals, it seems most the metal 2nd edition Tyranids came out in 1995 alongside the codex, definitely the newer metal Warriors and snake-like Rippers were around before Starcraft.

When you look at the Tyranids of the mid 90's there's less of a leap to the post-Starcraft Tyranids than is suggested by the image HBMC posted, which makes it falsely appear like GW heavily modified the Tyranids to match SC.