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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 19:46:03
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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How is that evidence that they don't stack? The rule for cover talks about specific terrain pieces, which indicates that if there's a way to have 2 pieces give the benefit of cover they would stack. There would need to be a rule that specifically says that bonuses of the same type in general don't stack, or a rule specifically stating that cover bonuses don't stack. What you quoted doesn't match up with either of those requirements.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 19:55:13
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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You need to show you can stack ambiguous means you have no permission to do so as the default is you can't do something unless a rule gives you permission.
Try reading the full quote two back
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 19:55:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 19:56:16
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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Isn't it just common sense? The rule doesn't say +1 to save, it says gains light cover. Light cover is a +1 to your save. Having access to light cover a million times is still only light cover, which is still only +1
That's my interpretation anyway. I'm not sure if it even needs to be clarified
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 19:56:50
Subject: Re:Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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MODIFYING CHARACTERISTICS
Many rules modify the characteristics of models and weapons.
All modifiers to a characteristic are cumulative; you must
apply division modifiers before applying multiplication
modifiers, and before applying addition and then subtraction
modifiers.
This shows that modifiers can stack, and are cumulative. Now, please show that cover bonuses explicitly state they do not stack.
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Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 19:59:15
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Their is no question that modifiers can stack its not relevant modifiers can
The question is can light cover stack
Yes light cover leads to a modifier and yes if light cover can stack the modifiers would therefore stack
Noone has shown a rule stateing light cover can stack none of the clarification makes reference to stacking.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/11 20:03:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:01:35
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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U02dah4 wrote:Their is no question that modifiers can stack its not relevant modifiers can
The question is can light cover stack
Yes light cover leads to a modifier and yes if light cover can stack the modifiers would therefore stack
Noone has shown a rule stateing light cover can stack none of the clarification makes reference to stacking.
We don't need an explicit rule stating light cover can stack, since we have the general rule that modifiers can stack. What we NEED for clarity is something stating the benefits of cover DON'T stack. This isn't a permissive ruleset issue, since we have permission to stack. We need limits on what we can or cannot stack.
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Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:01:38
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:03:42
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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Cynista wrote:Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
Well, technically, we're discussing the benefit of light cover, and whether or not that stacks, because a model could have the benefit of light cover by being in light cover, and also the benefit of light cover by having the Stealth special rule.
Do they stack? I lean toward "no," but I'm looking for something in the rules that says as much.
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Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:03:58
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cynista wrote:Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
If it stacks, then it's +1 for each one stacking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:04:02
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Octopoid wrote:U02dah4 wrote:Their is no question that modifiers can stack its not relevant modifiers can
The question is can light cover stack
Yes light cover leads to a modifier and yes if light cover can stack the modifiers would therefore stack
Noone has shown a rule stateing light cover can stack none of the clarification makes reference to stacking.
We don't need an explicit rule stating light cover can stack, since we have the general rule that modifiers can stack. What we NEED for clarity is something stating the benefits of cover DON'T stack. This isn't a permissive ruleset issue, since we have permission to stack. We need limits on what we can or cannot stack.
Light cover is not a modifier it is therefore not granted permission to stack by that rule
Light cover causes a modifier their is a difference
You have not shown permission to stack so we do not need a rule stateing cover doesnt stack until you produce one
Automatically Appended Next Post:
doctortom wrote:Cynista wrote:Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
If it stacks, then it's +1 for each one stacking.
Agreed. However you have to prove the if. Should you not do so he is correct and no matter how many instances you benefit once
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/11 20:08:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:07:52
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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doctortom wrote:Cynista wrote:Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
If it stacks, then it's +1 for each one stacking.
But why? My interpretation is that no amount of light cover can infer a greater benefit than is stated in the light cover rule. Because you're still only gaining light cover, regardless of how many times you have gained it. I know it's semantics, but isn't that the point
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:09:43
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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You are correct unless they prove it can stack
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:12:24
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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Cynista wrote: doctortom wrote:Cynista wrote:Let's assume light cover does stack for the sake of argument. It's still just light cover though, right? And Light cover is, explicitly, +1 to armour saves.
If it stacks, then it's +1 for each one stacking.
But why? My interpretation is that no amount of light cover can infer a greater benefit than is stated in the light cover rule. Because you're still only gaining light cover, regardless of how many times you have gained it. I know it's semantics, but isn't that the point
That's kind of what the discussion is about. Being in Light Cover (meaning your model is located within terrain designated as Light Cover) grants a +1 bonus to armour saves. Having the Stealth special rule grants the benefit of being in Light Cover, which is a +1 bonus to armour saves. I can see interpretations either way; either they're two modifiers from two different rules, and thus they stack, or they're not - they just both grant the condition "in Light Cover" - and thus do not.
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Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:45:45
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Light cover does not modify the save characteristic, so the “modifying characteristics” rule does not apply. Light cover provides a +1 to save rolls. The distinction is important since modifying the save characteristic leads to unintended consequences. The original rules for Bladeguard Veterans were Errata’d because of this.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 20:48:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 20:50:11
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle
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Aash wrote:Light cover does not modify the save characteristic, so the “modifying characteristics” rule does not apply. Light cover provides a +1 to save rolls. The distinction is important since modifying the save characteristic leads to unintended consequences. The original rules for Bladeguard Veterans were Errata’d because of this.
Fair point.
So, it's a bonus to a roll for being in Light Cover. Also a bonus to a roll for having Stealth, which treats you as in Light Cover. Do we have rules for bonuses stacking?
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Death Guard - "The Rotmongers"
Chaos Space Marines - "The Sin-Eaters"
Dark Angels - "Nemeses Errant"
Deathwatch |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 21:10:40
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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We have rules that some don't such as FNP their is no blanket ruling for all bonuses
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/11 21:11:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 21:11:42
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There's a specific rule saying you can't stack FNP's though, that you can only use one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 21:12:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 21:17:25
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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I suppose I just thought of that as the exception to the general rule that they don't stack unless a rule tells you that they do. Either way the accurate answer is theirs no blanket ruling
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/11 22:06:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/11 23:50:46
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Confessor Of Sins
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You would think a unit either receives the Benefits of Cover or doesn't regardless of the number of ways it might be gaining that advantage. A true or false test rather than a how many times test.
This appears to be a rule writing oversight on GW's part in the part of the Stealthy rule. Most such rules stipulate the unit gains the benefit of cover when not in terrain. Stealthy's failure to state that leads to the question of whether they get the benefits twice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/12 15:32:17
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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Its not really a hard thing to figure out.
Does this unit benefit from light cover? Yes
What does light cover grant? +1 save
The unit can have Light cover 3-99 times, but only gets +1 to save.
Modifiers stack, light cover does not. You cant say I have 10 light covers for +10 to save.
You can say, I benefit from light cover 10 times so I get the benefit of light cover for +1 save.
If you get other sources of +1 to your saving throw (such as the Take Cover stratagem) or various psychic buffs, they stack since they are different.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 03:49:51
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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Eihnlazer wrote:Its not really a hard thing to figure out.
Does this unit benefit from light cover? Yes
What does light cover grant? +1 save
The unit can have Light cover 3-99 times, but only gets +1 to save.
Modifiers stack, light cover does not. You cant say I have 10 light covers for +10 to save.
You can say, I benefit from light cover 10 times so I get the benefit of light cover for +1 save.
If you get other sources of +1 to your saving throw (such as the Take Cover stratagem) or various psychic buffs, they stack since they are different.
That's an entirely too simplistic view and not consistant with the rules.
Let's take an example of Ruins (area terrain, scalable, breachable, light cover, defensible, and obscuring), and barricades (obstacles, defence line, light cover, heavy cover, defensible, unstable position, and difficult ground).
On page 260 of BRB, we have the dot point "Some models can gain the benefits of cover from some terrain features".
Ok, so we have two types of terrain in our example. For area terrain Infantry models receive the benefits of cover if they are in it. For obstacles infantry receive the benefits of cover while within 3" (with some exceptions).
For this discussion I am assuming the model meets the eligibility requirements from both the ruins and the barricade.
So, an enemy unit shoots at your model and we determine what effects the terrain has. Let us check first the barricades, so the only one that affects the model is light cover, so "When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature (the barricades), add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack". Ok, awesome, we add +1. Now, let us check what the ruins do for us. So they are obscuring, but we are inside it, so we don't get the benefit from that. They are also light cover, so "When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature (the ruins), add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack". Ok, awesome, we add +1.
Now we have 2 instances of +1 to our saving throw for a net +2 to our armour save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 09:49:46
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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No you have to sources of light cover and light cover gives +1 no matter how many sources
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 12:01:13
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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U02dah4 wrote:No you have to sources of light cover and light cover gives +1 no matter how many sources
Back up your claim. I walked through and quoted the rules explaining how you are permitted to get +2 to your armour save if you are benefiting from cover from two different terrain pieces. Just saying "No" is lazy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 12:13:45
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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You have only shown that modifiers can stack and light cover can be received from multiple sources you have shown no rule stateing that light cover can stack and until you do the default is you can't do something unless a rule gives you permission to do so
Everything you wrote is based on the assumption it can stack and unless you provide a quote showing that the assumption is true your argument is wrong
No is lazy but until you address the only salient point there is no question to answer and you cannot address that point because their is no such rule
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/13 12:17:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 13:53:59
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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You have only shown that modifiers can stack and light cover can be received from multiple sources you have shown no rule stateing that light cover can stack and until you do the default is you can't do something unless a rule gives you permission to do so
Right, and the rules give you permission to add +1 to your saving throw for being within 3" of an Obstacle that offers Light Cover, and also to add +1 to your saving throw for being within a piece of Area Terrain that offers Light Cover. There are no rules that tell you not to follow the instructions in either case in these circumstances so you do not.
In the same way that we do not need an explicit rule to tell us that a model that Advanced and is firing an Assault weapon at a target benefitting from Dense cover suffers a -2 penalty to Hit(although only -1 of that may apply). There is not a rule that tells us to "stack" those two modifiers and yet, because of what the actual rules are we must.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 18:07:47
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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No the rules for obstacles and the rules for area terrain give you light cover
having light cover gives you +1 to the saving throw
No where does it say light cover can stack
The reason dense cover and assault -1 to hit stack (with final hit capped at +-1) is because their is an explicit rule that covers hit roll stacking - which is what you need - you quote that you don't need an explicit rule then utilise a specific rule lol (pg18 core rules hit roll subheading)
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/03/13 18:20:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 22:43:25
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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U02dah4 wrote:You have only shown that modifiers can stack and light cover can be received from multiple sources you have shown no rule stateing that light cover can stack and until you do the default is you can't do something unless a rule gives you permission to do so
Everything you wrote is based on the assumption it can stack and unless you provide a quote showing that the assumption is true your argument is wrong
No is lazy but until you address the only salient point there is no question to answer and you cannot address that point because their is no such rule
No, I am following what is written in the permissive ruleset as I outline in my previous post. Let me spell it out.
Your normal saving throw is d6.
Lets start with this one.
"When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature (the barricades), add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack"
The barricades tell you to add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack. So your saving throw becomes d6 + 1
"When an attack made with a ranged weapon wounds a model that is receiving the benefits of cover from this terrain feature (the ruins), add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack"
Then you have the ruins, which also tell you to add 1 to the saving throw made against that attack. So your saving throw becomes d6 + 1 + 1
The rules have granted the permission. You insist they don't stack, but you have failed to quote any such restriction.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 23:26:37
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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The baricades and terrain tell you that you benefit from cover and according to the light cover rule a unit benefitting from light cover gives you +1
the barricades explicitly do not say they give you +1sv that is a lie if they said that it would stack they do not they say they give you the benefits of cover
unless you show otherwise with a rule stateing that it can stack- it does not matter how many sources of cover you have when you resolve the saving throw you apply the light cover rule which gives you +1sv not +1sv per source of cover
Your skipping steps to ignore the raw and make your answer work which only proves your answer wrong and again have not addressed the salient point i have quoted the restriction repeatedly- no rule gives you permission to do it so you can't do it.
Your inability to quote a rule giving you permission is proof the rule does not exist.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/03/13 23:37:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/13 23:48:01
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Dakka Veteran
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U02dah4 wrote:The baricades and terrain tell you that you benefit from cover and according to the light cover rule a unit benefitting from light cover gives you +1
the barricades explicitly do not say they give you +1sv that is a lie if they said that it would stack they do not they say they give you the benefits of cover
unless you show otherwise with a rule stateing that it can stack- it does not matter how many sources of cover you have when you resolve the saving throw you apply the light cover rule which gives you +1sv not +1sv per source of cover
Your skipping steps to ignore the raw and make your answer work which only proves your answer wrong and again have not addressed the salient point i have quoted the restriction repeatedly- no rule gives you permission to do it so you can't do it.
Your inability to quote a rule giving you permission is proof the rule does not exist.
Citation needed. Which steps to you think I'm ignoring? Here is my initial explainer post with rule quotes so you can enlighten the rest of us.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/03/14 00:02:53
Subject: Can you get the benefits of light cover twice ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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The part your skipping is when you outright LIE and state that "barricades tell you to add 1 to the saving throw" they explicitly do not they tell you that they tell you "receive the benefits of cover"
I cannot provide a citation stateing that there is no rule giving you permission to stack cover saves as that would be proving a negative which is impossible.
I however do not need to because the absence of such a citation provided by you is proof that you are wrong
You cannot do something you don't have permission to do and no citation is needed for that - it is the premise that all games work under
so provide a direct citation giving you permission to stack cover or anything else you say is redundant and just proves you wrong
Entertainingly your link takes you to a very nice description of how it works
" Eihnlazer wrote:
Its not really a hard thing to figure out.
Does this unit benefit from light cover? Yes
What does light cover grant? +1 save
The unit can have Light cover 3-99 times, but only gets +1 to save.
Modifiers stack, light cover does not. You cant say I have 10 light covers for +10 to save.
You can say, I benefit from light cover 10 times so I get the benefit of light cover for +1 save.
If you get other sources of +1 to your saving throw (such as the Take Cover stratagem) or various psychic buffs, they stack since they are different."
no rule you have quoted contradicts this explanation
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/03/14 00:28:15
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