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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





These kind of books are an horrible idea.
My wallet will cast his big no vote.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Threads like this give me some hope that there is a point past which even a very easy-going frog cannot be boiled before it starts kicking up a fuss. One of the best things that could happen to GW would be is if these books end up as huge flops and it causes them to reconsider this "ever more rules, for ever more money" model.
   
Made in au
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







If the book does end up selling poorly, I can just picture GW taking that as "nobody cares about these factions" as opposed to "our customers don't care for this low-value product".

Wouldn't stop me from not buying it, even if it did have rules for an army I play.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hell no, someone has to make a stand on this. The first one is way too expensive for such a small amount of buff. I don't like the direction it pushes things and bringing back formations by any other name isn't a practice I condone.

This needs to stop, the burn and churn of op books to print money is a blight to the game itself and leads to a self fulfilling prophecy of needing new editions at break neck speeds because they are literally burning out the edition themselves with all the rules bloat.

The best thing I didn't buy, was most of the PA books. Only one I got was for the Guard and I at least got a few games in with it. They've actually stopped me from buying a new codex every time it drops, now I just get it if I have plans on using the army next. Which I don't think is the feeling they want to give people.
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




Campaign books should probably be narrative play only stuff plus fluff but they understandably want to sell as many as they can and organised play players will rightly feel a bit ripped off.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

I bought it. I play Drukhari, and two of my friends play AdMech and Death Guard, so there is a fair amount of overlap. I'm really interested in the Crusade stuff, and how the three player battles work.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues
Cult of Veiled Malice

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Thanks for reminding me. Love a bit of new campaign fluff.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Made in gb
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy





If it had been purely 95 pages of 40% fluff and 60% cool narrative campaign missions, mechanics and crusade rules (also cities of death terrain rules, planet strike and so on) then I would of leapt for it.

But as the book stands, looking at the contents page its a hard pass from me and about 90% plus of my local hobby group.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Warp Spider




Iceland

PenitentJake wrote:
People are either going to have to get used to content being release by campaign books, or be resigned to the fact that GW has to blow up the entire game with an edition reset.


The edition resets are here to stay and both AoS and 40k seem to have the three year cycle set in stone at this point. So I'd rather just live with that fact(and get cool starter minis) than having the edition reset AND 10-15 campaign books per edition. Especially when they are not going to be providing digital releases anymore.

To OP: I will not be buying the Book of Rust. It's too expensive for what we get.

Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons || Tyranids | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Someone else has already said it and I fully agree, I won't pay for printed material from GW. An edition or so ago I fell for it and bought a supplement (it had Kharne on the cover) and didn't even get one game in with it before it became obsolete.
If they insist on releasing this sort of thing couldn't they just put it in White Dwarf, which would slightly justify buying that.

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





A big no from me.

My two main 40k armies are Death Guard and Ad Mech, so you'd think this would be an easy buy for me, but I will not support this day 1 DLC style of rule splitting that GW is trying. Its too expensive for what it is, the matched play rules here should instead be in the codexs and I don't care about the lore/narrative stuff.

I've seen too many of my 40k books invalidated within a year lately to buy anymore of these from GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 22:24:04


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






So, I actually gave the book a good read (watched a preview video), and gave it careful consideration whether I want it, ignoring the entire implication of how and when it released.

So what's in it?

- A large amount of fluff in a similar quality as the previous campaigns. Meaning below novel, above codex quality. About 40 pages that are nice to have but not that important to me
- Actual campaign rules! And not just some wishy-washy stuff where they tell you to do whatever feels right, some actual help, resources and a definition of a Campaign Master role. 8 pages of interest
- Unique campaign loot requisitions. This is cool if you are playing this campaign with your crusade force, allowing you to opt into gear, relics and other things you will get no were else. Cool idea for more "your guys" feel. 5 pages of interest.
- Legendary Missions. These are some seriously creative and interesting missions for narrative play, better than most of the narrative missions GW has done so far. My main criticism of those is that they only put three of those in the book. 3 Missions for an entire campaign? Come on. 6 pages of interest.
- A bunch of rules of six different factions. I am lucky enough to play one of them, so I can revolve an entire army around poxwalkers. Yay? 4 pages of interest.
- Death Guard specific crusade rules. Seriously, what are those doing in this book? I guess 2 pages of interest.

So a total of 19 pages of cool narrative stuff in the narrative campaign book, and 6 pages of optional add-on to my death guard codex which is still lost in customs, for a total of 25 pages or valuable, unique content for me.
Just for comparison, the 2020 tournament rules booklet has 27 pages of unique content and has the entire basic rulebook in neat A5 format included.

The book just tries to do too many things at once and ends up doing none of them right.
If the book dropped the whole "army rules" section and was just more of the campaign stuff, I'd totally have bought it at full price. If it were a cheaper book like the crusade or tournament mission packs, I also might have bought it. If it gave multiple armies of renown/supplements for each of the factions, it might be worth buying. I'm not too sure how much content a lesser supplement like salamanders or imperial fists has, but I'd wager it's more than 3-4 pages, and they are half the price.
But as it is, there is just too little worthwhile content for too much money, and the whole "day one DLC" feel doesn't exactly help it.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/03/23 11:31:58


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






PenitentJake wrote:
People are either going to have to get used to content being release by campaign books, or be resigned to the fact that GW has to blow up the entire game with an edition reset.

I mean, there's literally nothing to indicate that it's an either/or thing at the moment.

I've not bought any books bar the main rulebook since the advent of 9th – there's been no opportunity to use them, so I'm taking advantage of the game being in a sort of weird between-8th-and-9th limbo to catch up on my painting. Once I've something approaching got a full army of something painted and actually playing games is back on the cards where I live, then I'll probably pick up the relevant Codex but I can't be arsed with all the rules-stacked-on-top-of rules stuff; didn't bother with Vigilus or PA, and I won't be bothering with these either.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




PenitentJake wrote:
People are either going to have to get used to content being release by campaign books, or be resigned to the fact that GW has to blow up the entire game with an edition reset.


What? GW releasing campaign books and non-Codex content has absolutely no bearing on whether we get a new edition or not. If you genuinely think buying these books will somehow change GW's approach to edition
churn I have a bridge you might be interested in.

As for buying the Charadon book, it's a hell no from me. I have a DE army and it annoys me no end they put extra DE content in a book released the same day as the Codex. Yes, yes, I know the apologists will be quick to point out this is because the release schedule is messed up. It still wouldn't be OK to do it within a few months of a Codex being released. The value proposition in this book is so tiny for me there's just no way to justify it. I'd much rather see GW do a bigger supplement with more material for every army. Then I might consider it as a one-off with all the content in one place. Chasing this endless train of tiny pieces of content just doesn't seem worth anyone's time.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






You really shouldn't be buying it for matched play DE content, no matter what. There are literally three pages of content for you in it.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy





 Jidmah wrote:
You really shouldn't be buying it for matched play DE content, no matter what. There are literally three pages of content for you in it.


Agreed! I wish they add a feature on the app you can pay like... £2 for the 4 pages of Deldar rules from the book separate.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
You really shouldn't be buying it for matched play DE content, no matter what. There are literally three pages of content for you in it.


Agreed! I wish they add a feature on the app you can pay like... £2 for the 4 pages of Deldar rules from the book separate.


Why are you promoting this "eaistic" behaviour and encouraging them to double down on it with such suggestions?


For me, a HARD no.

And overall, GW shouldn't be surpised that there will be more and more blackflags beeing hoisted.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slipspace wrote:
As for buying the Charadon book, it's a hell no from me. I have a DE army and it annoys me no end they put extra DE content in a book released the same day as the Codex. Yes, yes, I know the apologists will be quick to point out this is because the release schedule is messed up. It still wouldn't be OK to do it within a few months of a Codex being released. The value proposition in this book is so tiny for me there's just no way to justify it. I'd much rather see GW do a bigger supplement with more material for every army. Then I might consider it as a one-off with all the content in one place. Chasing this endless train of tiny pieces of content just doesn't seem worth anyone's time.


I think its both so soon and so little.

I can imagine in 18 months, when the DE book and the meta has grown stale, it might be interesting to come up with more rules for mono-Wych Cult (and Covens etc) that take into account how those factions should operate in the fluff and also the limitations of only using those specific models. A bit like what the Armies of Renown are I guess trying to be.

But instead its just 2 pages of bloat. You might use the warlord traits and relics to make a better Succubus (maybe) and you might use a few of the stratagems. But that's it. Ignoring the fact it would be weird for Strife to have 4 warlord traits, relics and a seperate page of stratagems while the other get nothing, this clearly should have been in the DE book, or just not existed.

Obviously PA must have sold enough - or, possibly more likely, they think it cultivated an environment where people bought armies. I can see the idea of "I like the idea of Metalica, I like the paint scheme, and they get a page of unique stratagems. I'm in, where do I buy all the Ad Mech". Which will help GW's bottom line, regardless of whether people actually buy Charadon or not.

But yeah, hard to see people buying it for the actual content.
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

Nope. Don't trust GW to write a good campaign story - been burned too many times - and there's not enough rules content to serve as insurance. For $60, it's not worth the risk.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






PA had vastly more than just 3-4 pages per army though.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Somerdale, NJ, USA

I personally couldn't stand the Vigilus detachments and refused to use them.

This book is along the same vein: more BS rules that only give unfair bonuses to certain armies, no thanks.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
PA had vastly more than just 3-4 pages per army though.


I guess some factions got a lot of stuff. Others not so much.
   
Made in ca
Nimble Skeleton Charioteer





Absolutely, I love campaign books. I'm not picking them up for the rules though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 12:11:58


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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
PA had vastly more than just 3-4 pages per army though.


I guess some factions got a lot of stuff. Others not so much.


Which ones outside of necrons didn't?

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
Which ones outside of necrons didn't?


I think you know the ones I'm going to flag.

Dark Eldar got a selection of custom traits, the vast majority of which were obviously inferior to fixed obsessions - even before you lost faction locked warlord traits/relics/stratagems.
GSC got 1 psychic spell per faction, custom traits of questionable utility (which also barred you from said psychic abilities) and a two pages of stratagems (some of which were auto-include strong, but still.)

Then in the mixed tier you had something like Tyranids, which in page count probably did okay:
1 Page Relics
2 Pages of Stratagems
2 Pages of Custom Traits
2 Pages of Adapted Physiology
1 Page Faction Psychic Powers.

But a lot of it is just sort of *there*. A choice but not an especially compelling or satisfying one.

Then you have say Grey Knights who got a whole new ability.

(Its been said, but if non-Marine factions benefited from Successor Rules, a lot of these custom factions would be a lot more interesting.)
   
Made in gb
Maniacal Gibbering Madboy





Not Online!!! wrote:
Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
You really shouldn't be buying it for matched play DE content, no matter what. There are literally three pages of content for you in it.


Agreed! I wish they add a feature on the app you can pay like... £2 for the 4 pages of Deldar rules from the book separate.


Why are you promoting this "eaistic" behaviour and encouraging them to double down on it with such suggestions?


For me, a HARD no.

And overall, GW shouldn't be surpised that there will be more and more blackflags beeing hoisted.


What on earth does eaistic even mean?? And how on earth am I encouraging GW with my suggestion? They wont read it, nor would they pay it any attention. And by all means black flagging GW books is fine by me, I got burnt hard on Vigilus for my CSM and my Nids in PA, but its also nice to have more options for rule access like most other games do.

And it would be a nice option, hell Privateer Press used to have such an option in their app where I could buy certain army/unit rules out of a whole tome for a cheaper than cup of coffee price. It's a fine OPTION, and I stress an OPTION. I'm not promoting GW continue doing the practice in these books like PA, but rather make the army specific rules available seperate from the whole book.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Which ones outside of necrons didn't?


I think you know the ones I'm going to flag.

Dark Eldar got a selection of custom traits, the vast majority of which were obviously inferior to fixed obsessions - even before you lost faction locked warlord traits/relics/stratagems.
GSC got 1 psychic spell per faction, custom traits of questionable utility (which also barred you from said psychic abilities) and a two pages of stratagems (some of which were auto-include strong, but still.)

Ok, I was not aware of both DE and GSC, as we had no one playing them in our group at that time.

Then in the mixed tier you had something like Tyranids, which in page count probably did okay:
1 Page Relics
2 Pages of Stratagems
2 Pages of Custom Traits
2 Pages of Adapted Physiology
1 Page Faction Psychic Powers.

This is what most non-marine factions got, which was quite a good deal in my opinion. And totally worth buying a book to me, as I have used both WotS and SotB in every single game after they were released. Charadon is a completely different beast, you get 3-4 situational pages at best which you can only use under very specific circumstances.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 13:29:25


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





@ Gir Spirit Bane: I think they meant EA-istic, as in "Like EA- the video game dudes"

@jidmah: Deathwatch and Harlies got their PA via WD; the Harlie update was good- some may even say it went too far given Harlie performance right now. Sisters got a unit (Daemonifuge) and that's it.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





PenitentJake wrote:
@ Gir Spirit Bane: I think they meant EA-istic, as in "Like EA- the video game dudes"

@jidmah: Deathwatch and Harlies got their PA via WD; the Harlie update was good- some may even say it went too far given Harlie performance right now. Sisters got a unit (Daemonifuge) and that's it.


Yes, this, piecemeal separate microtransactions and cut content for later resale....


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the key point here is the way they cravenly pushed a small amount of matched play content into what was otherwise a narrative campaign book, to try to get matched play players to shell out for it when they otherwise wouldn't. If they had just released a campaign book I doubt they'd be getting the same negative reactions, even if a lot of us still probably wouldn't have bought it. Even if they had done the exact same thing but made clear that the "Armies of Renown" were not valid in matched play, it wouldn't have got the same reaction.

It's a really terrible look to be releasing "rules supplements" as day-1 DLC for $60 - or even pre-LC before they codex is even out - and it's an even worse look to do it before lots of other factions have codexes at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 15:42:43


 
   
 
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