Switch Theme:

Are you planning on picking up the Charadon books?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in dk
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






I'll borrow them to read and if I like them enough to think the pricing is fair and none of the matched play content features in a GT-winning list in the first 3 months of the book being out then I'll buy. I have been waiting for a piece of 40k writing that I can feel good supporting, it has been 6 years since I last bought anything other than the 9th rulebook (although the errata...). I don't want to support power creep and I don't want to support overpriced terrible writing and phoned-in art as was found in Psychic Awakening Pariah. I think starting the release of Charadon now is far too early, it should have been pushed back to 2022 when more codices are out. Mono-Wych Cult rules is not something that needs to be in the Drukhari codex. It just seems weird that these are the armies that are being focussed on. DG, Drukhari, Imperial Knights and AdMech, what do these have in common?

The best-case scenario, in my opinion, would be a total split between narrative content and matched play content as others have asked for, but I don't have a problem with day 1 DLC assuming the rules are optional. You can only fit so many rules into a printed book, whether supplements are released day 1 or day 600 is irrelevant to me. I have even advocated that Psychic Awakening Pariah should have included pre-LC, custom dynasties could have been in Pariah and if people wanting to run custom dynasties then needed Pariah as well I don't think that would be terrible assuming they were balanced. Going all of 8th without a campaign book and the same mostly-dull rules was dumb. As long as rules are not OP in order to sell books, I am happy. The problem with combining matched play with campaign supplements is that GW is incentivised to create OP rules to sell books. Make the weird Rust armies illegal in matched play and the bad incentives go away.

I got up in arms about Total War Warhammer day 1 DLC, but a big part of that was it being coupled for free with pre-ordering and I think pre-ordering is the real crime because it is harder to get your money back than to never spend it in the first place. I never got my money back from WC3 Reforged, would I have purchased it if I had not pre-ordered? Probably not, but I already paid and I hoped my investment would pay off with more development. Whether the day 1 DLC had been part of the base game in Total Warhammer meant nothing since the faction was unfun anyways.

GW is never going to get balance right whether they have 2 years or 5 years to balance an edition. Whether they release rules all at once like index 8th or piecemeal through codexes and campaigns like 8th proper. Best we can hope for getting big tournaments to show GW what is OP and then them not accidentally nerfing Ogryn instead of Bullgryn

Changing Marines to 2W this edition was the wrong choice, Space Marines got more than their fair share of attention last edition, with both SM and CSM getting two codexes and SM getting countless supplements in addition to a psychic awakening book with rules. I can appreciate it would be bad optics to release CSM, TS and GK before Drukhari but 1W Chosen vs 2W Tacticals does not fly. 10th edition would be a perfect time to give (C)SM 2W, fit it in with all the other presumably major changes 10th will bring as one of the even-numbered editions. GW could combine this timing with releasing Emperor's Children and World Eaters models and codices. The need for SM, BA, DA, DW and SW all at the start of the edition is pretty gross but also necessitated by the terrible balance of the last SM Codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nope.

If they were 40 USD I might have thought about it.

At 50 USD I could have still been convinced for the collecting purposes.

At 60 USD my tolerance was broken. If it's 2 books, 3, 4, each at 60 bucks... it's just too far for some rules that will be invalidated in a month or two, left behind by FAQs, or otherwise bad right off the bat, and, what, a handful of pages of lore on an area of space that I don't even care about? Ugh...

GW needs to stick to being a model company and not a bookseller.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Occurs to me that I never looked up the price of the Charadon book in Oz...

*opens GW webstore*

Holy gak! AUD$98. They want almost $100 for that thing. It's more than a Codex. The DE Codex has over 100 pages. This campaign book doesn't make it to triple digits.

What the feth are they thinking?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not buying it because it's focused on Cult Mechanicus rather than Skitarii.
It focuses on the Adeptus Mechanicus. Your slavish devotion to that old distinction that existed purely because of corporate reasons and nothing to do with the fluff of 40k is getting old, Kan.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/23 22:10:46


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in nl
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





 H.B.M.C. wrote:


 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm not buying it because it's focused on Cult Mechanicus rather than Skitarii.
It focuses on the Adeptus Mechanicus. Your slavish devotion to that old distinction that existed purely because of corporate reasons and nothing to do with the fluff of 40k is getting old, Kan.


Well for once he might actually have a point though as the Army you can build from the book is pure AdMech by dropping all Skitarii units from your list.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




The content is of no interest to me and the price is way beyond my "might pick it up for the pretty pictures and some fluff" limit.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What the feth are they thinking?


I almost feel like this is that test pricing like with the BotP box. People should really just not buy this.

   
Made in it
Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I won't buy it. I could be interested in the rules for the Knight Freeblade Lance, but I can wait for them... indefinitely. I already played a huge number of games in the past years with an unplayable army.

GW taught me that my army can lag behind for an indefinite period of time and I can still have fun. And if I haven't, it's on ne, not in them

So, I'll wait till I can get it second hand, I guess. I'm totally immune to FOMO and meta-chasing impulses thanks to GW schizoid publishing schedule.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I have never bought a campaign book. I'm hardly likely to start doing that now.
Core rules and codex for my army, maybe a supplement. That's more than enough to keep me going for 3 years. I don't need constant rules changes. Free FAQ style fixes are good though, I like that bit.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Cronch wrote:
If this book was narrative only it'd sell as badly as all narrative-only books do. matched drives sales of books.

That being said, this one is still an overpriced cash grab.



I don’t think we can say that. Have they even attempted a narrative only campaign book lately? Not a mission pack, but a full on campaign book?
Either way, you’re spot on about the cash grab though!

I’m still in the camp that had this been a cool campaign book in the spirit of the I:A books, and had narrative only rules, we’d have been all over. We mostly play competitive type games but the rules churn/bloat is a bit much and a fun narrative campaign would have been great.


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




Tycho wrote:
Cronch wrote:
If this book was narrative only it'd sell as badly as all narrative-only books do. matched drives sales of books.

That being said, this one is still an overpriced cash grab.



I don’t think we can say that. Have they even attempted a narrative only campaign book lately? Not a mission pack, but a full on campaign book?
Either way, you’re spot on about the cash grab though!

I’m still in the camp that had this been a cool campaign book in the spirit of the I:A books, and had narrative only rules, we’d have been all over. We mostly play competitive type games but the rules churn/bloat is a bit much and a fun narrative campaign would have been great.



As one of the people who bought the original Age of Sigmar campaign books I have to unfortunately agree with Cronch. I've never met someone in person who also has even one of those books
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Even this book which looks like cut content from Codexes also has even more content spread across multiple issues of White Dwarf.
Now the DLC has DLC.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Lord Damocles wrote:
Even this book which looks like cut content from Codexes also has even more content spread across multiple issues of White Dwarf.
Now the DLC has DLC.


Wait what now?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes, there is a Charadon Flashpoint series in White Dwarf.

Just like there was for Beyond the Veil, just like there is for AoS. The content in all three is mostly theatres of war, and a handful of secondaries/ agendas/ relics. It is all 100% optional, none of it affects the meta.

This is not new.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Occurs to me that I never looked up the price of the Charadon book in Oz...

*opens GW webstore*

Holy gak! AUD$98. They want almost $100 for that thing. It's more than a Codex. The DE Codex has over 100 pages. This campaign book doesn't make it to triple digits.

What the feth are they thinking?

'Best year ever' and despite Australians constantly posting how bad their pricing is, there's a conspicuous amount of them who keep buying it anyway and then wonder why they go higher still.

My favourite is Outer Circle on YouTube, half of his videos complaining about pricing, then a bunch of others showing off the new armies he bought.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 15:32:21


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






PenitentJake wrote:
The content in all three is mostly theatres of war, and a handful of secondaries/ agendas/ relics. It is all 100% optional, none of it affects the meta.

It's just horse armour...
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




Additional content in White Dwarf is a thing as old as the hills though. It's not an example of them copying the DLC model.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






What's a Charadon?

Nope. Not buying.

Edit:

$60?!?! are they joking? They show the table of contents on their website too, the glossary starting at page 96. Not even 100 pages of content and they're charging 60$? GW can GTFO with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/24 18:14:36


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





but but but...the content Insectum ! You need it !
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Im optimistic thanks to this thread. Hopefuly more people will stop supporting this "4 pages of rules for £35" book model.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Even for a premium brand there is such a thing as a price limit.

They have hit that.
This should have been a soft cover book priced like a CA. It still wouldn't have sit well with me as a commercial practice, but that's another issue.

Same thing that is keeping me away from the new Aelves in AoS. Nice sculpts (some of them), but those prices are simply too high.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/25 17:15:17


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




I keep thinking about the transition from softback to hardback army books, the price increases and how much less I bought as a consequence.

There are two 8th edition fantasy books still on a nearby shelf in reach of this computer. There are eleven softback books from the edition before that. And many, many more from older editions in a box.

The closest thing to a 'campaign book' is the battle missions book from 2008. 96 pages, just like this but its largely back to back content all the way through. 2 pages of fluff text on a faction then 6 pages of missions, repeating over and over.
Price tag is gone, but I know for certain it wasn't anywhere near $60.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, switching to softback and dropping prices would certainly move more volume. I don't think they ever should have switched.

   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Agreed, I far preferred soft back rulebooks. The additional expense of hardbacks isn't worth it considering the shelf life of printed gw rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hardback has a higher profit margin; it only costs a quid or so more, but you can charge double because it looks "premium." I'm on record here before as saying I doubt they make much profit even on the hardback books, and that it's all about motivating people to buy the plastic that really makes them money...if they went to softback and had to lower their prices by the normal amount that entails within the industry, that'd probably wipe out their margin entirely.

Which doesn't mean what they're doing is good, it just means it's outdated. Rules should be released digitally for free or very low cost; they should embrace the real reason for the rules, which is to sell the plastic they actually make money from. Getting the rules to a larger number of people would do more for their profits than making slightly more per book on releases nobody buys because they're so expensive.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:
Hardback has a higher profit margin; it only costs a quid or so more, but you can charge double because it looks "premium." I'm on record here before as saying I doubt they make much profit even on the hardback books, and that it's all about motivating people to buy the plastic that really makes them money...if they went to softback and had to lower their prices by the normal amount that entails within the industry, that'd probably wipe out their margin entirely.

Which doesn't mean what they're doing is good, it just means it's outdated. Rules should be released digitally for free or very low cost; they should embrace the real reason for the rules, which is to sell the plastic they actually make money from. Getting the rules to a larger number of people would do more for their profits than making slightly more per book on releases nobody buys because they're so expensive.

Exactly how much less would you expect gw to sell soft backs compared to hardbacks? Kill Team books are soft backs and are $40, about $35 with most discounts. That's pretty expensive for a soft back. I'd say they get pretty good margins on those.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




If they only reduced it by the cost savings, your $60 book would only go to a ~$58 book. If they reduce it by more than that, their profit margins go down; that's just math. Assuming I am right that they are like every other publisher and their profit margin on books is not particularly high (though honestly, it probably is pretty high at that ridiculous $60 price point), there isn't much room to cut prices by removing the hardbacking. If they are committed to a particular profit margin, hardback vs softback isn't going to give the consumer a significant break.

What's really expensive about producing those books is the glossy full color; the binding only adds a quid or so vs softback.

Now if they abandoned the premium look entirely and switched to black and white stuff printed on normal softback novel quality paper...that'd save a lot. But it'd also defeat the whole purpose of why they print them. They're not selling you rules, not really - they' selling you inspiration to buy more plastic models, and to do that, they need the glossy full color.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/25 23:54:04


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:
If they only reduced it by the cost savings, your $60 book would only go to a ~$58 book. If they reduce it by more than that, their profit margins go down; that's just math. Assuming I am right that they are like every other publisher and their profit margin on books is not particularly high (though honestly, it probably is pretty high at that ridiculous $60 price point), there isn't much room to cut prices by removing the hardbacking. If they are committed to a particular profit margin, hardback vs softback isn't going to give the consumer a significant break.

What's really expensive about producing those books is the glossy full color; the binding only adds a quid or so vs softback.

Now if they abandoned the premium look entirely and switched to black and white stuff printed on normal softback novel quality paper...that'd save a lot. But it'd also defeat the whole purpose of why they print them. They're not selling you rules, not really - they' selling you inspiration to buy more plastic models, and to do that, they need the glossy full color.

Gw obviously mark up their book prices significantly, but they're turning a profit on those $40 Kill Team books, otherwise they wouldn't be selling them at that price. Glossy 4-color printing (and that's what gw using, I don't see any special PMS colors in gw products) isn't that expensive depending on scale. I can't find any data on typical codex print runs, do you know any? I could put a quick estimate on man-hours needed for printing a codex with those, at a US plant of course.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't know; GW tends to keep that data pretty close its chest, I'm not sure it's something you can find out.

I don't know that they do turn a big profit on the kill team books. Because kill team is intended as a starter drug to get you into the hobby, they may well be willing to sell them at a much lower or even non-existent profit margin, the same way that milk is sold at or below cost at the supermarket to get you to buy other stuff. That's presumably why they aren't hardback - so they can put the lowest possible price on them, to keep the barrier to entry low.

I mean that said, obviously they make a big profit on the ones they sell direct to consumers from the webstore, because there's no middleman there. The price they sell to retailers is about 60% of MSRP, right?
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:
I don't know; GW tends to keep that data pretty close its chest, I'm not sure it's something you can find out.

I don't know that they do turn a big profit on the kill team books. Because kill team is intended as a starter drug to get you into the hobby, they may well be willing to sell them at a much lower or even non-existent profit margin, the same way that milk is sold at or below cost at the supermarket to get you to buy other stuff. That's presumably why they aren't hardback - so they can put the lowest possible price on them, to keep the barrier to entry low.

I mean that said, obviously they make a big profit on the ones they sell direct to consumers from the webstore, because there's no middleman there. The price they sell to retailers is about 60% of MSRP, right?

Yes, but the Kill Team Elites book goes for $40 MRSP, and is 144 pages. A book with a similar page count, on similar paper, printed at a US plant would go for about $15-$20 MRSP, coming from my plant. These would be what you'd call "coffee table books", as well as cook books and the like (no advertisements to offset the cost), with what I assume are similar print runs to typical codexes. And that's for US manufacturing, most gw books are printed in China. I think you underestimate how much gw marks up their printed material.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






In order for GW to make a profit the wholesale price has to be profitable. There's no way they're pricing wholesale at a loss. That makes everything beyond wholesale gravy for GW, and I'd guess the wholesale price (the price your FLGS pays to stock the product) is at least 40% off the retail price.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: